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1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
Murad Qureshi calls for new signal box - 1928 equipment causing
commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube Published: 4 June 2010 by JAMIE WELHAM IT has been described as the “arm-pit” of the underground and is a perennial source of rage for browbeaten Circle line commuters. http://www.westendextra.com/news/201...y-edgware-road |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On Sat, 5 Jun 2010 10:19:53 -0700 (PDT), CJB wrote: Murad Qureshi calls for new signal box - 1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube Published: 4 June 2010 by JAMIE WELHAM IT has been described as the "arm-pit" of the underground and is a perennial source of rage for browbeaten Circle line commuters. http://www.westendextra.com/news/201...y-edgware-road So what? Mr Qureshi was told all about this prior to his visit because Mike Brown (LUL MD) explained what happens at Edgware Road when he sat in front of the GLA Transport Committee recently. The more important issue here is not that Mr Qureshi does a "headline grab" but that the sub surface resignalling proceeds to programme. It is that which will deliver improvement but it will still take a number of years to achieve. The 1928 signal box is not going to disappear for a number of years. Its continuing existence is a classic example of "make do and mend" investment decisions (and lack of sustained capital monies) that have prevented large scale signalling works on the sub surface network for decades. This is what you get when people decide that it is OK to slash expenditure on public transport. -- Paul C 1928 it's hardly old for the railway is it? |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On 5 June, 19:24, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 5 Jun 2010 10:19:53 -0700 (PDT), CJB wrote: Murad Qureshi calls for new signal box - 1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube Published: *4 June 2010 by JAMIE WELHAM IT has been described as the arm-pit of the underground and is a perennial source of rage for browbeaten Circle line commuters. http://www.westendextra.com/news/201...-calls-new-sig... So what? * Mr Qureshi was told all about this prior to his visit because Mike Brown (LUL MD) *explained what happens at Edgware Road when he sat in front of the GLA Transport Committee recently. The more important issue here is not that Mr Qureshi does a "headline grab" but that the sub surface resignalling proceeds to programme. It is that which will deliver improvement but it will still take a number of years to achieve. The 1928 signal box is not going to disappear for a number of years. Its continuing existence is a classic example of "make do and mend" investment decisions (and lack of sustained capital monies) that have prevented large scale signalling works on the sub surface network for decades. *This is what you get when people decide that it is OK to slash expenditure on public transport. -- Paul C Or, to be more exact, cut capital expenditure in the downside of an economic cyle to reduce costs. In fact the crux of the argument in the recent general election, with Labour and LDs [the majority] arguing against and Tories [the minority] arguing for. And that which the coalition is now putting through with LD support [Apologies to the non-English contributors for the UK-centric interpretation] Patrick |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On Jun 5, 6:19*pm, CJB wrote:
Murad Qureshi calls for new signal box - 1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube Published: *4 June 2010 by JAMIE WELHAM IT has been described as the “arm-pit” of the underground and is a perennial source of rage for browbeaten Circle line commuters. http://www.westendextra.com/news/201...-calls-new-sig... The older equipment often works better than the newer kit though! The east end of the Piccadilly is a prime example! (as for the new signalling on the Jubilee) |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
On Sat, 5 Jun 2010 10:19:53 -0700 (PDT), CJB wrote: Murad Qureshi calls for new signal box - 1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube Published: 4 June 2010 by JAMIE WELHAM IT has been described as the "arm-pit" of the underground and is a perennial source of rage for browbeaten Circle line commuters. http://www.westendextra.com/news/201...y-edgware-road So what? Mr Qureshi was told all about this prior to his visit because Mike Brown (LUL MD) explained what happens at Edgware Road when he sat in front of the GLA Transport Committee recently. The more important issue here is not that Mr Qureshi does a "headline grab" but that the sub surface resignalling proceeds to programme. It is that which will deliver improvement but it will still take a number of years to achieve. The 1928 signal box is not going to disappear for a number of years. Its continuing existence is a classic example of "make do and mend" investment decisions (and lack of sustained capital monies) that have prevented large scale signalling works on the sub surface network for decades. This is what you get when people decide that it is OK to slash expenditure on public transport. Had Metronet not imploded, when was the SSL resignalling supposed to be installed? I had thought it wasn't all that far in the future. |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On 05/06/2010 18:19, CJB wrote:
Murad Qureshi calls for new signal box - 1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube Published: 4 June 2010 by JAMIE WELHAM IT has been described as the “arm-pit” of the underground and is a perennial source of rage for browbeaten Circle line commuters. http://www.westendextra.com/news/201...y-edgware-road "When there was only one line for the whole of London" What can that refer to? Neither telephones nor rail lines makes much sense in this context. -- John Wright Use your imagination Marvin! Life's bad enough as it is - why invent any more of it. |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 15:58:44 +0100 someone who may be john wright
wrote this:- "When there was only one line for the whole of London" What can that refer to? Neither telephones nor rail lines makes much sense in this context. Indeed. The whole sentence is "At its nerve centre is a signal box first fitted in 1928 – a relic from the first days of the network when there was only one line for the whole of London." I suspect that it is just bad journalism, mixing up things the journalist was told. As background the journalist may have been told that at one time Edgware Road was on the only underground railway line [1] not just in London but in the world. However, that was a long time before 1928. The photograph shows a miniature lever frame box typical of the era, particularly in London and SE England. If it has been well maintained the lever frame should work well, though if the components on the track are of the same era some may be giving rather more trouble, though fish tank relays tend to be pretty indestructible. [1] in the sense of a railway running under city streets for an extended distance with intermediate stations. There were earlier underground railways, including the Liverpool and Manchester Railway tunnels in Liverpool http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites/l/liverpool_edge_hill_cutting/index.shtml -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54 |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On Jun 6, 7:11*pm, David Hansen
wrote: The whole sentence is "At its nerve centre is a signal box first fitted in 1928 The photograph shows a miniature lever frame box typical of the era, Here it is : http://www.wbsframe.mste.co.uk/publi...ware_Road.html -- Nick |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On Sun, 6 Jun 2010, David Hansen wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 15:58:44 +0100 someone who may be john wright wrote this:- "When there was only one line for the whole of London" What can that refer to? Neither telephones nor rail lines makes much sense in this context. Indeed. The whole sentence is "At its nerve centre is a signal box first fitted in 1928 ? a relic from the first days of the network when there was only one line for the whole of London." I suspect that it is just bad journalism, mixing up things the journalist was told. As background the journalist may have been told that at one time Edgware Road was on the only underground railway line [1] not just in London but in the world. However, that was a long time before 1928. The photograph shows a miniature lever frame box typical of the era, particularly in London and SE England. Hang on, so that levery pipe-organ thing the guy in the photo is playing is from 1928? I assumed the story meant the signal box was built in 1928, not necessarily that all the equipment in it was still original. But i know nothing of these things. Hold on, i've just looked at the link Nick posted. It's not from 1928 - it's from 1926! Yikes! tom -- I see large and small words on this page, arranged in long rows separated by little dotty characters. Suspect written by little dotty characters, too. -- RonJeffries |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On Jun 6, 10:45*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
is from 1928? I assumed the story meant the signal box was built in 1928, not necessarily that all the equipment in it was still original. But i know nothing of these things. Hold on, i've just looked at the link Nick posted. It's not from 1928 - it's from 1926! Yikes! Ther are others the saem Hammersmith 1931 http://www.wbsframe.mste.co.uk/public/Hammersmith.html and other cabins like Rayners Lane, Harrow on Hill still manned power frames. *Almost* the entire underground except Central line and east end of Jubilee (JLE) is on V-style remote control frames. -- Nick |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On Jun 6, 11:40*pm, D7666 wrote:
On Jun 6, 10:45*pm, Tom Anderson wrote: is from 1928? I assumed the story meant the signal box was built in 1928, not necessarily that all the equipment in it was still original. But i know nothing of these things. Hold on, i've just looked at the link Nick posted. It's not from 1928 - it's from 1926! Yikes! Ther are others the saem Hammersmith 1931 http://www.wbsframe.mste.co.uk/public/Hammersmith.html and other cabins like Rayners Lane, Harrow on Hill still manned power frames. *Almost* the entire underground except Central line and east end of Jubilee (JLE) is on V-style remote control frames. -- Nick Hammersmith, Whitechapel, the Rickmansworth area or Rickmansworth still have lever frames. Harrow has a push pull frame, with remote IMRs. Rayners, the rest of Rickmansworth, Upminster, Barking, Amersham are buttons that operate IMRs Then of course most of the network still uses IMRs (Interlocking Machine Rooms), remotely operated lever frames, except the Central, new bits of the Jubilee and Terminal Five! Some of the frames are ancient and have just been converted to IMR, even if it's operated from a control room, by button or computer. Then of course, there can't be train numbers with 8 or 9 on many lines! |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 22:45:02 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote: On Sun, 6 Jun 2010, David Hansen wrote: On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 15:58:44 +0100 someone who may be john wright wrote this:- "When there was only one line for the whole of London" What can that refer to? Neither telephones nor rail lines makes much sense in this context. Indeed. The whole sentence is "At its nerve centre is a signal box first fitted in 1928 ? a relic from the first days of the network when there was only one line for the whole of London." I suspect that it is just bad journalism, mixing up things the journalist was told. As background the journalist may have been told that at one time Edgware Road was on the only underground railway line [1] not just in London but in the world. However, that was a long time before 1928. The photograph shows a miniature lever frame box typical of the era, particularly in London and SE England. Hang on, so that levery pipe-organ thing the guy in the photo is playing is from 1928? I assumed the story meant the signal box was built in 1928, not necessarily that all the equipment in it was still original. But i know nothing of these things. Hold on, i've just looked at the link Nick posted. It's not from 1928 - it's from 1926! Yikes! The lever frame might be from the 1920s but there has been no confirmation yet whether the faults lie in there or in the electrical gubbins elsewhere into which it is plumbed and which could be of rather more recent origin. |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On Jun 7, 6:22*am, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 22:45:02 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote: On Sun, 6 Jun 2010, David Hansen wrote: On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 15:58:44 +0100 someone who may be john wright wrote this:- "When there was only one line for the whole of London" What can that refer to? Neither telephones nor rail lines makes much sense in this context. Indeed. The whole sentence is "At its nerve centre is a signal box first fitted in 1928 ? a relic from the first days of the network when there was only one line for the whole of London." I suspect that it is just bad journalism, mixing up things the journalist was told. As background the journalist may have been told that at one time Edgware Road was on the only underground railway line [1] not just in London but in the world. However, that was a long time before 1928. The photograph shows a miniature lever frame box typical of the era, particularly in London and SE England. Hang on, so that levery pipe-organ thing the guy in the photo is playing is from 1928? I assumed the story meant the signal box was built in 1928, not necessarily that all the equipment in it was still original. But i know nothing of these things. Hold on, i've just looked at the link Nick posted. It's not from 1928 - it's from 1926! Yikes! The lever frame might be from the 1920s but there has been no confirmation yet whether the faults lie in there or in the electrical gubbins elsewhere into which it is plumbed and which could be of rather more recent origin. The only other work that has been done is rewiring and the electrical kit such as relays. Many of these are refurbished by LU REW. Then there's things like speed control relays that were put in after Moorgate crash (mostly), but I don't know of any big failures there/ What has failed a fair few times is the new electric points at Praed Street! |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 02:29:14 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be dave
wrote this:- What has failed a fair few times is the new electric points at Praed Street! Interesting to know. An earlier poster said that it may be new equipment which is more prone to failure. I am reminded of the axle counters around the Severn Tunnel which couldn't cope with sunshine, leading to repeated failures and eventually a crash which appears to have been caused by the axle counters being reset without proper precautions (though this cannot be concluded as the witch-hunt atmosphere of the time (lessened but not totally gone these days I gather) meant that people are not likely to admit to mistakes). Obviously old signalling equipment could and can be affected by the sun too, but rodding runs have ways of dealing with this and wire adjusters are provided for signals. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54 |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On Mon, 7 Jun 2010, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 22:45:02 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote: On Sun, 6 Jun 2010, David Hansen wrote: On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 15:58:44 +0100 someone who may be john wright wrote this:- "When there was only one line for the whole of London" What can that refer to? Neither telephones nor rail lines makes much sense in this context. Indeed. The whole sentence is "At its nerve centre is a signal box first fitted in 1928 ? a relic from the first days of the network when there was only one line for the whole of London." I suspect that it is just bad journalism, mixing up things the journalist was told. As background the journalist may have been told that at one time Edgware Road was on the only underground railway line [1] not just in London but in the world. However, that was a long time before 1928. The photograph shows a miniature lever frame box typical of the era, particularly in London and SE England. Hang on, so that levery pipe-organ thing the guy in the photo is playing is from 1928? I assumed the story meant the signal box was built in 1928, not necessarily that all the equipment in it was still original. But i know nothing of these things. Hold on, i've just looked at the link Nick posted. It's not from 1928 - it's from 1926! Yikes! The lever frame might be from the 1920s but there has been no confirmation yet whether the faults lie in there or in the electrical gubbins elsewhere into which it is plumbed and which could be of rather more recent origin. Indeed. I should clarify that my 'Yikes' was not 'Yikes! That's terrible!', but 'Yikes! That's amazing!'. tom -- That's the problem with google. You can usually find what you're looking for with a fairly simple search. It's knowing *which* fairly simple search out of the millions of possible fairly simple searches you need to use to find it ;-) -- Paul D |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On Jun 7, 10:29*am, dave wrote:
Then there's things like speed control relays that were put in after Moorgate crash (mostly), Errr that is misleading. Speed control relays have been around on LT / LU for eons, they are nothing new introduced post Moorgate. Moorgate introduced TETS or whatever its called - Train Entering Terminal Station - which simply adds more timing relays and more train stops as any passenger train approach any buffers stops. -- Nick |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On 6 Jun., 16:58, john wright wrote:
"When there was only one line for the whole of London" What can that refer to? Neither telephones nor rail lines makes much sense in this context. When the various "lines" that now form the London Underground were built, they were separate railways and were referred to by their names, ie C&SLR etc. I assume that the practice of calling them lines must have come in when they were all part of London Underground. Does anybody know when the term "line" first came into use in this context |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 04:56:16 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be D7666
wrote this:- Speed control relays have been around on LT / LU for eons, they are nothing new introduced post Moorgate. Holding a signal and/or train stop at danger and only releasing it if a train operates track circuit(s) in more than a specified time, thus proving the train is going slowly enough, was certainly done before the crash at Moorgate. Sharp curves and approaching signals with a short overlap are examples. Presumably the way the front of trains used to enter platforms while the rear of the previous train was leaving [1] is another example. However, this was greatly extended after Moorgate to cover dead end tunnels. The original posting was not so much misleading as incomplete. [1] IIRC the equipment was fitted as part of 1930s schemes and removed during the "managing decline" era of the 1970s when it was thought trains would not need to be run close together again. There still seems to be some of this, but not as extensive as it once was. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54 |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
In message
ups.com amogles wrote: On 6 Jun., 16:58, john wright wrote: "When there was only one line for the whole of London" What can that refer to? Neither telephones nor rail lines makes much sense in this context. When the various "lines" that now form the London Underground were built, they were separate railways and were referred to by their names, ie C&SLR etc. I assume that the practice of calling them lines must have come in when they were all part of London Underground. Does anybody know when the term "line" first came into use in this context There was a very interesting early history book about the London Underground called "Rails through the clay" by Croombe and Jackson, which recounted how an American tycoon called Yerkes, who was a bit of a wide boy, but he also funded the biggest astronomical telescope of his day and had it called after himself, built the nucleus of the London Underground. It was originally going to be cable-hauled, hence the low profile. They were all nominally separate "lines" (an American term) though in fact all owned by Yerkes, and he also introduced the terms "northbound" and "southbound" to indicate direction of travel, which also have more an American sound than British. Michael Bell -- |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
"amogles" wrote in message ... On 6 Jun., 16:58, john wright wrote: "When there was only one line for the whole of London" What can that refer to? Neither telephones nor rail lines makes much sense in this context. When the various "lines" that now form the London Underground were built, they were separate railways and were referred to by their names, ie C&SLR etc. I assume that the practice of calling them lines must have come in when they were all part of London Underground. Does anybody know when the term "line" first came into use in this context 'Line' to refer to a railway company was certainly in use by 1895: 'The Importance of Being Earnest' - Jack Worthing had been left in a handbag in the Left Luggage Office at Victotia station - 'The Brighton Line' "The line is immaterial" (Can't you just hear Dame Edith Evans?). The Evening News coined the name 'Bakerloo Line' as shorthand for 'The Baker Street and Waterloo Railway' Peter |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
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1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
In article ,
Peter Masson wrote: "amogles" wrote in message ... On 6 Jun., 16:58, john wright wrote: "When there was only one line for the whole of London" What can that refer to? Neither telephones nor rail lines makes much sense in this context. When the various "lines" that now form the London Underground were built, they were separate railways and were referred to by their names, ie C&SLR etc. I assume that the practice of calling them lines must have come in when they were all part of London Underground. Does anybody know when the term "line" first came into use in this context 'Line' to refer to a railway company was certainly in use by 1895: 'The By the 1870s, when there was a popular music-hall song in northern pasts to the effect that: "He went to Bradford for to dine By the Lancashire and Yorkshire line He waited two weeks at bleak Low Moor And when he complained the porter swore That he should hace started the month before" (culled from Ahrons, and certainly applying to the 'old' L&Y of the pre-1880s period). -- Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair) |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On Jun 7, 2:24*pm, David Hansen
wrote: Speed control relays have been around on LT / LU for eons, they are nothing new introduced post *Moorgate. Holding a signal and/or train stop at danger and only releasing it if a train operates track circuit(s) in more than a specified time, thus proving the train is going slowly enough, was certainly done before the crash at Moorgate. Sharp curves and approaching signals with a short overlap are examples. Presumably the way the front of trains used to enter platforms while the rear of the previous train was leaving [1] is another example. However, this was greatly extended I dis-agree, still, with this term ''greatly extended''. The use of timed relays is and always has been much much much more extensive than curves and overlaps indeed is the very essence of headway control across the entire LU network, everywhere, including plain line with no restrictions. don't try and apply main line practice ''approach control'' to this, it is very very different. Even plain line LU automatic signalling is different - there are - in non signals engineers over simplified terms - 2 track circuits between every signal for every 1 on main lines. This is fundamental to LU signalling practice. The quantity of additional relays for TETS is not that significant. Baker Street Met IMR for example - a location I have visited several times for work - is (I think) about the number of fingers of one hand timed relays for the 2 bays TETS , but there are around a couple of dozen others (off the top of my head) doing non TETS stuff, to protect the 2 convergence points (the Met. City junction, and the north end throat, and always have done. Edgware Road for example does not have TETS, but it has - and indeed again always has had - *huge* numbers of timed relays. I've never been in Edgware Road cabin or relay rooms - much that I'd like too - and probably will one day legitimately get a professional related visit - but I travel through the place almost every day and looked up the signals diagrams to understand it all. -- Nick -- Nick |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On 07/06/2010 10:45, David Hansen wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 02:29:14 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be dave wrote this:- What has failed a fair few times is the new electric points at Praed Street! Interesting to know. An earlier poster said that it may be new equipment which is more prone to failure. I am reminded of the axle counters around the Severn Tunnel which couldn't cope with sunshine, leading to repeated failures and eventually a crash which appears to have been caused by the axle counters being reset without proper precautions (though this cannot be concluded as the witch-hunt atmosphere of the time (lessened but not totally gone these days I gather) meant that people are not likely to admit to mistakes). Obviously old signalling equipment could and can be affected by the sun too, but rodding runs have ways of dealing with this and wire adjusters are provided for signals. New equipment may very well be more prone to failure because there tends to be far more to go wrong. There was (in some places still is!) the old Victorian technology of someone pulling levers connected to wires connected to signals, also simple telegraph instruments and single stroke bells to communicate. Compare this with the "black art" of the modern electronic signalling systems with a maze of processors, communication links and detection systems which can be the devil's own game to "troubleshoot". Add to this the likelihood that any problems may be less obvious to the users - the old technology could largely be "seen". This is why many people will go to things like the mechanical organ museum in Norfolk - you can see the exhibits working and in many cases how they work. In future years, who is going to go to a museum to watch a board of integrated circuits sit there? Don't get me wrong - technology is great and the job I do is so much better now than with the antiquated kit we used to have to use. But discretion is required - it is a general rule that the simplest solution that does the job is also the best one. New technology should not automatically replace the old - it should give us more choice. Where the old way is reliable and does the job safely and efficiently, why throw it away? I have often thought that some of the older signalling technologies might actually serve the railway better than going too far down the fancy computer systems road, precisely because the modern stuff can be too complex and too vulnerable. Axle counters are a very good example. They are replacing track circuits because axle counters are allegedly more reliable. But when someone has on overnight possession [for engineering work], the track circuits are normally still working in the morning but the axle counters invariably have to be re-set. This requires either the first train or two being "talked past" signals to restore the settings, or the whole system being reset which means nothing moves for a few minutes. And its not just sunlight - track workers in the Bournemouth area were given strict instructions not to use mobile phones near the new axle counter heads because that also confused the signalling. I'm all for progress - but progress means that the new kit must work *better* than the old stuff did. If it is harder to use, more difficult to fault find, breaks down more, and exhibits its own new ways of going wrong, I'm afraid that's not "progress". I know of more than one modern system which has been introduced mostly to save on (staff) costs, and if it actually works better than before (in the case of Network Rail's new timetable system, if it works at all!), that seems to be a bonus. -- - Yokel - Yokel posts via a spam-trap account which is not read |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
In message
Yokel wrote: [snip] Add to this the likelihood that any problems may be less obvious to the users - the old technology could largely be "seen". This is why many people will go to things like the mechanical organ museum in Norfolk - you can see the exhibits working and in many cases how they work. In future years, who is going to go to a museum to watch a board of integrated circuits sit there? [snip] www.bletchleypark.org.uk/calendar/event_detail.rhtm?cat=special&recID=594620 -- Graeme Wall This address not read, substitute trains for rail Transport Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail Photo galleries at http://graeme-wall.fotopic.net/ |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 10:51:45 +0100 someone who may be Yokel
wrote this:- In future years, who is going to go to a museum to watch a board of integrated circuits sit there? While I agree with much of your post, there are already examples of old computer equipment on display in museums. It is often a non-working exhibit, but there are examples of working exhibits, Bletchley Park being the best known example. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54 |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 11:58:16 +0100
David Hansen wrote: On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 10:51:45 +0100 someone who may be Yokel wrote this:- In future years, who is going to go to a museum to watch a board of integrated circuits sit there? How is that any different to looking at a load of baked clay? While I agree with much of your post, there are already examples of old computer equipment on display in museums. It is often a non-working exhibit, but there are examples of working exhibits, Bletchley Park being the best known example. Theres some in the science museum but its a pretty half hearted effort. The difference engine replica is worth seeing though. B2003 |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
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1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On 7 June, 15:45, Michael Bell wrote:
In message ups.com * * * * * amogles wrote: On 6 Jun., 16:58, john wright wrote: "When there was only one line for the whole of London" What can that refer to? Neither telephones nor rail lines makes much sense in this context. When the various "lines" that now form the London Underground were built, they were separate railways and were referred to by their names, ie C&SLR etc. I assume that the practice of calling them lines must have come in when they were all part of London Underground. Does anybody know when the term "line" first came into use in this context There was a very interesting early history book about the London Underground called "Rails through the clay" by Croombe and Jackson, More recently, I was impressed with Christian Wolmar's book "the subterranean railway" which is a little more focussed on the economic, political and social aspects rather than the technological, but he certainly gives Yerkes some good coverage. which recounted how an American tycoon called Yerkes, who was a bit of a wide boy, but he also funded the biggest astronomical telescope of his day and had it called after himself, built the nucleus of the London Underground. It was originally going to be cable-hauled, hence the low profile. They were all nominally separate "lines" (an American term) though in fact all owned by Yerkes, and he also introduced the terms "northbound" and "southbound" to indicate direction of travel, which also have more an American sound than British. Now hang on a moment here, there are several independent events all being conflated into one. First of all, the only cable hauled line actually built was the Tower Subway, which was the first "deep bore" tube line, with a very small tunnel diameter indeed, and it did not last long, in part due to the opening of Tower Bridge. The same promoter who did the Tower Subway then came up with a more ambitious project linking the City with suburbs in South London, hence the name "City and South London Railway". It was planned to use larger tunnels than the Tower Subway (large enough that standard gauge track would fit), though still smaller than the current "tube" size. During construction, the decision was taken to install electric traction with locomotives rather than cable haulage. The design of the northern terminus, at King William Street had been made with cable haulage in mind, and the station was not well suited to electric operation, so the opportunity was taken when the line was extended northwards to replace it with a more suitable station at Bank. By the time Yerkes[1] came on the scene, the C&SLR, Waterloo and City and Central London Railway were all already operating [2], with different tunnel sizes and different electrification schemes. Yerkes bought the Metropolitan District, and bought a whole bunch of the schemes for underground railways that had received parliamentary approval after the success of the C&SLR, but had no money. He consolidate these into three railway companies: the Great Northern, Picadilly and Brompton Railway; the Charing Cross, Euston and Hampstead Railway; and the Baker Street and Waterloo Railway. Although each of these three, and the MDR, were run as separate companies, they were built to a common design, with the same electrification system (in the case of the MDR, only the electrification was the same). At this point, there are 6 tube lines, three in the Underground Group, one a subsidiary of the LSWR, and two independent. The Underground Group rectified this by buying the C&SLR and CLR, and converting them to Yerkes standard [3]. The other important thing that the Underground Group did was to introduce interavailable tickets and single unified branding. Both Yerkes, and Albert Stanley (later Lord Ashfield) both brought a significant amount of American terminology and ideas to the Underground Group, I don't think the use of "line" was one of them. [1] having first encountered this interesting character in print, I wondered for the longest time whether his name should be pronounced "yerks" (to rhyme with jerks) or "yerkees" (to rhyme with turkeys). I have since been told be someone I am prepared to trust in the matter that the second option is the correct one. [2] I can't remember off the top of my head when the Norther City line opened, but it may also have been around pre-Yerkes. [3] imperfectly in the case of the Central line, where the outer conductor rail is a bit higher than on other lines because of the way the tunnel linings were expanded. Robin |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
"bob" wrote [2] I can't remember off the top of my head when the Norther City line opened, but it may also have been around pre-Yerkes. Great Northern & City incorporated 1892, construction started 1898, opened 1904 (i.e after Yerkes had taken control of Underground Electric Railways. The GN&C was independent, though with links to the Great Northern, until it was taken over by the Metropolitan in 1913. It was operated with main line sized trains until 1939, after which it became an isolated part of the Northern Line, until it was transferred to BR for the Great Northern Electrics in 1976. As part of the Northern Line, the line from Drayton Park via Finsbury Park and Highgate to East Finchley was used for stock exchange (dragged) until it was taken out of use, after which stock exchange took place via Kings Cross and the Widened Lines, crossing to the Circle Line at Farringdon. Peter |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 13:04:13 +0100
Graeme wrote: Theres some in the science museum but its a pretty half hearted effort. The difference engine replica is worth seeing though. Given it is the first one actually constructed, is it really a replica? Fair point :) B2003 |
1928 equipment causing commuter misery at Edgware Road Tube
"bob" wrote in message
. ... [1] having first encountered this interesting character in print, I wondered for the longest time whether his name should be pronounced "yerks" (to rhyme with jerks) or "yerkees" (to rhyme with turkeys). I have since been told be someone I am prepared to trust in the matter that the second option is the correct one. I read Rails Through the Clay a few weeks ago - a fascinating read although not one to be undertaken lightly or when you don't have a lot of time on your hands. They were fairly clear that the chap in question was 'turkeys' rather than 'jerks'! James |
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