On Feb 22, 1:23*am, Mizter T wrote:

On Feb 21, 7:51*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 04:53:11 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:
TfL seem to regard LO as a kind of metro network - as the LO name
suggests, sort of an overground equivalent to the Underground. And
ultimately TfL are free to show interchanges on in-carriage Tube
diagrams however they please.

I think, ELL excepted, that its closest analogy is Merseyrail - or a
German S-Bahn, which is part of the main national network but
usually[1] not treated as such because of its standalone nature.

An S-Bahn of which a portion is also a crucial rail freight route in
the context of the national railway (NLL and WLL). Genuinely curious
as to how many S-Bahns in Germany find themselves in similar positions?

^^^
S-Bahnen is what I should have written, of course!

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:42:14 +0100, "Willms"
wrote:

No, they have made an operating contract with LOROL, while the way
of usage of the concession ceded by DfT to TfL is specified by the
concessionaire, namely TfL. LOROL does not have the entrepreneurial
freedom to use the resource ceded by DfT to TfL according to their own
plans. The plans are made by the concessionaire TfL and are quite
rigid in regard to the limits in which LOROL has to operate in.

You think that then. Several people, including me, disagree.

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 20:24:27 +0100, "Willms"
wrote:

Am Sat, 20 Feb 2010 12:41:01 UTC, schrieb Paul Corfield
auf uk.railway :

It is part of National Rail, but TfL has the franchise for whatever
number of years.

Not quite correct. TfL have been given the powers to let and manage the
concession for the Overground network. LOROL are the concessionaire who
operate the service for TfL and have to meet the requirements and
standards set by TfL.

which is a wrong use of the English language...

[snip load of old ******** delivered from Germany]

Whatever Mr Pedant. Remind what country you were born in and what your
native language is? How many errors have you made on this group in
dealing with what the rest of us (born and raised in the UK

..... and other English-speaking countries, too Ahem ) understand
as the English language?
--
Paul C

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:02:05 +0100, "Willms"
wrote:

... and that LOROL can set the fares for the lines it operates?

Not relevant.

In what respect can LOROL freely decide how the service is run and
presented and what control do they have about their ticket revenue?

According to the original press release:
Services will be run by London Overground Rail Operations Ltd (LOROL),
a joint venture of MTR and LaingRail, who will operate trains and
stations under the new London Overground concession. Responsibility
for track and signals will remain with Network Rail.

Under the terms of the contract with LOROL TfL will take 90% of the
revenue from the concession for reinvestment in the capitals transport
network, leaving 10% for LOROL as part of an incentive to run the
railway to the highest standards.

http://www.mayorwatch.co.uk/london-o...unches/2007858

They think it's a concession, to operate trains and stations in return
for 10% of revenue. The ability to set fares is not relevant - the
incentive is to run services efficiently; the better they achieve
this, the more revenue it generates.

It's described elsewhere as "a unique, tightly managed contract".

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010, Ivor The Engine wrote:

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:35:46 +0100, "Willms"
wrote:

No, there is no consession. DfT have ceded the their role to TfL.

Which is the concession. You use yourself the word "cede".

You are wrong in assigning the same meanings to the words. They come
from different Latin roots: concedere, 'to concede' and cedere, 'to
yield'.

The Oxford English Dictionary has four meanings of concession:
n., 1 a thing conceded. 2 a reduction in price for a certain category
of person. 3 the right to use land or other property for a specified
purpose, granted by a government or other controlling body. 4 a
commercial operation set up within the premises of a larger concern.

to cede means to 'give up (power or territory)'. [OED again]

In the context of this discussion, the above statement is correct
(despite the dodgy spelling). DfT have ceded their powers to TfL.
TfL have then granted rights [as concession: meaning 3] under that
power.

I think you should concede[1] now that the native English speakers in
this group do know what they are talking about (some of the time).

I certainly look forward to the cession of this session.

tom

--
this place would be a paradise tomorrow if every department had a
supervisor with a sub-machine gun

New banner up at Canada Water station this morning, proudly carrying
the LU roundel and the NR double arrow, but no sign of the L.
Overground roundel. Crazy stuff, not least because, as has been
pointed out earlier in this thread, Rotherhithe and Surrey Quays carry
just the overground roundel and no NR arrows.

Incidentally, I managed to grab a peek into Surrey Quays overground
station at the weekend, and grabbed this footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlUFCcXZy-8

On 23 Feb, 10:20, Pale Fox wrote:
New banner up at Canada Water station this morning, proudly carrying
the LU roundel and the NR double arrow, but no sign of the L.
Overground roundel. Crazy stuff, not least because, as has been
pointed out earlier in this thread, Rotherhithe and Surrey Quays carry
just the overground roundel and no NR arrows.


Isn't that because Canada Water is a London Underground station. There
is a similar lack of London Overground roundels at the stations
between Queens Park and Harrow & Wealdstone run by the Bakerloo.

"Andy" wrote in message
...
On 23 Feb, 10:20, Pale Fox wrote:
New banner up at Canada Water station this morning, proudly carrying
the LU roundel and the NR double arrow, but no sign of the L.
Overground roundel. Crazy stuff, not least because, as has been
pointed out earlier in this thread, Rotherhithe and Surrey Quays carry
just the overground roundel and no NR arrows.


Isn't that because Canada Water is a London Underground station. There
is a similar lack of London Overground roundels at the stations
between Queens Park and Harrow & Wealdstone run by the Bakerloo.

According to their own publications, Canada Water should have LO (orange)
roundels on the ELL platforms, as they are only used by LO trains. The LU
managed stations on the DC should only have LU (red) roundels as both LU &
LO trains run through the same platforms.

Somewhere outside Canada Water station there should be some sort of
interchange signage that includes the LO roundel, but AIUI this doesn't
necessarily have to appear alongside the main station sign if it doesn't
work architecturally...

Paul S

On Feb 23, 10:20*am, Pale Fox
wrote:
New banner up at Canada Water station this morning, proudly carrying
the LU roundel and the NR double arrow, but no sign of the L.
Overground roundel. Crazy stuff, not least because, as has been
pointed out earlier in this thread, Rotherhithe and Surrey Quays carry
just the overground roundel and no NR arrows.

I went past Canada Water a few days ago - the 'banner' in question was
a temporary canvas cover for the totem/ flag sign, I assume it's there
to cover up the new and permanent totem signage which shows the orange
LO roundel - and whoever designed the temporary arrangement didn't
really think about it before they erroneously added the NR symbol.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:12:17 +0100, "Willms"
wrote:

I still hold that this usage contradicts the worldwide understanding of what a
concession is

Fine. Except we are talking about English usage, in England. Still.