MIG wrote:

On 15 Feb, 16:12, Mizter T wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:43, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 15 Feb, 15:35, "John" wrote:

Not living within
the TfL area I've only just found out they are allowed to do this i.e.
charge more than the daily price cap, which I consider sharp practice to
say the least, as this means the cap is in fact not the max you can pay.
Is this fact widely known?

I think so. Not touching in and out is considered a potential fraud,
so the £4 charge is a sort-of penalty fare rather than part of the
normal charging regime.

I don't think the fraud argument makes sense, because every single
travelcard journey could involve the same fraud. I think it's a case
of the system charging people because it can. Even if everyone with a
zone 1 - 2 travelcard could be assumed to have nipped off to an
ungated zone 6 station, there is no practical way of charging them for
it.


We've been over this very recently, and as things stand there is no
easy way to implement the same regime for those who have Travelcards
loaded on their Oyster cards as exists for those who are solely using
Oyster PAYG, because most National Rail stations in London (i.e. those
on routes that don't accept PAG) have no validators that would allow
an Oyster card holder to touch-in/out at the start/end of their trip.

Even if they all did - which I hope they will, when Oyster PAYG
becomes available on all NR routes in London, one would still be left
with the issue of someone holding, for example, a zones 1-3 Travelcard
yet travelling with an extension ticket from boundary zone 3 to
Brighton.

I agree that ungated stations are a potential issue with regards to NR
adopting Oyster PAYG, but they are one that could be tackled to an
extent with a proactive, intelligent and targeted approach to revenue
protection.

Besides I think it was far better that TfL closed one loophole. As has
been suggested before, I think there is something to be said for
proposing the notion that, broadly speaking, holders of Travelcards
are more likely to comply with the rules. In addition, this would
provide an added incentive to get NR stations in London gated and
hence staffed - something I and many others would welcome, though Luko
will be along in a minute to tell you that comprehensive gating is a
harbinger of the apocalypse.

Plus of course one must bear in mind that all ticketing systems are
imperfect.


(big snip)


Just a quick message to back up what Mr Thant has said. What I go into
below really is an edge case - I cannot think of any other instances
where standalone Oyster readers are not provided for passengers
interchanging between a paper ticket route and an Oyster PAYG route.

(Mister T's 'Edge case' example of lack of stand-alone Oyster readers
at Blackfriars and City Thameslink snipped)


It's not a rare case at all. It's the case at every single
Underground station where someone with a paper travelcard for certain
zones needs to travel to another zone. You have to get off and go to
the exit or else get stung.


You have of course mentioned this before, and I would simply suggest
you stop swimming against the flow and just get your Travelcard issued
on Oyster! I understand from past posts that you reside and work
within the London zones, so this option is certainly open to you. In a
post downthread I run through the concerns over surveillance that
surround Oyster, and I conclude that they are somewhat overblown -
though I would urge you to read that rather than simply respond to
this comment.

Many of those who have an out-boundary Travelcard season for commuting
into London will have it with validity in zones 1-6, e.g. Brighton -
R1256. Those who hold less than this, for example a Southend Stations
- R2356 (zones 2-6) for commuting to Canary Wharf could instead get a
rail-only season to a point in the zones and then rely on a season
Travelcard on Oyster, though unfortunately giving a definitive decree
on whether the train needs to stop at the ticket change over point
makes my brain melt (which is a bit of a cop-out I admit). This Canary
Wharf commuter could then use their Oyster card to travel into central
London/zone 1 from Docklands when they needed to by combining their
Travelcard and PAYG on Oyster.



Why oh why oh why won't they just sell reasonably-priced extension
tickets to people who can show a paper ticket/travelcard for part of
the journey? The punishment cash fares for not using Oyster won't
teach them any kind of lesson apart from not to use the Underground.


The whole point of the pricey paper ticket fares is, as you well know,
to move people off paper tickets and onto Oyster. Offering "reasonably-
priced extension tickets" to those with paper Travelcards is hardly
compatible with that aim.

If you do wish to avoid Oyster then one way making Tube journeys
beyond your Travelcard's zones is to buy a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard -
this costs £4.80 off-peak (i.e. after 0930). This is obviously cheaper
than buying 2 x £3 single extension fares on paper tickets (the £3
fare would cover all Tube journeys except those beyond zone 6 on the
Met line).

I do however quite disagree with your notions about the "punishment
cash fares" - I think that charging the 'max cash fare' does indeed
strongly get across the message that one needs to touch-in and out for
each and every journey. It's a bit harsh but I'd suggest it is
effective. I've had it happen to me - I was indeed annoyed when I
realised it had happened, but since then I've always been careful to
touch-in and out. I've heard similar stories from others, and it
hasn't led them to be despondent about the Oyster system as a whole.