Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:13 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:
Adult PAYG fares will be charged but there is a discounted daily off
peak cap. Note that it is only off peak travel that gains a
discount under this system.
Off-peak being defined how for this purpose, pray?
As per Off Peak One Day Travelcard times - i.e. after 09.30 M-F. This
is no different to the existing off peak capping rules.#
Whilst I managed to get in a great muddle about the PAYG pricing on
the Watford - Euston line, I'm pretty sure that on this issue the TfL
2008 Fares booklet is misleading.
Page 17 deals with Oyster daily price capping, and there is a table of
all the different peak and off-peak caps.
The table merely includes two different columns labelled "Peak" and
"Off-peak" - underneath the table is the explanatory text, which
reads...
---quote---
On the Tube and DLR: peak times are
0430-0930 Monday to Friday (except
Public Holidays). Off-Peak is at all other times.
For details of peak and off-peak times on
London Overground, please see page 21.
---/quote---
Of course page 21 doesn't provide any information about differences in
how the peak and off-peak cap are applied on London Overground,
because they're no applied any differently. All page 21 shows are that
there are different PAYG single fares that apply at different times on
the Watford - Euston line - in internal lingo, the times when
'standard' (i.e. the more expensive) and 'discount' (i.e. the cheaper)
fares apply.
Thus far all Oyster literature has been very circumspect in using the
terms "peak" and "off-peak" solely in relation to the 0930 shift from
peak to off-peak (on both Oyster daily price capping and Day
Travelcards). It has never muddled the waters by describing the two
bands of PAYG fares as peak or off-peak, it has merely defined these
two bands by the times when they are charged ('standard' between
0700-1900 weekdays and 'discount' at all other times).
However the text above really does muddle them all together,
completely unnecessarily AFAICS as the times of peak and off-peak in
terms of Oyster daily capping remain totally unchanged.
One reading the above information might be led to believe that they
will be subject to a peak cap if they use the Watford - Euston line
between 1600-1900 on weekdays - which of course they won't be (but in
a way could be believed, especially in the context of other operators
cracking down on off-peak fares in the evening rush-hour e.g. FCC's
prohibition against using the return portion of off-peak tickets on
trains leaving London trains in the evening rush).
Whilst I may have got spectacularly muddled about other issues, on
this issue I'm pretty clear - the text on page 17 appears to be
muddled and misleading. Is there anything I'm missing?
You may well be charged a fare at the higher price that applies between
07.00 - 19.00 but if that is after 09.30 then the off peak cap applies.
Alternatively if there is only one trip prior to 09.30 and loads
afterwards your daily charge may well be the fare prior to 09.30 plus
the off peak cap where this is less then the Peak Cap level (typically
the Peak One Day Travelcard price less 50p). Oyster will always go back
and do the sums to ensure the lowest price or combination of prices is
charged.
One thing I have read on utl several times is people saying that if
you use your Oyster once before 0930 then you will automatically be
working towards the peak cap, and will miss out on the off-peak cap.
Of course, as you explain above, this just ain't so.
In several scenarios passengers will be charged the off-peak cap plus
the cost of a pre-0930 peak time journey - and this could particularly
be the case if the journey mix doesn't involve zone 1, or involves
buses.
Some examples (not for the benefit of Paul C, of course, but anyone
else still stupid enough to be reading what I've got to say)...
* A passenger travels from Earl's Court to Wimbledon and then back
again, all before 0930. They would be charged 2 x £1 fares on Oyster
PAYG. Later, after 0930, they then travel to Heathrow and back to
Earl's Court, then again to Wimbledon and back. All the off-peak
(post-0930) journeys will be capped at the z2-6 off-peak cap of £4.30,
whilst the two peak journeys will be charged separately at a total of
£2 [2 x £1] - so the total amount debited from the balance during the
day would be be £6.30 [£4.30 + £2], which is less than the z2-6 peak
cap of £7.90.
* A passenger travels on a single bus pre-0930 and is charged 90p. The
passenger then travels on several more buses during the day and is
capped at the daily bus cap of £3. The same passenger then makes a
return journey between Tooting Broadway (z3) and Clapham Common (z2)
before 7pm - the Oyster fare for that journey would be £1.80 (the
'standard' that applies between 0700-1900). The running total after
the outward journey to Clapham Common would thus be £4.80 [£1.80 + the
£3 bus cap]. The z2-6 off-peak cap of £4.30 won't have kicked in yet
because of that single pre-0930 peak time bus journey.
On the return to Tooting Broadway the running total would be £3.60
[(£1.80 x 2) + the £3 bus cap], were it not for the fact that the z2-6
off-peak cap would have kicked in by this point. The daily bus cap
will thus be converted, minus a single 90p bus fare for that pre-0930
bus journey, into a z2-6 off-peak cap at £4.30. The passenger will
thus be charged £5.20 [£4.30 + 90p].
If however the passenger had made the return journey between Tooting
Broadway and Clapham Common _after_ 1900, then the 'discount' Oyster
fare of £1 would have been charged. Therefore they would be charged 2
x £1 fares + the £3 bus = £5, because that is cheaper than the £5.20
that is charged above if the Tube journeys had been made before 7pm.
If one of the two Tube journeys was in fact made before 1900 then the
total would again be £5.20, but I'll let you work that one out for
yourself if you're still reading this!
Confused? - you will be.
--
Paul C
Indeed! Having worked through all of the above, there's a bit of me
that's left feeling that flat fares might not be such a bad idea after
all!
The thing that really muddies the waters is the two separate time
bands - the peak/off-peak change at 0930, and the
'standard' (0700-1900) and 'discount' (all other times) Oyster PAYG
fares.
A while back Dave Arquati wrote a piece for an Imperial College
magazine that I saw on the web (but can't find now - maybe it ain't
there any more), and he used a phrase that has stuck in my mind - that
users will have to "Trust in thy Oyster"!
Oyster is a smart card, the problem being is that perhaps it's just a
bit too smart! Like many others here I like to know how it works, but
some of the calculations are pretty complex - such as in situations
where the cap that is applied can change dynamically according to the
situation. I haven't got the brain power to work it out now (!), but I
suspect there are scenarios where a peak cap can morph into an off-
peak cap with the peak journeys charged separately (for example when
the passenger travels to distant zones after 0930).
It is certainly possible for two caps to be applied - e.g. a £3 bus
cap for several peak journeys then a z1-6 off-peak cap of £6.30 for
several off-peak journeys, resulting in a total of £9.30 -
significantly cheaper than the z1-6 peak cap of £13.30.
What would be great would be for the Oyster online journey history to
offer some kind of simple visual breakdown of journeys on any one day
when a cap (or caps) had been applied, and to divvy up each of the
day's journeys into appropriate groupings so as to show the logic that
lay behind what was charged that day. I'm living in cloud cuckoo land
of course!