On Jul 3, 8:01*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

No - you stated "for now Overground is completely useless for most
journeys" - absolutely *no* qualifier about your statement only
applying south of the river. Given that LO is incredibly useful to a
good number of people - *that is a fact* - then I just pointing that
out.

I'm not denying it it's useful for the journeys that just happen to be
made by those people.

But I suspect that if you were to calculate the shortest journey between
every possible start point and every possible end point in the London
area, then LO would be no use at all for most (i.e. over 50%) of them,
because it doesn't penetrate south London (as well several large chunks
of north outer London).

Agreed. Just as South West Trains, taken in isolation, is also
"completely useless for most journeys", etc etc.


(However, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if anyone has actually done
such a culculation and found otherwise.)

What you appear to be saying is that it's useless for most of *your*
journeys - which is fine, although one could say that puts you in the
same 'blinkered Londoner' bracket that you were trying to shove Martin
into earlier on.

No, I'm definitely talking about all possible journeys as calculated
above.

OK. However given you originally said "Given that Oyster is still
completely useless on most journeys", a reasonable person might well
take that to mean the majority of journeys that are actually made - as
opposed to all possible journeys in London.


I'm not interested in placing blame with this organisation or that
one. I'm only describing the situation on the ground. That's all

No, you're interested in blowing off steam. And why not place blame -
it seems to be the root cause of why you're getting so steamed up
after all.

I'm not getting steamed up, just stating facts. *I'd forgotten how much
the Oyster enthusiasts in these groups hate being reminded of simple
facts.

I guess I'm bracketed as an "Oyster enthusiast" - fine, if that
pleases you. I think it's very useful, I think it's revolutionised
things on the routes/modes *where it is available* - which is why I'm
very enthusiastic, and *always have been*, for it to be rolled out
across NR in London.

Apart from anything else, I genuinely think it will encourage people
to venture further afield.


You can't simply look at the tickets and see how many you've got
left. Instead you have to mess about with your online balance and
stuff. That's annoying.

I agree that's a definite downside with smartcard ticketing, no doubt.
As I said in my reply to Martin, perhaps one day there will be
smartcards that offer a visual display of what your balance is and/or
when your season ticket is due to expire.

Like I said, I'm interested in facts about the real situation on the
ground, not hypotheical future speculation that might never happen.

It's *definitely* going to happen. I'd put a massive wager on that, if
such a bet was actually possible. Oyster readers, sitting as yet
unused and all wrapped up, have been installed at a great many NR
station in Greater London - and the installation programme is ongoing.
The TOCs are not only committed in principle, they're in the midst of
heavy negotiations about it. Central government is decisively in
favour. The Mayor obviously is, as was the former Mayor, as
(obviously) is TfL.

Where we're at now is the end-game. It's gone on for a whole lot
bloody longer than anyone would have wanted or desired, because what's
at stake is big money. But there's no chance it's simply not going to
happen. No chance at all whatsoever. It's just a question of when. I'd
say "some time next year", nothing more specific than that.

Earlier you spoke about "these groups" - being these newsgroups -
well, if you popped in every now and again, or searched back through
the archives, you'll find much comment - some of it actually informed
- on the whole issue of the long, slow process of bringing Oyster PAYG
to NR.

But if you're not interested in what the situation on the ground is
going to be in the future, or why it's taking so long to get there,
fare enough.

(I'm afraid I feel almost compelled to use that ultra-naff pun over
and over again, sorry!)


As for fraud, I've never seen those fake Savers tickets that
everyone keeps taliing about. And now they've gone, I'll never have
the chance to get someone come up to me in a pub and sell me a
dozen bus tickets for only a quid!

Point proven!

What point? *Being forced to obey the rules is a lot _less_ convenient
than being allowed to break them.

Eh? My point was that Saver tickets allow fraud. Not only that, but it
actually happened - see:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4379620.stm
and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7071356.stm

You think ticketing systems should be designed specifically so as to
make fraud easier then? Interesting.

(And yes I liked Saver tickets - but then I moved over onto Oyster
PAYG. Savers were useful for occasional bus travellers, no doubt, or
for large parties travelling together - indeed they still are, as
existing ones are still valid for use. However it seems that
usefulness came at too great a potential cost. Shame, but if people
are going to scam the system...)


FWIW, I find the whole situation of Oyster PAYG not being accepted on
most NR routes utterly ridiculous - that's no surprise to anyone who's
said me say as much many times before. It's infuriating to be using an
Oyster card that has either reached a daily cap or is approaching a
cap and to then have to avoid using many NR services (and effectively
all of them south of the Thames). It's infuriating to know that I
could walk or run to a nearby station in x minutes, but possibly miss
the train I was heading for whilst waiting to buy a ticket - if only I
could just 'touch-in' and go. It's infuriating to have a Travelcard on
Oyster that doesn't include z1, and not being able to use that Oyster
card to get into zone 1 on NR and have the extension fare
automatically deducted... etc etc etc.

Exactly. *The situation causes at least as many problems as it solves,
and more often than not it's easier just forget about Oyster .

Yeah, thinking about it, I now realise you're absolutely right -
forget about it, it's a white elephant after all, all those millions
of people who happily use Oyster and find it convenient are obviously
total mugs, because whilst it suits them it doesn't suit a certain
"solar penguin".

You were trying to somehow argue that you weren't being a troll
earlier. How's that going?