On Jan 19, 11:17*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 19 Jan, 22:00, Andy wrote:





On Jan 19, 9:44*pm, Mizter T wrote:

On 19 Jan, 12:59, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

Better still, use DMUs and run it through to Aylesbury!

Indeed, a very interesting idea - has this ever been mooted before
because it's the first time I've heard of such a notion?
It's not as though the Met line is a stranger to DMUs of course.

If it happens, it'll be a Chiltern initiative, not TfL.
Boris won't fund it, but if it's commercially viable, Chiltern will be all
over it like a rash.
Provided they can spare the capacity over their lines, of course!

Of course Boris won't fund it, nor would Ken have either - it's
outside Greater London hence it's basically outside the purview of the
Mayor. I think Ken said something like he supported it in principle
but basically it wasn't for him to take it forward. It's basically up
to the burghers of Watford and the folk of Hertfordshire to make it
happen - not for them to fund it in it's entirety, but for them to
persuade central government that it's a worthy project.

Much of the Crossrail project is also outside the purview of the
Mayor, but this hasn't prevented TfL taking over full control. I don't
agree that TfL should fund it, but there should be a contribution, if
they are able to dispose of Watford Met station.

Parts of the Crossrail route are indeed outside the Mayor's
jurisdiction of Greater London. However the DfT and central government
decided that TfL would be responsible for the project, and thus when
the final agreement was signed in December it was signed by Lord
Adonis of the DfT and Mayor Bozza. This gave TfL 100% control of Cross
London Rail Links Ltd, the Crossrail company, which was previously
owned 50:50 by TfL and the DfT. Of course a hefty chunk of money,
£5.6bn, is coming directly from central government.

The difference with Crossrail is that it's regarded as instrumental to
the future prosperity of London (and hence Britain) - the Croxley Link
is not! The Croxley Link will principally benefit Watford (and
Hertfordshire).

I've no idea whether TfL would directly contribute money towards it -
though of course the money from any sale of Watford Met would go
towards the project. It's possible TfL's contribution could simply be
that of providing the Met line service - I don't think providing this
service to Watford either is or ever will be self-funding from farebox
revenue, running a railway is an expensive enterprise after all! (Or
am I wrong on that - are the extremities of the Met actually
profitable, to the extent they cover costs? I can't imagine this would
be the case.)

One should bear in mind that just under half of TfL's budget comes
from a central government grant anyway. This will certainly come with
a contingent condition that TfL has to provide Underground services on
their lines that run outside of the Greater London boundary, though
I've no idea if there is a minimum service specified though I rather
doubt there's anything that prescriptive.



I hadn't thought of the Chiltern cash angle - but Chiltern would never
be able to pay for something like that off their own bat, the most
they might do is contribute towards it... and I guess they'd want
something in return like perhaps a franchise extension.

I think that Chiltern would only need the cash for the provision of
the DMUs and staff, I don't think it is suggested that it'll be
another Evergreen project with Chiltern building the infrastructure as
well. TfL might even be able to supply the DMUs, as I imagine that the
Gospel Oak - Barking line will have been electrified before we see the
link built.

Re my comments on the "Chiltern cash angle" - my reading of Andrew
Heenan's post was that he was indeed seeming to suggest that Chiltern
might be tempted to actually front up some cash for the infrastructure
project itself - i.e. as a kind of Project Evergreen spin-off (or
should that be shoot-off!). But as I'm not Mr Heenan I can't know for
sure what he really meant!

Re the class 172 DMUs that are headed for the GOBLIN - actually these
are to be conventionally owned by a Rosco, Angel Trains, so as and
when London Overground don't need them any more then they'll be back
on the market I would think.


But I understood that the lease involves TfL as well as LOROL, so if
they are no longer needed on GOBLIN, TfL can retain them for other
uses, should they wish. LOROL are different from the other TOCs, as
they run the service with the stock that TfL provides (even if via a
ROSCO).

But it's hard to imagine the GOBLIN getting electrified any time soon
- that said I find it hard to imagine the Croxley Link happening any
time soon either.


I think it will all depend on the DfT electrification program, as and
when this happens. It is one of the most obvious routes for
diversionary purposes (see below)



Anyway don't think anyone's got any money for stuff like this at the
moment... unless that ghost of Keynes who's been hovering around
somewhat lately starts visiting Brown & co in their dreams in
earnest...

The DfT seem to have magiced £54 millon extra for the four tracking at
Camden Road from somewhere

The NLL upgrade was agreed a while back before the Treasury realised
that the dour and miserly bankers at RBS has taken magic mushrooms
before making their investment decisions. Also the NLL upgrade around
Camden was reduced in scope anyway, when it was realised that some of
the works would cost too much.


The £54 million I mentioned is the reinstallation of the original plan
at Camden, over and above the TfL funded works. There was some
discussion about this at the time and it will be phase II of the NLL
capacity works, after the Olympics.

See the press release he

http://nds.coi.gov.uk/environment/fu...partment=False

If this work does go ahead, then I could see Network Rail electrifying
the Gospel Oak - Barking line as a diversionary route before this
happens, if they can get the funding together. This electrification
could then be a test bed for the new techniques that they are planning
to reduce costs. I do recall mention that TfL were trying to get the
£54million diverted to electrification anyway.

If there is any money emanating from the DfT any time soon then I
would very much hope it is for making phase 2 of the East London Line
Extension happen - apparently the funding gap is £15 million, which is
not a great deal in the grand scheme of things with regards to rail
projects. But time is running out - I think the costings all revolve
around the current ELLX construction venture continuing on to build
phase 2. I think it would cost significantly more to set it all up
again from a cold start.

I don't disagree with this.