In message , at 13:57:03 on
Sat, 4 Aug 2007, Paul Corfield remarked:

For example, if you were using the barriers at Melton Mowbray station,
which will be run by East Midlands, but almost all the trains will be
New-XC, would you need to wave your EM or XC card? And what happens when
you change trains at Peterborough onto FCC, and next wave your card as you
leave the station at Huntingdon? Onto which bill (or from which prepay
reserve) would that journey be debited?

Some very fundamental issues need resolving here.

It must depend on the product you have pre-bought?

Assume all I have is a card with some cash on it (in effect lent by me
to the operator while un-used) or a combination of some cash and a
direct debit mandate to charge me whatever I use in excess of that cash.

If you have an Oyster like PAYG card valid on NR, surely the payment
will be made via Rail Settlement Plan in the normal manner

I think this is missing the point. That's about what'll happen when the
fare eventually reaches the settlement system.

No it is not missing the point. Any settlement of value from a card
would almost certainly have to go via RSP so far as a NR smartcard is
concerned. I cannot see them surrendering control over part of the
retailing and settlement system.

I'm not disputing that the fare will probably go through the current
settlement channel [as a matter of interest, do TOC specific fares do
that as well, and come back to the TOC 100% intact?]. It's more about
will every card have an "account" with every ToC's barriers.

But what if all I have is an SWT card, will the barriers recognise that
at Melton Mowbray, Peterborough and Huntingdon and send the relevant
messages back to SWT - who will then debit the fare from me and
afterwards pass it through the settlement system just like if I paid for
that fare at a SWT ticket office today.

Or will the barrier at Melton Mowbray say to both my SWT and XC cards
"Unrecognised card, you must use an EM card" (despite almost all the
trains being XC)?

It should not make any difference. An ITSO compatible card will be
recognised by all ITSO devices regardless of where that card was
originally used or where it is being used.

Unless you can convince me otherwise, ITSO is just a technical
specification. It's doesn't address the commercial relationships between
operators. For example, ITSO cards are used by Cheshire buses. But will
a Cheshire bus pass also be able to buy me a SWT ticket from Basingstoke
to Southampton? Not unless there is a commercial and financial tie-up.

I'm wondering if there will even be such a connection between different
ToC cards. (It's obvious there should be, but is that currently in the
plan?)

If the card held a ticket that was valid at the location you were at
then it would be accepted as being valid.

That assumes I have pre-bought a specific ticket, which removes the
majority of the flexibility. In other words I'm not just "touching in",
at a barrier, but previously have queue up to "touch in" at a machine
and tell it where I want to go to, so it can pre-load the ticket.

If the card held credit that either had to be deducted or
the card had to register an entry or exit transaction then it would
happen provided the validation equipment was working.

Only if the equipment where I enter and leave the network has a
commercial relationship with the card issuer. (Which raises issues if my
journey involves a National Rail/Tube transfer, perhaps.)

This is no different to the magnetic ticket being of a standard size,
having a common print field design for each ticket type, having a common
magnetic stripe design and being capable of being read and written to /
printed on by gates, ticket machines and hand held devices that are
designed to be compatible with the supporting ticket specifications.
Just think of the ITSO card being analogous to the credit card sized NR
magnetic ticket.

That's the physical compatibility, which is only part of the problem.

The card will hold products or value. Other devices read and interpret
and write back to the cards in accordance with the commercial rules for
those products. Where they were issued from or whose "value" they hold
is irrelevant.

As long as the place I'm using it has that commercial relationship,
which I'm beginning to think means that it has to be installed over the
whole network at once. Otherwise what happens if I finish my journey
somewhere that doesn't support my card.

To do anything other than have a common standard would result in the
anarchy your posts are envisaging. This explains why we tried so very
hard to get ATOC interested in Prestige so that the current
compatibility from magnetics could be carried forward. We didn't get
there but the ITSO compatibility programme for Oyster should get us to
the right place as well as the TOCs working with TfL in the London area
to get their retailing and validation sorted out.

Getting Oyster accepted on National Rail in the general London area will
certainly help prove the system.
--
Roland Perry