Blind Lamps
 

I Wonder how many buses are running around at night (or in the dark) with
non working blind lamps?

I can't think of the last time I saw a fully working lamp set. Most I've
seen/used have only the number illuminated which is fine if you know what
number bus you want rather then where it's going, or even a old school 'via'
point.

Don't garages VDI there buses before they go out on a turn or diagram
whichever its called in bus world ?

Which comes back to the point people have made before - nice yellow/orange
LED destination displays would solve that problem (and the 'via' problem)

Blind Lamps
 

On Feb 11, 11:14*pm, "Q" ..@.. wrote:

Which comes back to the point people have made before - nice yellow/orange
LED destination displays would solve that problem (and the 'via' problem)

These can fail as well, of course.

But I agree. I don't see why London insists on being so backward.
Flipdot displays were crap, so I don't blame them for missing those
out, but it seems LED is a technology with few disadvantages.

Neil

Blind Lamps
 

On Feb 12, 8:15*am, Neil Williams wrote:

On Feb 11, 11:14*pm, "Q" ..@.. wrote:

Which comes back to the point people have made before - nice yellow/orange
LED destination displays would solve that problem (and the 'via' problem)

These can fail as well, of course.

But I agree. *I don't see why London insists on being so backward.
Flipdot displays were crap, so I don't blame them for missing those
out, but it seems LED is a technology with few disadvantages.

I disagree - I think blinds offer superior visibility over LED
displays, *if* they're backlit properly. From a distance I find LED
displays on buses hard to read, and also find the light they emit is
rather harsh.

Blind Lamps
 

On 12/02/2010 08:15, Neil Williams wrote:
But I agree. I don't see why London insists on being so backward.
Flipdot displays were crap, so I don't blame them for missing those
out, but it seems LED is a technology with few disadvantages.

The problem with many bus LED destination signs is that the LED is
matrix scanned rather slowly, so has a strobing problem when it goes
over bumpy roads.

Replace the driver with one that scans at a higher frequency and that
problem goes away.

That said, there's some TfL bus routes (the 84, for instance) that are
allowed LED destination signs; presumably because the route is largely
outside's TfL's area, so I think that much of the funding for that route
actually comes from Hertfordshire. It's also a strange route in the way
that oyster card validity is done. Supposedly, a passenger boarding
within Greater London can just swipe an oyster card, but is supposed to
pay extra for the leg outside of London. Quite a few passengers get
caught out by that on the return journey when oyster cards are not valid.

--
Simon Hewison

Blind Lamps
 

Neil Williams wrote on 12 February 2010 08:15:27 ...
On Feb 11, 11:14 pm, "Q" ..@.. wrote:

Which comes back to the point people have made before - nice yellow/orange
LED destination displays would solve that problem (and the 'via' problem)

These can fail as well, of course.

But I agree. I don't see why London insists on being so backward.
Flipdot displays were crap, so I don't blame them for missing those
out, but it seems LED is a technology with few disadvantages.

The technology might be OK if the resolution is high enough, but in
practice you get crude letter shapes with the letters g,j,p,q,y not
descending properly. If "backward" means retaining the elegant and
highly legible Johnston typeface, I'm all for it.

--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Blind Lamps
 

"Richard J." wrote in message
om...

The technology might be OK if the resolution is high enough, but in
practice you get crude letter shapes with the letters g,j,p,q,y not
descending properly. If "backward" means retaining the elegant and highly
legible Johnston typeface, I'm all for it.

True - I have no problems with the blinds in Edinburgh for example, the
London yellow on black always tended to fade and look washed out quite quick
after sitting in the sun.

Ours though normally have the backlight off or broken which is fun on Tot Ct
Rd after a night out.

Leeds have LED and I've never had a problem with them either.

The Big Tour company (or someone like that in London) have LED's but they
have a mix of blue & orange/yellow. The blue is awful to read.

Blind Lamps
 

In uk.transport.london message
dia.com, Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:30:59, Richard J.
posted:

The technology might be OK if the resolution is high enough, but in
practice you get crude letter shapes with the letters g,j,p,q,y not
descending properly. If "backward" means retaining the elegant and
highly legible Johnston typeface, I'm all for it.

I have had 7-pin printers which used the middle 5 pins for "e", the
upper 6 for "E", the lower 6 for "g", and all bar the second for "j".
Characters were 7 dots wide, with the restriction that no pin could fire
in adjacent columns. The result was surprisingly legible, given those
limitations. Descenders should descend "below the line", but do not
need to descend far if, for "gpqy" the bode of the character does not
use the sixth row. Someone tell TfL.

--
(c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
Grandson-Of-RFC1036 is released. RFC 5536 Netnews Article Format is a
subset of Internet Message Format which is described in RFC 5532. The
RFCs are read together to determine standard Netnews article format.

Blind Lamps
 

Dr J R Stockton wrote on 13 February 2010
21:23:23 ...
In uk.transport.london message
dia.com, Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:30:59, Richard J.
posted:

The technology might be OK if the resolution is high enough, but in
practice you get crude letter shapes with the letters g,j,p,q,y not
descending properly. If "backward" means retaining the elegant and
highly legible Johnston typeface, I'm all for it.

I have had 7-pin printers which used the middle 5 pins for "e", the
upper 6 for "E", the lower 6 for "g", and all bar the second for "j".
Characters were 7 dots wide, with the restriction that no pin could fire
in adjacent columns. The result was surprisingly legible, given those
limitations. Descenders should descend "below the line", but do not
need to descend far if, for "gpqy" the bode of the character does not
use the sixth row. Someone tell TfL.

Designing a typeface that is legible on a moving vehicle at a distance
is rather more demanding than cobbling together a few dots on a piece of
paper. TfL are more careful about legibility than most other transport
operators, and I applaud their approach. The one area where they have
fallen down is destination displays on new tube trains, which are not
nearly as clear as the old blinds. I wouldn't want them to go down the
same path with buses until higher-resolution displays are available.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Blind Lamps
 

On Feb 14, 2:12*am, "Richard J." wrote:
Dr J R Stockton wrote on 13 February 2010
21:23:23 ...

*TfL are more careful about legibility than most other transport
operators, and I applaud their approach. *
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I entirely agree, but I do think the current policy of only showing
the final destination is a retrograde step. Clarity and the avoidance
of clutter is important, but there are many routes where important
stops are missed off. Near me, the 466 shows the destination as
Addington Village and anyone who isn't local will not be aware that
the route serves Croydon, which is hugely more important.

Peter

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Peter Heather wrote:

I do think the current policy of only showing
the final destination is a retrograde step. Clarity and the avoidance
of clutter is important, but there are many routes where important
stops are missed off. Near me, the 466 shows the destination as
Addington Village and anyone who isn't local will not be aware that
the route serves Croydon, which is hugely more important.

But anyone reading a via point can't know if the bus is going there or
coming from it.

--
We are the Strasbourg. Referendum is futile.

Blind Lamps
 

On Feb 14, 2:34*pm, "Basil Jet"
wrote:

Peter Heather wrote:

I do think the current policy of only showing
the final destination is a retrograde step. Clarity and the avoidance
of clutter is important, but there are many routes where important
stops are missed off. Near me, the 466 shows the destination as
Addington Village and anyone who isn't local will not be aware that
the route serves Croydon, which is hugely more important.

But anyone reading a via point can't know if the bus is going there or
coming from it.

I have certainly come across people on-board buses who were going the
wrong way several times. No idea if 'via' points listed on the blinds
were the cause of any of these, nor indeed if there were actually any
'via' points on the blinds of the buses in question.

I can see arguments both ways. One factor to bear in mind is that the
information presented at bus stops in London is far better these days
than it ever was, so that could be seen to lessen the need for 'via'
points to be listed on the blinds.

The pro-LED argument is that 'via' points can be updated as the bus
progresses along the route, of course. Not a winner in my eyes though.

Blind Lamps
 

Mizter T wrote:

The pro-LED argument is that 'via' points can be updated as the bus
progresses along the route, of course. Not a winner in my eyes though.

Electronic ink is the answer.

--
We are the Strasbourg. Referendum is futile.

Blind Lamps
 

On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 15:54:18 -0000, "Basil Jet"
wrote:

Electronic ink is the answer.

Not backlit by default. One of the reasons for the excellent
visibility of LED is that it's an active lit technology. Having a
separate backlight is just another point of failure.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Blind Lamps
 

On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 07:30:12 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

I can see arguments both ways. One factor to bear in mind is that the
information presented at bus stops in London is far better these days
than it ever was, so that could be seen to lessen the need for 'via'
points to be listed on the blinds.

True. But it's nice to be able to see a bus waiting there and know
it's the right one without having to read the posters.

To the thread in general - I don't go for the argument of blinds being
easier to read. I genuinely find LED clearer, especially from a
distance. And it doesn't take much maintenance to keep it going - the
number of stuck, folded or otherwise damaged blinds is far greater
than the number (elsewhere) of broken LEDs.

And LED will generally "fail safe" without getting stuck displaying
incorrect information.

As for high-resolution displays - they exist but are a bit more
expensive, hence why you don't see a lot of them. Lothian (since they
were mentioned upthread) have a bus with a white high-res LED display
on trial - saw it last time I was in Edinburgh. I don't know what
they think of it yet, though.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Blind Lamps
 

On 14 Feb, 17:40, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 07:30:12 -0800 (PST), Mizter T

wrote:
I can see arguments both ways. One factor to bear in mind is that the
information presented at bus stops in London is far better these days
than it ever was, so that could be seen to lessen the need for 'via'
points to be listed on the blinds.

True. *But it's nice to be able to see a bus waiting there and know
it's the right one without having to read the posters.


Trouble is that there are worrying precedents.

The punter should not be having to squint at a tiny, scrolling
display, in the time it takes to decide whether to get on, in order to
find out where the buses go in general.

They should already have had access to information about where the
buses go. The main purpose of the blind should be to identify the
right bus in a hurry at a crowded bus stop.

This can be done as long as the posters, timetables and buses all
prominently feature the route number.

The addition of calling points etc on trains led to the idiocy of
route numbers being dispensed with on the Southern Region of the
railways. I wouldn't want to see buses going the same way.


To the thread in general - I don't go for the argument of blinds being
easier to read. *I genuinely find LED clearer, especially from a
distance. *And it doesn't take much maintenance to keep it going - the
number of stuck, folded or otherwise damaged blinds is far greater
than the number (elsewhere) of broken LEDs.

And LED will generally "fail safe" without getting stuck displaying
incorrect information.

As for high-resolution displays - they exist but are a bit more
expensive, hence why you don't see a lot of them. *Lothian (since they
were mentioned upthread) have a bus with a white high-res LED display
on trial - saw it last time I was in Edinburgh. *I don't know what
they think of it yet, though.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Blind Lamps
 

In message
,
Mizter T writes

I can see arguments both ways. One factor to bear in mind is that the
information presented at bus stops in London is far better these days
than it ever was, so that could be seen to lessen the need for 'via'
points to be listed on the blinds.

The pro-LED argument is that 'via' points can be updated as the bus
progresses along the route, of course. Not a winner in my eyes though.

The main advantage of an iBus-linked system could be to ensure that the
destination is changed automatically at terminii - too often I've seen
buses where the driver has forgotten to change the destination before
setting off, causing great confusion to strangers.

Even worse are the drivers who forget to change the blinds when taking
out a bus that was previously diagrammed on a totally different route.
Only last Monday I got on a 337 that claimed it was a Railway
Replacement Service (which it probably was on the previous day).
--
Paul Terry

Blind Lamps
 

On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 10:13:09 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

The punter should not be having to squint at a tiny, scrolling
display, in the time it takes to decide whether to get on, in order to
find out where the buses go in general.

They should already have had access to information about where the
buses go. The main purpose of the blind should be to identify the
right bus in a hurry at a crowded bus stop.

Which is pretty handy if you're, say, running out of Euston looking
for a bus ASAP, and aren't familiar with the not exactly logically
arranged bus station. Why *not* provide the information? A scrolling
LED blind does so clearly and legibly.

The addition of calling points etc on trains led to the idiocy of
route numbers being dispensed with on the Southern Region of the
railways. I wouldn't want to see buses going the same way.

LED blinds are in use all over the country, and there is no sign of
numbers being dispensed with.

OeBB/Postbus/Bundesbus in Austria did dispense with them for a while,
though, which was rather stupid. They used, umm, roller blinds.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Blind Lamps
 

On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:31:31 +0000, Paul Terry
wrote:

The main advantage of an iBus-linked system could be to ensure that the
destination is changed automatically at terminii - too often I've seen
buses where the driver has forgotten to change the destination before
setting off, causing great confusion to strangers.

An iBus-linked system might also update iBus with the changed
destination. I have no idea why this isn't done now - all you get is
a "please listen for announcements" thingy.

While I'm on such points, the "The next bus stop is closed"
announcement is bloody pointless if used, as it usually is, after
departure from the previous one or at it but not with enough time to
get up and leave the bus there. It should really say, a couple of
stops beforehand, "The bus stop at Euston Bus Station is closed.
Passengers are advised to use the stop before at Euston Road, or the
stop after at British Library", or something[1]. And if there is a
long-term closure, it needs downloading into the system so the driver
doesn't have to remember to do it!

[1] I know the example isn't quite correct.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Blind Lamps
 

On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 19:55:52 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

I understand I-Bus can only be updated every 2 weeks.

Strange.

--
jhk

Blind Lamps
 

MIG wrote

They should already have had access to information about where the
buses go. The main purpose of the blind should be to identify the
right bus in a hurry at a crowded bus stop.

This can be done as long as the posters, timetables and buses all
prominently feature the route number.

Not in fact sufficient, the direction can also be needed.

Since there are bus stops on tea cup sections where the same route
calls going in both directions.

216 at Tesco, Sunbury. K3 in Claygate.

--
Mike D

Blind Lamps
 

Paul Corfield wrote
On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 19:06:31 GMT,
(Neil
Williams) wrote:

While I'm on such points, the "The next bus stop is closed"
announcement is bloody pointless if used, as it usually is, after
departure from the previous one or at it but not with enough time to
get up and leave the bus there.

Some drivers get this right and others get it wrong. Some drivers
stop
at closed stops anyway. Half the closures on my regular route are
not
necessary anyway - TfL could provide a dolly stop if only they could
be

It should really say, a couple of
stops beforehand, "The bus stop at Euston Bus Station is closed.
Passengers are advised to use the stop before at Euston Road, or the
stop after at British Library", or something[1]. And if there is a
long-term closure, it needs downloading into the system so the
driver
doesn't have to remember to do it!

I understand I-Bus can only be updated every 2 weeks. Therefore
short
term closures will never be reflected. Buses have a PA system for a

But is there any chance of moving the "The next bus stop is closed"
announcement earlier or forcing a stop and announcement at the
immediately previous open stop ?

--
Mike D

Blind Lamps
 

On 14 Feb, 23:31, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:
MIG wrote

They should already have had access to information about where the

buses go. *The main purpose of the blind should be to identify the
right bus in a hurry at a crowded bus stop.

This can be done as long as the posters, timetables and buses all

prominently feature the route number.

Not in fact sufficient, the direction can also be needed.

The number is not necessarily sufficient, but it's sufficiently
necessary that it should be the most prominent detail on the bus and
all information relating to the bus.

I didn't mean it should be the only detail, but there's a worrying
trend towards getting rid of clear, simple codes (like route numbers)
and replacing or burying them with complicated, tiny, scrolling
information which doesn't work half the time.

A large enough white number on black background should be visible even
without a backlight. A non-functioning LED will simply be blank. A
blind is only wrong if the driver makes a mistake. An LED is wrong if
the driver makes a mistake or if the LED isn't working.

Blind Lamps
 

On Feb 14, 8:55*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

I understand I-Bus can only be updated every 2 weeks. *

That seems a design flaw. I would have assumed such a system could
update automatically each time the bus returned to the depot, either
by way of wi-fi or the ticket machine module (if those are still
used), and that the data in it would be updated on a continuous,
dynamic basis.

Do you know why this is not the case?

Neil

Blind Lamps
 

On Feb 14, 8:55*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

I had the opposite today - the I-Bus destination changed but there was
no announcement or the "the destination of this bus has changed"
display.

That's odd as well. You'd think the two would be linked to give an
announcement along the lines of "The destination of this bus has
changed. This is now route N to X. Passengers requiring transfer
tickets to travel the full length of the route should request these
from the driver before they leave the bus to avoid paying an extra
fare." (assuming the latter is still done).

Neil

Blind Lamps
 

On Feb 15, 12:31*am, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

But is there any chance of moving the "The next bus stop is closed"
announcement earlier or forcing a stop and announcement at the
immediately previous open stop ?

It's manual, which relies on the driver remembering. That's the
problem.

Neil

Blind Lamps
 

On Feb 15, 11:42*am, MIG wrote:

A large enough white number on black background should be visible even
without a backlight. *A non-functioning LED will simply be blank. *A
blind is only wrong if the driver makes a mistake.

Or it's stuck. Or in the case of those automatic blinds on the
bendies (worst of both worlds?) when the mechanism is broken, which
seems to be a lot of the time.

*An LED is wrong if
the driver makes a mistake or if the LED isn't working.

Though in the latter case it at least will show nothing, not a wrong
destination. No information is better than wrong information.

Neil

Blind Lamps
 

On 15 Feb, 11:37, Neil Williams wrote:
On Feb 15, 12:31*am, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

But is there any chance of moving the "The next bus stop is closed"
announcement earlier or forcing a stop and announcement at the
immediately previous open stop ?

It's manual, which relies on the driver remembering. *That's the
problem.

Neil

Funnily enough, this happened tonight in Shooters Hill Road. While at
the previous stop, there was an announcement that the next stop was
closed.

If it wasn't automatic, I guess that particular driver did remember.