London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

---quote---
All trains on the London Underground should be driverless, according
to the Conservative group on the London Assembly.

In a proposal to the mayor, the Tories claim it would save about £141m-
a-year in wages and prevent strike action.
---/quote---

BBC News online story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10332333.stm

I suspect Bob Crow's analysis - that this is a bit of kite-flying - is
probably on the money.

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

I suspect Bob Crow's analysis - that this is a bit of kite-flying - is
probably on the money.

How could we ever have driverless trains? There'd be no one to shut the
doors at Kennington just as you're rushing to change trains from the Bank to
Charing Cross platform.

Ian

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On 17 June, 11:00, "Ian F." wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

...

I suspect Bob Crow's analysis - that this is a bit of kite-flying - is
probably on the money.

How could we ever have driverless trains? There'd be no one to shut the
doors at Kennington just as you're rushing to change trains from the Bank to
Charing Cross platform.

Ian

Or at Finsbury Park when you want to change from the Piccadilly line
to the Victoria line. Mind you I am sure that the line controllers
could achieve the same with judicious use of CCTV cameras.

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On Jun 17, 11:00*am, "Ian F." wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

...

I suspect Bob Crow's analysis - that this is a bit of kite-flying - is
probably on the money.

How could we ever have driverless trains? There'd be no one to shut the
doors at Kennington just as you're rushing to change trains from the Bank to
Charing Cross platform.

But the computers could be programmed to shut the doors perfectly to
miss connections. ;-)

Being serious for a millisecond the bit that the paper does not
mention is the cost of having to provide full height or half height
platform edge doors if the trains were to be fully driverless - i.e.
like the Singapore North East line or VAL systems. I think the half
height solution is being deployed in Paris and also in Japan and in
Singapore on the older lines whereas Singapore has PEDs on the newest
lines like the Circle and North East lines. MTR in Hong Kong has
retrofitted a lot of places with PEDs but not sure if that covers the
few open air / viaduct stations there.

Given the long standing propensity for Londoners to "chance their
arm" (literally) in leaping through closing tube doors there would be
a huge culture change needed if trains were to go fully driverless
rather than DLR style. Given the systems are much newer in other
countries there is no long standing "misbehaviour" to deal with.
There are also interesting issues like curved platforms in London
which make CCTV monitoring harder as well as how you deal with the
physical installation of PEDs or similar.

I'm not in the habit of giving credence to Mr Crow but I think an
interesting debate could follow on as to Londoners' attitudes to
driverless tube trains etc. A lot of research shows that passengers
like a visible staff presence on trains and in stations - hence the
staffing strategy on London Overground. Past experience has suggested
that some "safety based" strikes or disputes garnered some public
support. It looks a bit like Mr Crow is trying to do the same here.

I note that the previously seamless connections at Poplar on DLR are
now not quite so seamless with trains departing just as others arrive
or the "RTD" message beeping on one train before it does on the
opposite one thus shortening interchange times. I guess the much more
intensive service levels means every second counts in keeping to
schedule.

--
Paul C
via Google

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On 17 June, 11:32, Paul wrote:
On 17 June, 11:00, "Ian F." wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote in message

...

I suspect Bob Crow's analysis - that this is a bit of kite-flying - is
probably on the money.

How could we ever have driverless trains? There'd be no one to shut the
doors at Kennington just as you're rushing to change trains from the Bank to
Charing Cross platform.

Ian

Or at Finsbury Park when you want to change from the Piccadilly line
to the Victoria line. Mind you I am sure that the line controllers
could achieve the same with judicious use of CCTV cameras.

Bottom line is, you can't very well have staffless (which is what it
really means) trains without platform edge doors, although I am not
entirely certain of their efficacy.

An anorak string with a large bobble, of the kind that got a boy
killed in the Piccadilly a few years ago, might be able to get trapped
between both the train doors and the platform doors without detection,
although a person would presumably just be slammed into the latter
rather than dragged under the train.

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On 17 June, 13:18, MIG wrote:
On 17 June, 11:32, Paul wrote:





On 17 June, 11:00, "Ian F." wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote in message

...

I suspect Bob Crow's analysis - that this is a bit of kite-flying - is
probably on the money.

How could we ever have driverless trains? There'd be no one to shut the
doors at Kennington just as you're rushing to change trains from the Bank to
Charing Cross platform.

Ian

Or at Finsbury Park when you want to change from the Piccadilly line
to the Victoria line. Mind you I am sure that the line controllers
could achieve the same with judicious use of CCTV cameras.

Bottom line is, you can't very well have staffless (which is what it
really means) trains without platform edge doors, although I am not
entirely certain of their efficacy.

An anorak string with a large bobble, of the kind that got a boy
killed in the Piccadilly a few years ago, might be able to get trapped
between both the train doors and the platform doors without detection,
although a person would presumably just be slammed into the latter
rather than dragged under the train.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The metro in Lille is completely automatic, but is monitored by CCTV
at every station. Inside the trains whereby you can press a button and
speak to the line controller. In addition there are mobile patrols of
security staff ("Prevention - Transports") who provide a visible
presence at stations, and keep all the tramps, drunks and
troublemakers out of the way. There are also team of Revenue
Protection Inspectors.

Not sure that such a system would work in London, though. For one
thing, safety regulations after the Kings Cross fire would not permit
unstaffed stations undergound, and having unstaffed stations would be
an open invitation to Al-Qaeda to try a repeat of 7/7.

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On 17/06/2010 14:50, Paul wrote:

The metro in Lille is completely automatic, but is monitored by CCTV
at every station.

What stops the monitor monitors from going on strike every time the
World Cup is on?

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 05:16:46 -0700 (PDT)
Paul Corfield wrote:
I'm not in the habit of giving credence to Mr Crow but I think an
interesting debate could follow on as to Londoners' attitudes to
driverless tube trains etc. A lot of research shows that passengers
like a visible staff presence on trains and in stations - hence the
staffing strategy on London Overground. Past experience has suggested
that some "safety based" strikes or disputes garnered some public
support. It looks a bit like Mr Crow is trying to do the same here.

The problem with the deep level tube is that evacuation is difficult. You
need a member of staff around. Much as I can't stand Bob Crowe I'm with him
on this one - I personally wouldn't be happy travelling on a completely
unstaffed train. If the driver just because train captain DLR style that
would be fine however.

B2003

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 06:50:19 -0700 (PDT)
Paul wrote:
The metro in Lille is completely automatic, but is monitored by CCTV
at every station. Inside the trains whereby you can press a button and
speak to the line controller. In addition there are mobile patrols of

Also the tunnels are double track and quite large so once the train doors were
open escaping from the train would be a fairly simple process. Not so in
a deep level tube train.

B2003

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On 17/06/2010 15:22, d wrote:

If the driver just because train captain DLR style that
would be fine however.

How would that help anything? You'd still have to pay them, and cut the
service if they go on strike.

Do tube strikes cause an increase in deaths on the road? Would running
the trains unmanned when the drivers are on strike be safer than cutting
the service?

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 15:30:55 +0100
Basil Jet wrote:
On 17/06/2010 15:22, d wrote:

If the driver just because train captain DLR style that
would be fine however.

How would that help anything? You'd still have to pay them, and cut the
service if they go on strike.

It doesn't really. But you could pay them less than current drivers. Since
it would be a different less skilled role LU could just hire from outside and
wouldn't be oblidged to take on militant RMT activist former drivers.

Do tube strikes cause an increase in deaths on the road? Would running
the trains unmanned when the drivers are on strike be safer than cutting
the service?

No idea. All I can say is that I personally would not be happy travelling
on a deep level tube train with no staff on board.

B2003

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On 17 June, 16:02, wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 15:30:55 +0100

Basil Jet wrote:
On 17/06/2010 15:22, wrote:

If the driver just because train captain DLR style that
would be fine however.

How would that help anything? You'd still have to pay them, and cut the
service if they go on strike.

It doesn't really. But you could pay them less than current drivers. Since
it would be a different less skilled role LU could just hire from outside and
wouldn't be oblidged to take on militant RMT activist former drivers.

Do tube strikes cause an increase in deaths on the road? Would running
the trains unmanned when the drivers are on strike be safer than cutting
the service?

No idea. All I can say is that I personally would not be happy travelling
on a deep level tube train with no staff on board.

B2003

Bank DLR is a deep-level tube station served by driverless trains
(though they do have the PSA "guards").

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

Basil Jet wrote on 17 June 2010
15:19:27 ...
On 17/06/2010 14:50, Paul wrote:

The metro in Lille is completely automatic, but is monitored by CCTV
at every station.

What stops the monitor monitors from going on strike every time the
World Cup is on?

Every time there's a strike on the Paris Métro (which is quite often),
the driverless Line 14 always runs a normal service. Maybe there are
enough non-union managers to staff the control room on those days.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

In message , at 14:22:48 on Thu, 17 Jun
2010, d remarked:
The problem with the deep level tube is that evacuation is difficult. You
need a member of staff around. Much as I can't stand Bob Crowe I'm with him
on this one - I personally wouldn't be happy travelling on a completely
unstaffed train. If the driver just because train captain DLR style that
would be fine however.

Like the Victoria line has always been, you mean?
--
Roland Perry

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 08:45:42 -0700 (PDT)
"Dr. Sunil" wrote:
No idea. All I can say is that I personally would not be happy travelling
on a deep level tube train with no staff on board.

B2003

Bank DLR is a deep-level tube station served by driverless trains
(though they do have the PSA "guards").

And theres a walkway all along the side of the tunnel.

B2003

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 16:59:01 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:22:48 on Thu, 17 Jun
2010, d remarked:
The problem with the deep level tube is that evacuation is difficult. You
need a member of staff around. Much as I can't stand Bob Crowe I'm with him
on this one - I personally wouldn't be happy travelling on a completely
unstaffed train. If the driver just because train captain DLR style that
would be fine however.

Like the Victoria line has always been, you mean?

Yes, except he sits in the cab, he doesn't wander around the train. I wouldn't
care if he wandered around as long as there was a member of staff on board.

B2003

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

In message
, Dr.
Sunil writes

Bank DLR is a deep-level tube station served by driverless trains
(though they do have the PSA "guards").

And the DLR tunnels have walkways for easy evacuation in case of
problems - the deep-level tubes do not.
--
Paul Terry

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

"MIG" wrote in message
...
On 17 June, 11:32, Paul wrote:
On 17 June, 11:00, "Ian F." wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote in message

...

I suspect Bob Crow's analysis - that this is a bit of kite-flying -
is
probably on the money.

How could we ever have driverless trains? There'd be no one to shut the
doors at Kennington just as you're rushing to change trains from the
Bank to
Charing Cross platform.

Ian

Or at Finsbury Park when you want to change from the Piccadilly line
to the Victoria line. Mind you I am sure that the line controllers
could achieve the same with judicious use of CCTV cameras.

Bottom line is, you can't very well have staffless (which is what it
really means) trains without platform edge doors, although I am not
entirely certain of their efficacy.

An anorak string with a large bobble, of the kind that got a boy
killed in the Piccadilly a few years ago, might be able to get trapped
between both the train doors and the platform doors without detection,

Newer "automatic" doors are supposed to be able to tell if there is as much
as a piece of paper stuck between them.

tim

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On 17/06/2010 13:18, MIG wrote:

Bottom line is, you can't very well have staffless (which is what it
really means) trains without platform edge doors, although I am not
entirely certain of their efficacy.

Copenhagen and Kuala Lumpur do.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010, Paul wrote:

On 17 June, 11:00, "Ian F." wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

...

I suspect Bob Crow's analysis - that this is a bit of kite-flying - is
probably on the money.

How could we ever have driverless trains? There'd be no one to shut the
doors at Kennington just as you're rushing to change trains from the
Bank to Charing Cross platform.

Or at Finsbury Park when you want to change from the Piccadilly line to
the Victoria line. Mind you I am sure that the line controllers could
achieve the same with judicious use of CCTV cameras.

You evidently don't have faith in the ability of machines to inflict that
kind of suffering on people. And yet according to your headers, you're a
Windows user. Most odd.

tom

--
an expertly crafted mix of practical decision-making and drunken shouting

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010, Basil Jet wrote:

On 17/06/2010 14:50, Paul wrote:

The metro in Lille is completely automatic, but is monitored by CCTV at
every station.

What stops the monitor monitors from going on strike every time the
World Cup is on?

The fact that football isn't terribly popular in India yet. Where a job
is done over a wire, it can be offshored!

tom

--
Oh, well of course *everything* looks bad if you remember it

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On 17/06/2010 13:18, MIG wrote:
On 17 June, 11:32, wrote:
On 17 June, 11:00, "Ian wrote:

"Mizter wrote in message

...

I suspect Bob Crow's analysis - that this is a bit of kite-flying - is
probably on the money.

How could we ever have driverless trains? There'd be no one to shut the
doors at Kennington just as you're rushing to change trains from the Bank to
Charing Cross platform.

Ian

Or at Finsbury Park when you want to change from the Piccadilly line
to the Victoria line. Mind you I am sure that the line controllers
could achieve the same with judicious use of CCTV cameras.

Bottom line is, you can't very well have staffless (which is what it
really means) trains without platform edge doors, although I am not
entirely certain of their efficacy.

An anorak string with a large bobble, of the kind that got a boy
killed in the Piccadilly a few years ago, might be able to get trapped
between both the train doors and the platform doors without detection,
although a person would presumably just be slammed into the latter
rather than dragged under the train.

But they have them in Vancouver.

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On 17/06/2010 13:18, MIG wrote:
On 17 June, 11:32, wrote:
On 17 June, 11:00, "Ian wrote:

"Mizter wrote in message

...

I suspect Bob Crow's analysis - that this is a bit of kite-flying - is
probably on the money.

How could we ever have driverless trains? There'd be no one to shut the
doors at Kennington just as you're rushing to change trains from the Bank to
Charing Cross platform.

Ian

Or at Finsbury Park when you want to change from the Piccadilly line
to the Victoria line. Mind you I am sure that the line controllers
could achieve the same with judicious use of CCTV cameras.

Bottom line is, you can't very well have staffless (which is what it
really means) trains without platform edge doors, although I am not
entirely certain of their efficacy.

An anorak string with a large bobble, of the kind that got a boy
killed in the Piccadilly a few years ago, might be able to get trapped
between both the train doors and the platform doors without detection,
although a person would presumably just be slammed into the latter
rather than dragged under the train.
I think Detroit as well.

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 20:28:03 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote:
The problem with the deep level tube is that evacuation is difficult. You
need a member of staff around.

Do you really? I am struggling to think of an occasion when a driver on
his / her own have evacuated passengers down a tunnel with no support
from staff from stations / those who been brought in to manage an

The point is that if he had to he probably could. How long will it take
station staff to walk to the train compared to the driver already being there?

Even with the drive around we still had the situation of people stuck on
a central line train in mid summer for hours a few years back. Quite what the
morons in charge were thinking instead of just leading the passengers off is a
mystery that will probably remain unsolved.

Depending on how well SBS Transit managed such an event may colour my
view about completely unstaffed systems. In reality it's not a lot
different to getting in a lift - they're unstaffed and take you from one
point to another. Most people are completely unphased by using a lift.

And how long do most people spend in a lift? 30 seconds to go maybe 100 metres?
Its somewhat different.

Interesting that you want a driver on the train just in case and yet you
routinely condemn everyone who works for LUL as thick, useless, overpaid
and workshy. Why would you want a person in a train in a safety

Given how long my wife was delayed on the central line yesterday because
of a "signal failure" at shepherds bush that opinion hasn't changed.

question btw - there does appear to be a slight glimmer of double
standards here which is most unusual. You're usually consistently
negative and obnoxious about LUL.

When you have a screw and no tools, even a hammer would be better than nothing.

B2003

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 17/06/2010 13:18, MIG wrote:

Bottom line is, you can't very well have staffless (which is what it
really means) trains without platform edge doors, although I am not
entirely certain of their efficacy.

Copenhagen

only at the "open air" stations

tim

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

On 18/06/2010 12:38, tim.... wrote:
"Arthur wrote in message
o.uk...
On 17/06/2010 13:18, MIG wrote:

Bottom line is, you can't very well have staffless (which is what it
really means) trains without platform edge doors, although I am not
entirely certain of their efficacy.

Copenhagen

only at the "open air" stations

tim


What's the difference?

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

wrote in message
news:zQPSn.78996$oi7.70853@hurricane...
On 18/06/2010 12:38, tim.... wrote:
"Arthur wrote in message
o.uk...
On 17/06/2010 13:18, MIG wrote:

Bottom line is, you can't very well have staffless (which is what it
really means) trains without platform edge doors, although I am not
entirely certain of their efficacy.

Copenhagen

only at the "open air" stations

tim


What's the difference?

Dunno,

But ISTM that if you're using Copenhagen as a comparison for the Victoria
line (which I assume would be the easiest to convert as it already has
trains which can drive themselves) then only a comparison with the
underground stations is valid.

tim

London Assembly Tories propose driverless Tube trains
 

In message
,
Mizter T wrote:

All trains on the London Underground should be driverless, according
to the Conservative group on the London Assembly.

I suspect Bob Crow's analysis - that this is a bit of kite-flying - is
probably on the money.

The new signalling being designed for the Piccadilly Line involved
driverless trains.

If a train needed to be driven manually because of a problem, it would
be driven by someone sitting in the control centre looking at the view
from a camera mounted at the front of the train.

I don't know the current state of this project - it's been a couple of
years since I talked with my source on this.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org
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