On Dec 26, 11:13*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 14:17:49 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
But there is still the narrow gap and having to wave or bleep
something at the driver, which is surely unnecessary.

The gap is wide enough for people to get through if nobody stands
there. *This can be avoided by going for a bigger bus with more
dedicated standing room downstairs.

Revenue protection is clearly proving to be necessary, given the
reputation of "uncle Ken's free buses". *But then the UK never did,
and probably never will, do penalty fares correctly[1].

I'm not sure this is true, except for highly depressing, party-
political values of "necessary". The actual TfL studies show that
evasion isn't significantly higher on bendies than regular buses -
unfortunately, the urban myth of 'uncle Ken's free buses' has obscured
the reality.

(CUE: pointless anecdotes of "I got on the 29 and only saw 4 people
touching in". Well, yes - the others have Travelcards or bus passes).

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

John B wrote:

(CUE: pointless anecdotes of "I got on the 29 and only saw 4 people
touching in". Well, yes - the others have Travelcards or bus passes).

Talking of people not touching in, TfL are changing the Conditions of
Carriage from 2nd January such that *ALL* Oyster holders *MUST* touch in
(and out where appropriate) or be liable to a Penalty Fare, even if they
have a valid Season Ticket loaded onto their Oyster!

New Conditions of Carriage can be found at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/termsandconditions/899.aspx and the relevant
conditions are 6.6.1 for LU, Overground and National Rail, and 6.6.7 for
Buses.

Cheers,

Barry

On Dec 28, 4:28*pm, Barry Salter wrote:
John B wrote:
(CUE: pointless anecdotes of "I got on the 29 and only saw 4 people
touching in". Well, yes - the others have Travelcards or bus passes).

Talking of people not touching in, TfL are changing the Conditions of
Carriage from 2nd January such that *ALL* Oyster holders *MUST* touch in
(and out where appropriate) or be liable to a Penalty Fare, even if they
have a valid Season Ticket loaded onto their Oyster!

New Conditions of Carriage can be found at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/termsandconditions/899.aspx and the relevant
conditions are 6.6.1 for LU, Overground and National Rail, and 6.6.7 for
Buses.

....although interestingly, that strongly implies (to the extent that
any court would support) that Travelcard holders will only be liable
to a penalty fare if they fail to touch in on buses.

While 6.6.1 says that Travelcard holders are supposed to touch in on
LU/LO/NR, it doesn't specify any sanctions for people who don't -
whereas 6.6.4 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard holders who
don't use OEPs on NR, 6.6.7 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard
holders who don't touch in on buses, and 6.7.3 mentions explicit
sanctions for PAYG users who don't touch in on LU/LO/DLR.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Dec 28, 5:17*pm, John B wrote:
On Dec 28, 4:28*pm, Barry Salter wrote:

John B wrote:
(CUE: pointless anecdotes of "I got on the 29 and only saw 4 people
touching in". Well, yes - the others have Travelcards or bus passes).

Talking of people not touching in, TfL are changing the Conditions of
Carriage from 2nd January such that *ALL* Oyster holders *MUST* touch in
(and out where appropriate) or be liable to a Penalty Fare, even if they
have a valid Season Ticket loaded onto their Oyster!

New Conditions of Carriage can be found at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/termsandconditions/899.aspx and the relevant
conditions are 6.6.1 for LU, Overground and National Rail, and 6.6.7 for
Buses.

...although interestingly, that strongly implies (to the extent that
any court would support) that Travelcard holders will only be liable
to a penalty fare if they fail to touch in on buses.

While 6.6.1 says that Travelcard holders are supposed to touch in on
LU/LO/NR, it doesn't specify any sanctions for people who don't -
whereas 6.6.4 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard holders who
don't use OEPs on NR, 6.6.7 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard
holders who don't touch in on buses, and 6.7.3 mentions explicit
sanctions for PAYG users who don't touch in on LU/LO/DLR.


I notice that the wording is suitably obscure about the use of OEP on
the existing NR routes which accept PAYG. First section 6.6.4 says
that you MUST have an OEP if travelling outside your travelcard
validity on NR, but then says that you SHOULD have an OEP if using one
of the existing PAYG routes (those mentioned in section A1).

I had understood that if, for example, I wished to travel to Watford
Junction on a London Midland service, I wouldn't need an OEP, as the
PAYG rules to Watford Junction would not be changing from the current
situation.

On 28 Dec, 17:17, John B wrote:
On Dec 28, 4:28*pm, Barry Salter wrote:

John B wrote:
(CUE: pointless anecdotes of "I got on the 29 and only saw 4 people
touching in". Well, yes - the others have Travelcards or bus passes).

Talking of people not touching in, TfL are changing the Conditions of
Carriage from 2nd January such that *ALL* Oyster holders *MUST* touch in
(and out where appropriate) or be liable to a Penalty Fare, even if they
have a valid Season Ticket loaded onto their Oyster!

New Conditions of Carriage can be found at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/termsandconditions/899.aspx and the relevant
conditions are 6.6.1 for LU, Overground and National Rail, and 6.6.7 for
Buses.

...although interestingly, that strongly implies (to the extent that
any court would support) that Travelcard holders will only be liable
to a penalty fare if they fail to touch in on buses.

While 6.6.1 says that Travelcard holders are supposed to touch in on
LU/LO/NR, it doesn't specify any sanctions for people who don't -
whereas 6.6.4 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard holders who
don't use OEPs on NR, 6.6.7 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard
holders who don't touch in on buses, and 6.7.3 mentions explicit
sanctions for PAYG users who don't touch in on LU/LO/DLR.

Which is particularly bonkers, since a bus journey can't exactly be
extended beyond zones.

Again, despite my deep suspicion of everything Oyster, I don't believe
this is going to be used for PF purposes. I am sure that it's just an
attempt to get people into the habit of touching all the time, given
all the potential problems (which can't all be solved anyway). It's
one of those "terms and conditions" things that they can fall back on
if someone does try something on but there's no other technical
offence they can get them on.

I don't believe they are going to reprogram all the bus inspector
machines not to give a green light to valid travelcards. What kind of
entry/exit gets registered with a bus touch anyway?

PS Or is this just to prepare for debendification? It's normal to
touch a travelcard in front of a straight bus driver who has the
responsibility of checking that you've got a valid ticket.

On 29 Dec, 08:47, MIG wrote:
On 28 Dec, 17:17, John B wrote:



On Dec 28, 4:28*pm, Barry Salter wrote:

John B wrote:
(CUE: pointless anecdotes of "I got on the 29 and only saw 4 people
touching in". Well, yes - the others have Travelcards or bus passes).

Talking of people not touching in, TfL are changing the Conditions of
Carriage from 2nd January such that *ALL* Oyster holders *MUST* touch in
(and out where appropriate) or be liable to a Penalty Fare, even if they
have a valid Season Ticket loaded onto their Oyster!

New Conditions of Carriage can be found at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/termsandconditions/899.aspx and the relevant
conditions are 6.6.1 for LU, Overground and National Rail, and 6.6.7 for
Buses.

...although interestingly, that strongly implies (to the extent that
any court would support) that Travelcard holders will only be liable
to a penalty fare if they fail to touch in on buses.

While 6.6.1 says that Travelcard holders are supposed to touch in on
LU/LO/NR, it doesn't specify any sanctions for people who don't -
whereas 6.6.4 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard holders who
don't use OEPs on NR, 6.6.7 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard
holders who don't touch in on buses, and 6.7.3 mentions explicit
sanctions for PAYG users who don't touch in on LU/LO/DLR.

Which is particularly bonkers, since a bus journey can't exactly be
extended beyond zones.


It is possible to do so on routes 84 & 614.

On 2009-12-29, Matthew Dickinson wrote:
On 29 Dec, 08:47, MIG wrote:

While 6.6.1 says that Travelcard holders are supposed to touch in on
LU/LO/NR, it doesn't specify any sanctions for people who don't -
whereas 6.6.4 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard holders who
don't use OEPs on NR, 6.6.7 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard
holders who don't touch in on buses, and 6.7.3 mentions explicit
sanctions for PAYG users who don't touch in on LU/LO/DLR.

Which is particularly bonkers, since a bus journey can't exactly be
extended beyond zones.


It is possible to do so on routes 84 & 614.

But they do not accept Oyster for journeys beyond the specified points,
so this is totally irrelevant.

E.

MIG wrote

...although interestingly, that strongly implies (to the extent that
any court would support) that Travelcard holders will only be liable
to a penalty fare if they fail to touch in on buses.

While 6.6.1 says that Travelcard holders are supposed to touch in on
LU/LO/NR, it doesn't specify any sanctions for people who don't -
whereas 6.6.4 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard holders who
don't use OEPs on NR, 6.6.7 mentions explicit sanctions for
Travelcard
holders who don't touch in on buses, and 6.7.3 mentions explicit
sanctions for PAYG users who don't touch in on LU/LO/DLR.

.. Which is particularly bonkers, since a bus journey can't exactly be
.. extended beyond zones.

.. Again, despite my deep suspicion of everything Oyster, I don't
believe
this is going to be used for PF purposes. I am sure that it's just an
attempt to get people into the habit of touching all the time, given
all the potential problems (which can't all be solved anyway). It's
one of those "terms and conditions" things that they can fall back on
if someone does try something on but there's no other technical
offence they can get them on.

.. I don't believe they are going to reprogram all the bus inspector
machines not to give a green light to valid travelcards. What kind of
entry/exit gets registered with a bus touch anyway?

Wearing my "think of a reason" hat, requiring touch-in on buses will
ensure the /forgetful/ won't travel free with an expired season ticket.

Other parts of the conditions of carriage remind me of Sir Alan Herbert
(who, in _Uncommon Law_ invented the negotiable cow).

12.1.3. You must not bring with you anything that:
• is more than 2 metres long

14.1. You can bring an assistance dog with you without charge. You can
also take with you without charge any other dog or inoffensive animal,
unless there is a good reason [...]

So parrots and other birds are OK if not too large.

--
Mike D

In article 01ca88cb$cc175420$LocalHost@default, (Michael
R N Dolbear) wrote:

Other parts of the conditions of carriage remind me of Sir Alan Herbert
(who, in _Uncommon Law_ invented the negotiable cow).

12.1.3. You must not bring with you anything that:
• is more than 2 metres long

14.1. You can bring an assistance dog with you without charge. You can
also take with you without charge any other dog or inoffensive animal,
unless there is a good reason [...]

So parrots and other birds are OK if not too large.

Is a giraffe more than 2 metres _long?_

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote:
In article 01ca88cb$cc175420$LocalHost@default,
(Michael
R N Dolbear) wrote:

Other parts of the conditions of carriage remind me of Sir Alan
Herbert
(who, in _Uncommon Law_ invented the negotiable cow).

12.1.3. You must not bring with you anything that:
• is more than 2 metres long

14.1. You can bring an assistance dog with you without charge. You
can
also take with you without charge any other dog or inoffensive
animal,
unless there is a good reason [...]

So parrots and other birds are OK if not too large.

Is a giraffe more than 2 metres _long?_

Dunno. But if you do take one you shouldn't leave it on the train.