On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 16:38:38 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote in
:

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 14:05:59 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

What would you be charged if you forgot to validate on the tram,
validated on the platform at Wimbledon, and either (a) left the
station through the barriers, or (b) continued on the tube and exited
at anothr station?

A couple of assumptions firstly - if incorrect then let me know in a
reply. Please note that I do not know for certain but I giving what I
think would be the answer based on my knowledge of the system. I am
more than happy to be corrected by those who know for certain.

a) You've arrived at Wimbledon by tram and the first validation is
on the Tramlink platform.
b) You are using PAYG exclusively.

If you validate at the tram link platform then your card will be set
for entry and will deduct £1 or 80p depending on time of day.
If you then proceed to exit via the barriers I would expect you will
not be able to as the last entry will be recorded as "In" at Wimbledon
Tramlink a few minutes earlier. Why would you wish to exit? It is
illogical - you should be on a tram to Croydon!

If you then did your (b) then you would be charged for Tramlink as
above and then charged £4 on exit from LU as there would be no entry
transaction for a LU journey and thus you have not validated correctly
and would have an unresolved journey.



That's what I thought. I've never done the journey myself, but I bet
you're right.

Basically, if you forget to touch in at eg Dundonald Road because the
tram is about to leave, and the tram is packed, and you genuinely try
and show you're not cheating the system by touching in on the platform,
you will in fact be penalised.

No you won't. I didn't say anything about a penalty. I said validating
at Wimbledon and then trying to exit would be illogical. A quick check
of the card and a verbal explanation to whoever is on the gateline at
Wimbledon would explain matters.

You have expanded the particular example with extra details.

If you simply pretend the tram journey never happened, you'd be charged
£4.

Only if you fail to touch "in" on one of the validators near the
District Line platforms.

If you try and show your honesty, you'd be charged £4.80 or £5.

No - see above. You should validate "in" before boarding an LU train at
Wimbledon. £4 will be deducted but on exit - providing you validate -
you will be charged the correct Oyster fare for the journey undertaken
from Wimbledon by tube.

It is ridiculous, and shows just how draconian this £4 measure really
is.

No it does not.

Because in an ideal world, the system should recognise honesty and
simply charge the £0.80 or £1 and nothing else.

But it will do that with respect to the tramlink journey anyway. How
can you not be charged more money if you make a trip on the tube?

You are mixing up your scenarios and adding details that partly
invalidate the initial explanation I provided.

I don't wish to sound too dramatic, but LUL has effectively
singlehandedly destroyed two important mainstays of the way we live.
Basically:

(a) the customer is always right
(b) you are innocent until proven guilty.

What this system does is charge you £4 assuming you're guilty, and then
you have to try and prove your innocence. And when you try and be honest
by touching in on the platform, you are further penalised. The system is
an ass.

Sorry but the system is not an ass. This is the first stored value
application *in the world* where it has been deployed onto an urban
network without full gating and separation between all modes. Hong Kong
and Singapore have full gating and full separation of the MTR and KCRC
systems. There are no side gates, open interchanges or ungateable
stations there. The system was designed in from day one - London cannot
afford to do that. Therefore a cash based incentive is required to make
it worthwhile for people to comply with the very simple "in", "out"
validation principle.

The use of the £4 charge was only introduced after the more customer
friendly £1 or £1.50 value deduction on entry concept was found to be
abused by a proportion of users. There would be plenty of people
(rightly) screaming from the rooftops if TfL did not do something to
reduce the fraud risk.

The fact is that PAYG is a valuable additional product that is
attractive to a part of the public transport market. Coupled with the
capping concept it will provide a very easy to use product in time - I
would accept that where we are now with respect to One Day travelcards
and NR validity is very complex and confusing.

Not just LUL, but all over transport for London, especially the little
****s who are so quick to dish out parking tickets.

I can't recall TfL having parking enforcement - please slag off the
right people.

If I had boarded a tram at Dundonald Road and failed to touch in because
the tram was leaving, I would have done the honest thing and touched in
on the platform before leaving the system. And yet I'd be charged more
than if I tried to cheat it on purpose.

No - see above.

It's like that story I mentioned a little while a go. A guy enters
Plaistow station and the barriers are open, walks through, remembers
that he should have touched in, and then turns and touches "out" not on
the open barrier but on one of the exits. He then goes to Mile End,
exits, and is charged £8.

In this day and age the system should see that it is actually
nonsensical to exit Plaistow and then 10 minutes or so later exit Mile
End and call it two unfinished journeys. But I guess we said goodbye to
good old common sense when we turned all our thinking over to computers.

Computers cannot apply the same thought process as a reasoning human
being can. You cannot expect a logic based system which has to read,
validate, decide, write and check data between card and gate to sit
there trying to apply reason.

While I understand your complaint the fact remains that it is highly
unlikely that Plaistow man will repeat his error in the future. I know
you won't agree because you clearly wish to keep complaining about this
aspect of the system but I can see no reason why it will be changed.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!