"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On 19 Oct 2006 05:25:10 -0700, "Andy" wrote:


Mizter T wrote:
asdf wrote:

On 18 Oct 2006 15:21:33 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

I've thought about this a bit more and my above explanation (with the
Tottenham Hale via Highbury & Islington to Camden Road example)
could've been a bit clearer.

The critical point is that if you're using PAYG for any portion of
your
Tube journey you must touch in and out at the place where you move
from
PAYG territory to non-PAYG territory.

Are you sure about this? This is a long-standing question on this
group (at least for those who care about such things, of whom I'm
perhaps the only one), and is still mentally filed in my "unanswered"
category. IIRC it was originally raised by someone who wanted to
travel from Ilford to Liverpool Street (both have barriers with
validators) on a Z34 Travelcard on Oyster, and wanted to know if the
extension would be deducted correctly or if they'd have to leave the
train at Stratford and use a platform validator there, but no one
seemed to know the answer.

I'm 99.9% certain about it.

I've just has a look into the Ilford to Liverpool Street query you were
wondering about. My two sources for information are the list of NR
routes where Oyster PAYG is accepted [1], and also the new map that
illustrates which NR routes accept Oyster PAYG [2]. Basically my
conclusion is that the passenger needs to touch-in on the platform
reader at Stratford. I'm 99.9% certain about this as well (because I'm
annoying like that).

I'll presume that the passenger, Mr X, has a zones 3&4 Travelcard
loaded on their Oyster card.

~~~~~
The Ilford to Stratford NR portion of the journey is an NR route where
PAYG is *not accepted*. However Mr X has a Z34 Travelcard for that part
of the journey, which is fine. The gates at Ilford (if there are any)
will let Mr X through as he has a valid Travelcard on his Oyster - but
they don't provide an entry point or onto the PAYG system and
electronically 'mark' his Oyster card , because PAYG *isn't accepted*
from Ilford.

The Stratford to Liverpool Street portion of the journey is a NR route
where PAYG *is accepted*. However Mr X has not yet entered onto the
PAYG system - the Ilford to Stratford journey has been carried out
under the auspices of his Z34 Travelcard. He thus needs to enter onto
the PAYG system - by touching-in on the platform reader at Stratford
he's 'marked' his Oyster card with an entry point and can then continue
to Liverpool Street.

On exiting the gates at Liverpool Street the system will adjust his
balance to ensure the correct fare for Stratford to Liverpool Street is
from his card - in the case of Mr X that'll be a zones 1&2 single
journey, as his Travelcard already covers zone 3.
~~~~~

The critical thing is to 'mark' your Oyster card when you enter and
leave the PAYG system (in this case at Stratford). Merely using an
Oyster card to pass through automatic gates at an NR station that
*doesn't accept PAYG* (such as Ilford) is no good - said gates merely
check to see if you have a valid Travelcard on your Oyster, they don't
do anything else whatsoever.


Hope that's cleared things up.



Actually, I don't think that the system works like this. I have a Zone
1-2 Annual Oyster Travelcard and on occasion I travel to Moor Park. If
I look at the pre-pay journeys, on the website, my 'touching in' in
Zone 2 doesn't appear and I just see the correct amount (GBP1.00 on a
Saturday) deducted upon exiting at Moor Park. Going the other way, GBP
1.00 is deducted on entry at Moor Park and the Exit (in Zone 1) is
marked up as GBP 0.00. The systems seems to be assuming that I have
started the journey within my Travelcard zones and the pre-pay only
comes into play when I touch in/out outside the Travelcard validity.

So, for the Ilford - Liverpool Street journey, if it is all on Oyster,
the extension to Liverpool Street should be charged upon exiting, using
the travelcard validity as 'start' point. The Oystercard helpline have
confirmed that this is how the prepay works for extensions out of Zones
1-2, I'd assume that it works the same going in as well.

My head hurts!

There is a big difference between the two examples being discussed. The
Liv St - Ilford example is a composite journey where there is part
interavailability at LU fares and then the remaining part is at NR fares
/ validity.

Liv St - Stratford is LU fares / interavailable with the Central Line /
Oyster PAYG is valid.
Stratford - Ilford is NR fares / no interavailability / Oyster PAYG is
not valid.

There is no way that the gates at Ilford (yes there are some there) can
do anything to the PAYG part of an Oyster card. It can only process
Travelcard / OAP / Blind / Disabled validity in Oyster format.

On ALL gates the gate will always read and write to the card or the
magnetic ticket if it is valid. Invalid tickets or cards or not written
to. While the gate at Ilford can write to the Oyster card to say "Entry
at Ilford" or "Exit at Ilford" it cannot make a deduction or add back to
PAYG value because that product is not valid at that location. At
Liverpool Street the gates will only ever expect to see a LU or DLR
origin (if someone has changed at Stratford to the main line to Liv St),
Stratford or Seven Sisters or Tottenham Hale or Walthamstow Central
(given the PAYG validity that works there). I do not know if the
validators at the above places have a special code for PAYG or whether
they use the standard designation that is normally encoded as the
origin.

On the LU station to Moor Park example the crucial difference is that
this is a journey wholly and completely at LU fares with LU Oyster and
PAYG functionality at the start and end of the trip. Therefore the
system can apply the rules successfully as you have experienced.

You are correct in that if you use part PAYG and part Travelcard
validity on your Oyster card for a journey that depending on where you
start and end then you may only value deducted on exit (when out of
zone) or deduction on entry (entering out of zone) and possibly added
back when exiting (inside travelcard validity) or further deducted if
you have travelled across London and gone back outside your Travelcard
validity.

Hopefully that is partly (!) answers this mini debate. On ASDF's
question I think Mizter T is right but I can fully understand why there
is confusion about needing to leap off, validate, leap on again at
Stratford.


An interesting oyster journey cropped up for one of my work colleagues a few
months ago.

He had Z2-3 Monthly and always has a pre-pay amount on his oyster if he need
to go into / via zone 1.

He did a journey as follows :
Entered (Swiped in) at Hampstead Northern Line,
travelled to Moorgate,
changed to circle line,
Exited (Swiped out) at Liverpool Street and met someone for an airport train
Entered Liverpool Street (BR / One) and swiped in
Exited at Tottenham Hale, but forgot to swipe out.

He asked me what would happen to his oyster as he did not swipe out. I said
he would get an incomplete journey and be charged £1.50 for the Hampstead to
Liv St journey. And then a £5 penalty fare from Liv St to Tott Hale.

I advised to him to check his journey history at his station and see the
ticket office. When he checked this, he had no money deducted at all. The
Hampstead to Liv St section was listed but not charged. The Liv.St BR
section had incomplete journey.

Any thoughts ? I thought the least he would get would be the £5 BR charge.