On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 17:06:18 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:
However all is not clear - there is something I've been intending to
query with regards to the new 2008 TfL Fares booklet - available here
as a PDF...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-08-01-02.pdf
On page 17, underneath the table for the different Oyster daily
capping rates, there is this text - the first bit about peak/off-peak
times is exactly the same as I described above, it's the second bit
about London Overground (LO) that's interesting...
---quote---
On the Tube and DLR: peak times are
0430-0930 Monday to Friday (except
Public Holidays). Off-Peak is at all other times.
For details of peak and off-peak times on
London Overground, please see page 21.
---/quote---
OK, let's turn to page 21. There's a table of Oyster PAYG fares for
London Overground - and at the top of the table is the description for
the two columns - "(Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 1900)*"
and then
"(All other times including public holidays)".
If we follow the asterisk to the text under the column, we'll find
this intriguing footnote:
---quote---
*For local journeys, Watford Junction to Euston
inclusive, these fares apply as follows:
Towards Euston:
Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 0930.
From Euston:
Monday to Friday from 1600 and before 1900.
---/quote---
I'm genuinely confused as to what that means - it could mean that all
journeys on the Watford Jn - Euston line will be treated differently
to the rest of LU and LO in not just simply charging the more
expensive PAYG fare between 7am-7pm - in which case Bakerloo
passengers would also benefit from these cheaper fares on the shared
stretches.
It means exactly this. If you stay on the Euston - Watford line then
you benefit from these lower PAYG charges irrespective of operator.
However as soon as step off the line either by changing to LU at Queens
Park, LOROL at Willesden (NLL / WLL) or LU at Euston you immediately
resume the normal charge rates between 0700 and 1900 M-F.
In effect outside the peaks or peak direction you're on the weekend
charge rates as I understand matters for the Euston - Watford service.
This is the first real application of differential fares by time and
direction. I think it will take some time for people to be accustomed to
it and I can see the potential for confusion when people change
operators and see their overall through fare rise if they re-enter or
exit the system at times when the higher charges apply. This will be
particularly the case if people are travelling near the shoulders of
either the Watford line time bands or the wider time bands applicable to
the main charging rates for PAYG (near to 0700 and near to 1900). For
example travelling from say South Kenton into Zone 1 via Euston you
might wish to linger a little if you arrived at Euston at 18.50 before
heading to the Tube as you'd get the cheaper price all the way through
if you re-entered after 1900. That's certainly how it has been
explained to me by someone who took the time to phone me to point out
these issues.
Of course, as Watford Junction isn't in a zone ("zone W" being a term
solely intended for internal TfL use) then things get complicated
here. I suppose every journey to/from Watford Jn will be charged, and
there won't be any capping - thus someone who goes between Watford Jn
and Euston several times a day will be capped at the zones 1-8 cap,
plus will have a boundary zone 8 to Watford Jn fare charged on top of
that (which I guess could be the same as a Watford High St - Watford
Jn fare).
Go back and read the prices that I published at your request in an
earlier post. Yes there are caps that apply specifically to Watford
Junction - they were in the post!!!!!!
I really don't know - I can see all sorts of possibilities, but
without exact information on how things will be working to/from
Watford Junction, including a table of fares and confirmation of
whether there will be a "zone W" cap or not, it's all just
speculation. Paul C - can you help!!!
There isn't space to replicate all the pricing information but there are
prices for Travelcards, PAYG charge rates and caps that apply for all
applicable zone combinations within the zones plus a smaller range of
Zones to "W". If you stop and think about it there have to be or else
none of this works properly.
As Mr Thant has explained the complication undoubtedly arises because
pricing for the line remains with the main TOC - London Midland. As I
have said until I am blue in the face the whole PAYG interface with the
TOCs will be immensely complicated because of their retained rights to
price their traffic flows. There has to be some sort of "logic" between
the various pricing regimes or else it becomes a nonsense. What's
perhaps concerning (IMO) is that this first major application doesn't
seem very logical although to be fair to London Midland none of us know
what the cash fares will be or how cheap day travel will be priced for
cash payers.
All existing Overground literature is almost silent about the fact that
cash fares and cheap day tickets are available across the network - it's
being portrayed that the only game in town is PAYG with Travelcards in
second place.
--
Paul C
Admits to working for London Underground!