On 13 July, 12:22, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 13, 11:52*am, John B wrote:





On Jul 13, 11:11*am, "Recliner" wrote:

From my occasional travels on the NLL, I get the impression that most of
the pax are only travelling a few stops, so having to stand may not be
too unacceptable. Although you're right that these are technically
suburban EMUs, in practise they seem to be used more like inner London
Tube services, so having similar seating may be OK. I think it's less
acceptable to have longitudinal seating on longer distance S stock
routes (anywhere beyond Harrow).

When I used to commute peak-hours on the NLL (Highbury to Frognal),
the issue was being able to physically get on the train. Seats were a
very long way from a priority for anyone.

Removing the 3rd seat from the 313s (making them 2+2 with a wide
aisle) has significantly improved the travelling experience, on the
couple of times I've used full NLL trains since they made the change.
I'm sure that longitudinal seating will be similarly helpful.

Agreed. There'll undoubtedly be copious comment on these newsgroups to
the effect that this signals the end of the world - however I doubt
any of those making such comments will ever have travelled on the NLL
in the crush hours (and the same applies to a slightly lesser extend
the WLL). If people are going to be indignant about this, I'd heartily
recommend they actually go and experience it for real.

Additionally, as Recliner has said, the NLL and WLL at least are
heavily used for relatively short hops - few passengers are making
anything like end-to-end journeys, especially during the peaks (that
comment applies only to the NLL - the WLL is so short that whilst many
are making an end-to-end journey, it's still a short hop). The NLL
does indeed have strong similarities to a Tube line, and the WLL
service would if it were more frequent (which it will be).

I admit I'm less familiar with the DC Lines service in particular
during peak times, so perhaps the seating arrangements might cause
some consternation up that way. The ELL meanwhile will perhaps be a
bit of a mix between the NLL and DC Lines - I'd expect it to be very
heavily used towards the centre in particular for short hops ala the
NLL, but it might also have some of the characteristics of the DC
Lines in that it stretches out to a town centre on the edge of London
(i.e. Croydon). We'll see how things work out and how the seating goes
down when extended ELL services start next year.

But I'd strongly urge people to consider the layout in the context of
(a) the route the new trains will be running on and (b) the issues
with crush-loading that it experiences. And go for a ride on the NLL
at busy times... if you dare!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Whatever seating there is, the crucial thing is a properly bounded
standback area around the doors.

The 376s are a disaster because the standback area is full of
obstructions and doesn't allow for people with legs.

The experimental layout on the DLR a few years back was an even worse
disaster, because there was no boundary to the the standback area, and
no one was prepared to lean on seated people's heads.

The SWT 455 refurbishment is a helluva good job given the raw
materials, and should be the basis for everything.