Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

Does anyone know when the bus station and rear exit at Dalston Junction
is opening? It's been finished as far as I can see for a while but the
staff have no idea when.

Also, there's still very few people on the ELL - at least when I've been
on it - eg changing from a grossly overcrowded Jubilee at Canada Water
yesterday at about 6.30pm and heading north - I'm worried services will
be cut.

E.

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

eastender wrote:
Does anyone know when the bus station and rear exit at Dalston Junction
is opening? It's been finished as far as I can see for a while but the
staff have no idea when.

Also, there's still very few people on the ELL - at least when I've been
on it - eg changing from a grossly overcrowded Jubilee at Canada Water
yesterday at about 6.30pm and heading north - I'm worried services will
be cut.

E.

They can't cut the top bit without cutting the bottom bit, logically,
and from what I'm hearing people are preferring ELLX services into
Canada Water over Southeastern into London Bridge, so I think it's safe,
particularly if/when we get the step change in Jubilee capacity. Also
the northern bit is very much a work in progress due to City office
construction projects, Crossrail, extension to High & I etc. I don't
see any reason to suppose that it'll be any less successful than the
rest of the Overground once that's all in place.

Tom

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On 15 July, 11:05, Tom Barry wrote:
eastender wrote:
Does anyone know when the bus station and rear exit at Dalston Junction
is opening? It's been finished as far as I can see for a while but the
staff have no idea when.

Also, there's still very few people on the ELL - at least when I've been
on it - eg changing from a grossly overcrowded Jubilee at Canada Water
yesterday at about 6.30pm and heading north - I'm worried services will
be cut.

E.

They can't cut the top bit without cutting the bottom bit, logically,
and from what I'm hearing people are preferring ELLX services into
Canada Water over Southeastern into London Bridge, so I think it's safe,
particularly if/when we get the step change in Jubilee capacity. *Also
the northern bit is very much a work in progress due to City office
construction projects, Crossrail, extension to High & I etc. *I don't
see any reason to suppose that it'll be any less successful than the
rest of the Overground once that's all in place.

Tom

When I see ELL trains at New Cross, there is never more than a handful
of people at any time of day. That branch seems to be getting less
use now than it ever did.

The other branch seems to be more successful, or more heavily used
anyway. Partly it's down to that being what's more likely to turn
up. I mean, if you turn up randomly at Forest Hill, there's more
chance that the first train will be going to Canada Water. That
doesn't really mean it's preferred, just that people get on what comes
and don't change.

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On Jul 15, 12:29*pm, MIG wrote:

On 15 July, 11:05, Tom Barry wrote:

eastender wrote:
Does anyone know when the bus station and rear exit at Dalston Junction
is opening? It's been finished as far as I can see for a while but the
staff have no idea when.

Also, there's still very few people on the ELL - at least when I've been
on it - eg changing from a grossly overcrowded Jubilee at Canada Water
yesterday at about 6.30pm and heading north - I'm worried services will
be cut.

They can't cut the top bit without cutting the bottom bit, logically,
and from what I'm hearing people are preferring ELLX services into
Canada Water over Southeastern into London Bridge, so I think it's safe,
particularly if/when we get the step change in Jubilee capacity. *Also
the northern bit is very much a work in progress due to City office
construction projects, Crossrail, extension to High & I etc. *I don't
see any reason to suppose that it'll be any less successful than the
rest of the Overground once that's all in place.

When I see ELL trains at New Cross, there is never more than a handful
of people at any time of day. *That branch seems to be getting less
use now than it ever did.

The other branch seems to be more successful, or more heavily used
anyway. *Partly it's down to that being what's more likely to turn
up. *I mean, if you turn up randomly at Forest Hill, there's more
chance that the first train will be going to Canada Water. *That
doesn't really mean it's preferred, just that people get on what comes
and don't change.

Well, the interchange between ELL and Jubilee line at Canada Water is
very easy, compared to the interchange between NR and the Jubilee at
London Bridge - so for those heading west into town beyond London
Bridge on the Jubbly, the ELL route might well be preferred. Also, if
one is heading east on the Jubbly, then going to Canada Water would be
preferred choice rather than going all teh way in to London Bridge and
back out again. And it's not just people who work at Canary Wharf who
might be heading east.

I'd be interested to see New Cross at rush hour to try and observe the
flows.

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On 15 July, 13:12, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 15, 12:29*pm, MIG wrote:





On 15 July, 11:05, Tom Barry wrote:

eastender wrote:
Does anyone know when the bus station and rear exit at Dalston Junction
is opening? It's been finished as far as I can see for a while but the
staff have no idea when.

Also, there's still very few people on the ELL - at least when I've been
on it - eg changing from a grossly overcrowded Jubilee at Canada Water
yesterday at about 6.30pm and heading north - I'm worried services will
be cut.

They can't cut the top bit without cutting the bottom bit, logically,
and from what I'm hearing people are preferring ELLX services into
Canada Water over Southeastern into London Bridge, so I think it's safe,
particularly if/when we get the step change in Jubilee capacity. *Also
the northern bit is very much a work in progress due to City office
construction projects, Crossrail, extension to High & I etc. *I don't
see any reason to suppose that it'll be any less successful than the
rest of the Overground once that's all in place.

When I see ELL trains at New Cross, there is never more than a handful
of people at any time of day. *That branch seems to be getting less
use now than it ever did.

The other branch seems to be more successful, or more heavily used
anyway. *Partly it's down to that being what's more likely to turn
up. *I mean, if you turn up randomly at Forest Hill, there's more
chance that the first train will be going to Canada Water. *That
doesn't really mean it's preferred, just that people get on what comes
and don't change.

Well, the interchange between ELL and Jubilee line at Canada Water is
very easy, compared to the interchange between NR and the Jubilee at
London Bridge - so for those heading west into town beyond London
Bridge on the Jubbly, the ELL route might well be preferred. Also, if
one is heading east on the Jubbly, then going to Canada Water would be
preferred choice rather than going all teh way in to London Bridge and
back out again. And it's not just people who work at Canary Wharf who
might be heading east.

I'd be interested to see New Cross at rush hour to try and observe the
flows.

I will try to make a point of observing a train more carefully in the
morning peak when I get the chance. If I pass in the evening or at
weekends, they are always empty when I see them, but that's not peak
for people getting on them. If I pass in the morning, there's a good
chance I'd be in a train too full to see out of. Needs some strategic
positioning.

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

In article
,
Mizter T wrote:

Also, if one is heading east on the Jubbly, then going to Canada Water would be
preferred choice rather than going all teh way in to London Bridge and
back out again. And it's not just people who work at Canary Wharf who
might be heading east.

Yes the interchange is easy but as my wife knows - she works in Canary
Wharf - actually getting on the Jubilee is a different matter.

E.

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

MIG wrote:

Some lovely confused and wrong comments about Oyster on there ...

Yes, this is what we call 'members of the public'. Oyster's current
state of needing a degree to understand it is not, in my opinion, one of
its strengths.

I agree that London Bridge is a bluddy awful station, particularly for
interchanging, and always has been, but with the reduced overcrowding
on Southern, I think I'd always favour it unless I actually wanted the
Jubilee. I also wouldn't fancy my chances of getting into the Jubilee
in either direction at Canada Water.

Remember the Jubilee should have been operating at 30% higher capacity
for several months before the ELLX opened. Hardly the ELLX team's fault
Tube Lines mucked up so badly.

Tom

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 11:32:00 +0100
Tom Barry wrote:
Remember the Jubilee should have been operating at 30% higher capacity
for several months before the ELLX opened. Hardly the ELLX team's fault
Tube Lines mucked up so badly.

I could understand the problems with the jubilee if it was still 1995. But
surely in 2010 moving block ATO should be a turnkey install? Its not
exactly bleeding edge tech. Why are they having such problems?

B2003

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On 15 July, 13:58, MIG wrote:
On 15 July, 13:12, Mizter T wrote:





On Jul 15, 12:29*pm, MIG wrote:

On 15 July, 11:05, Tom Barry wrote:

eastender wrote:
Does anyone know when the bus station and rear exit at Dalston Junction
is opening? It's been finished as far as I can see for a while but the
staff have no idea when.

Also, there's still very few people on the ELL - at least when I've been
on it - eg changing from a grossly overcrowded Jubilee at Canada Water
yesterday at about 6.30pm and heading north - I'm worried services will
be cut.

They can't cut the top bit without cutting the bottom bit, logically,
and from what I'm hearing people are preferring ELLX services into
Canada Water over Southeastern into London Bridge, so I think it's safe,
particularly if/when we get the step change in Jubilee capacity. *Also
the northern bit is very much a work in progress due to City office
construction projects, Crossrail, extension to High & I etc. *I don't
see any reason to suppose that it'll be any less successful than the
rest of the Overground once that's all in place.

When I see ELL trains at New Cross, there is never more than a handful
of people at any time of day. *That branch seems to be getting less
use now than it ever did.

The other branch seems to be more successful, or more heavily used
anyway. *Partly it's down to that being what's more likely to turn
up. *I mean, if you turn up randomly at Forest Hill, there's more
chance that the first train will be going to Canada Water. *That
doesn't really mean it's preferred, just that people get on what comes
and don't change.

Well, the interchange between ELL and Jubilee line at Canada Water is
very easy, compared to the interchange between NR and the Jubilee at
London Bridge - so for those heading west into town beyond London
Bridge on the Jubbly, the ELL route might well be preferred. Also, if
one is heading east on the Jubbly, then going to Canada Water would be
preferred choice rather than going all teh way in to London Bridge and
back out again. And it's not just people who work at Canary Wharf who
might be heading east.

I'd be interested to see New Cross at rush hour to try and observe the
flows.

I will try to make a point of observing a train more carefully in the
morning peak when I get the chance. *If I pass in the evening or at
weekends, they are always empty when I see them, but that's not peak
for people getting on them. *If I pass in the morning, there's a good
chance I'd be in a train too full to see out of. *Needs some strategic
positioning.

Well, I've tried to observe during a few recent weekdays. Very crude
estimates

One time at 0813 there was a train in the platform with about thirty
people in it.

One time at 0805 there was no train and about forty people on the
platform.

One time at 0852 there was no train and one person on the platform.

Obviously, it makes a lot of difference whether the train is due to go
and whether any feeding NR trains have arrived from the south since
the last one left. I suspect most ELL users at New Cross may be local
rather than changing, but that would take a lot of standing around to
verify. On the other branch, people do seem to be travelling through.

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

"MIG" wrote in message
...

Obviously, it makes a lot of difference whether the train is due to go
and whether any feeding NR trains have arrived from the south since
the last one left. I suspect most ELL users at New Cross may be local
rather than changing, but that would take a lot of standing around to
verify. On the other branch, people do seem to be travelling through.

Does anyone know if there have ever been any serious proposals to extend
that leg of the ELL further? Despite a new up direction flyover being a
fairly obvious requirement, and a bit more double tracking (approximately
where the old depot was), surely an ELL extension in the general direction
of Lewisham would be a lower cost option than for example Bakerloo
extensions? Of course it depends to an extent on transfer to other lines
but Crossrail should help there...

Paul S

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On 21 July, 21:22, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message

...

Obviously, it makes a lot of difference whether the train is due to go
and whether any feeding NR trains have arrived from the south since
the last one left. *I suspect most ELL users at New Cross may be local
rather than changing, but that would take a lot of standing around to
verify. *On the other branch, people do seem to be travelling through..

Does anyone know if there have ever been any serious proposals to extend
that leg of the ELL further? *Despite a new up direction flyover being a
fairly obvious requirement, and a bit more double tracking (approximately
where the old depot was), surely an ELL extension in the general direction
of Lewisham would be a lower cost option than for example Bakerloo
extensions? *Of course it depends to an extent on transfer to other lines
but Crossrail should help there...

Paul S

There's a couple of significant differences in layout. Firstly, the
connection would have to be north of the station and run through the
existing NR platforms. At NXG the ELL southbound can come into its
own parallel platform before continuing south, rather than be held
outside. I can't see any way of extending the ELL platform at NX.

The other difference is that at NXG, the tracks are paired by
direction, so the flyover from the outer track works fine. At NX, the
tracks are effectively paired by terminus, ie Charing Cross v Cannon
Street.

A flyover would take services away from Charing Cross and they
couldn't stop at NX, but the southbound service would replace services
from Cannon Street.

A flat junction on the Cannon Street side might be able to work
without huge disruption, but when it comes to it I'm not sure that I'd
want yet more services diverted to Hackney instead of London Bridge
and beyond.

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On 21 July, 21:22, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message

...

Obviously, it makes a lot of difference whether the train is due to go
and whether any feeding NR trains have arrived from the south since
the last one left. *I suspect most ELL users at New Cross may be local
rather than changing, but that would take a lot of standing around to
verify. *On the other branch, people do seem to be travelling through..

Does anyone know if there have ever been any serious proposals to extend
that leg of the ELL further? *Despite a new up direction flyover being a
fairly obvious requirement, and a bit more double tracking (approximately
where the old depot was), surely an ELL extension in the general direction
of Lewisham would be a lower cost option than for example Bakerloo
extensions? *Of course it depends to an extent on transfer to other lines
but Crossrail should help there...


I'm pretty sure there's aren't any 'serious proposals',.
unfortunately.

New Cross ELL doesn't exist to serve a local population (given how
close New Cross Gate and other stations are). It exists to turn trains
around for operational reasons.

As I understand it, New Cross ELL is essentially a third platform at
New Cross Gate, used for terminating/reversing trains - at least
that's how TfL see it.

However... if the thinking around the purpose of New Cross ELL could
be changed, then extending the line would open up all sorts of
possibilities.

The biggest obstacle would probably be capacity at New Cross if it
became a through service, requiring two dedicated ELL platforms. But
once this is overcome, an extension to Lewisham could mean that South
Eastern trains don't need to call at St. John's, so that could become
a dedicated ELL station.

Beyond Lewisham it could perhaps take over the Bromley North branch.
That would be a good little route. Currently getting from Lewisham
onto the southbound ELL is hugely inconvenenient. Through services
would mean one fewer change and much improved journey times.

Another possible problem would be the bottlenecking of Surrey Quays,
which would probably end up with a fantasticly frequent northbound
service for anyone who happened to live there, but would really need
serious upgrading to handle the traffic of three feeder lines,
probably to a 4-platform layout.

But in theory it's a highly desirable proposition.

BTN

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On 28 July, 12:56, SirBenjamin wrote:
On 21 July, 21:22, "Paul Scott"
wrote:





"MIG" wrote in message

....

Obviously, it makes a lot of difference whether the train is due to go
and whether any feeding NR trains have arrived from the south since
the last one left. *I suspect most ELL users at New Cross may be local
rather than changing, but that would take a lot of standing around to
verify. *On the other branch, people do seem to be travelling through.

Does anyone know if there have ever been any serious proposals to extend
that leg of the ELL further? *Despite a new up direction flyover being a
fairly obvious requirement, and a bit more double tracking (approximately
where the old depot was), surely an ELL extension in the general direction
of Lewisham would be a lower cost option than for example Bakerloo
extensions? *Of course it depends to an extent on transfer to other lines
but Crossrail should help there...

I'm pretty sure there's aren't any 'serious proposals',.
unfortunately.

New Cross ELL doesn't exist to serve a local population (given how
close New Cross Gate and other stations are). It exists to turn trains
around for operational reasons.

Not actually true. There's a large flow of students to Goldsmiths,
for example, some of them finding cheap lodgings in places like
Hackney and Whitechapel.


As I understand it, New Cross ELL is essentially a third platform at
New Cross Gate, used for terminating/reversing trains - at least
that's how TfL see it.

However... if the thinking around the purpose of New Cross ELL could
be changed, then extending the line would open up all sorts of
possibilities.

The biggest obstacle would probably be capacity at New Cross if it
became a through service, requiring two dedicated ELL platforms. But
once this is overcome, an extension to Lewisham could mean that South
Eastern trains don't need to call at St. John's, so that could become
a dedicated ELL station.

Bollox. Why should people at St Johns lose their service to central
London? Leave St Johns alone and don't believe the stupid myths. By
the way, nothing ever stops at Watford Junction because my regular
train doesn't.


Beyond Lewisham it could perhaps take over the Bromley North branch.
That would be a good little route. Currently getting from Lewisham
onto the southbound ELL is hugely inconvenenient. Through services
would mean one fewer change and much improved journey times.

But there would need to be paths and a suitable track arrangement (see
my other post).



Another possible problem would be the bottlenecking of Surrey Quays,
which would probably end up with a fantasticly frequent northbound
service for anyone who happened to live there, but would really need
serious upgrading to handle the traffic of three feeder lines,
probably to a 4-platform layout.

But in theory it's a highly desirable proposition.

BTN- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On 28 July, 12:56, SirBenjamin wrote:
On 21 July, 21:22, "Paul Scott"
wrote:



"MIG" wrote in message

....

Obviously, it makes a lot of difference whether the train is due to go
and whether any feeding NR trains have arrived from the south since
the last one left. *I suspect most ELL users at New Cross may be local
rather than changing, but that would take a lot of standing around to
verify. *On the other branch, people do seem to be travelling through.

Does anyone know if there have ever been any serious proposals to extend
that leg of the ELL further? *Despite a new up direction flyover being a
fairly obvious requirement, and a bit more double tracking (approximately
where the old depot was), surely an ELL extension in the general direction
of Lewisham would be a lower cost option than for example Bakerloo
extensions? *Of course it depends to an extent on transfer to other lines
but Crossrail should help there...

I'm pretty sure there's aren't any 'serious proposals',.
unfortunately.

New Cross ELL doesn't exist to serve a local population (given how
close New Cross Gate and other stations are). It exists to turn trains
around for operational reasons.

As I understand it, New Cross ELL is essentially a third platform at
New Cross Gate, used for terminating/reversing trains - at least
that's how TfL see it.

However... if the thinking around the purpose of New Cross ELL could
be changed, then extending the line would open up all sorts of
possibilities.

The biggest obstacle would probably be capacity at New Cross if it
became a through service, requiring two dedicated ELL platforms. But
once this is overcome, an extension to Lewisham could mean that South
Eastern trains don't need to call at St. John's, so that could become
a dedicated ELL station.

Beyond Lewisham it could perhaps take over the Bromley North branch.
That would be a good little route. Currently getting from Lewisham
onto the southbound ELL is hugely inconvenenient. Through services
would mean one fewer change and much improved journey times.

Another possible problem would be the bottlenecking of Surrey Quays,
which would probably end up with a fantasticly frequent northbound
service for anyone who happened to live there, but would really need
serious upgrading to handle the traffic of three feeder lines,
probably to a 4-platform layout.

But in theory it's a highly desirable proposition.

BTN

Once upon a time there was a connection from the ELL to New Cross down
through platform, and another connection from the up side (fast) to
the ELL, merging close to Canal Junction. Both were removed in the
1960s.

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

"Dr. Sunil" wrote in message
...
On 28 July, 12:56, SirBenjamin wrote:
On 21 July, 21:22, "Paul Scott"
wrote:



"MIG" wrote in message

...

Obviously, it makes a lot of difference whether the train is due to go
and whether any feeding NR trains have arrived from the south since
the last one left. I suspect most ELL users at New Cross may be local
rather than changing, but that would take a lot of standing around to
verify. On the other branch, people do seem to be travelling through.

Does anyone know if there have ever been any serious proposals to extend
that leg of the ELL further? Despite a new up direction flyover being a
fairly obvious requirement, and a bit more double tracking
(approximately
where the old depot was), surely an ELL extension in the general
direction
of Lewisham would be a lower cost option than for example Bakerloo
extensions? Of course it depends to an extent on transfer to other lines
but Crossrail should help there...

I'm pretty sure there's aren't any 'serious proposals',.
unfortunately.

New Cross ELL doesn't exist to serve a local population (given how
close New Cross Gate and other stations are). It exists to turn trains
around for operational reasons.

As I understand it, New Cross ELL is essentially a third platform at
New Cross Gate, used for terminating/reversing trains - at least
that's how TfL see it.

However... if the thinking around the purpose of New Cross ELL could
be changed, then extending the line would open up all sorts of
possibilities.

The biggest obstacle would probably be capacity at New Cross if it
became a through service, requiring two dedicated ELL platforms. But
once this is overcome, an extension to Lewisham could mean that South
Eastern trains don't need to call at St. John's, so that could become
a dedicated ELL station.

Beyond Lewisham it could perhaps take over the Bromley North branch.
That would be a good little route. Currently getting from Lewisham
onto the southbound ELL is hugely inconvenenient. Through services
would mean one fewer change and much improved journey times.

Another possible problem would be the bottlenecking of Surrey Quays,
which would probably end up with a fantasticly frequent northbound
service for anyone who happened to live there, but would really need
serious upgrading to handle the traffic of three feeder lines,
probably to a 4-platform layout.

But in theory it's a highly desirable proposition.

BTN

Once upon a time there was a connection from the ELL to New Cross down
through platform, and another connection from the up side (fast) to
the ELL, merging close to Canal Junction. Both were removed in the
1960s.

-----------

The track bed is still there but a signal "sub station" was put there as
part of the LB resignalling in 1976.

MaxB

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On 28 July, 18:44, "Batman55" wrote:
"Dr. Sunil" wrote in message

...
On 28 July, 12:56, SirBenjamin wrote:





On 21 July, 21:22, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

"MIG" wrote in message

...

Obviously, it makes a lot of difference whether the train is due to go
and whether any feeding NR trains have arrived from the south since
the last one left. I suspect most ELL users at New Cross may be local
rather than changing, but that would take a lot of standing around to
verify. On the other branch, people do seem to be travelling through.

Does anyone know if there have ever been any serious proposals to extend
that leg of the ELL further? Despite a new up direction flyover being a
fairly obvious requirement, and a bit more double tracking
(approximately
where the old depot was), surely an ELL extension in the general
direction
of Lewisham would be a lower cost option than for example Bakerloo
extensions? Of course it depends to an extent on transfer to other lines
but Crossrail should help there...

I'm pretty sure there's aren't any 'serious proposals',.
unfortunately.

New Cross ELL doesn't exist to serve a local population (given how
close New Cross Gate and other stations are). It exists to turn trains
around for operational reasons.

As I understand it, New Cross ELL is essentially a third platform at
New Cross Gate, used for terminating/reversing trains - at least
that's how TfL see it.

However... if the thinking around the purpose of New Cross ELL could
be changed, then extending the line would open up all sorts of
possibilities.

The biggest obstacle would probably be capacity at New Cross if it
became a through service, requiring two dedicated ELL platforms. But
once this is overcome, an extension to Lewisham could mean that South
Eastern trains don't need to call at St. John's, so that could become
a dedicated ELL station.

Beyond Lewisham it could perhaps take over the Bromley North branch.
That would be a good little route. Currently getting from Lewisham
onto the southbound ELL is hugely inconvenenient. Through services
would mean one fewer change and much improved journey times.

Another possible problem would be the bottlenecking of Surrey Quays,
which would probably end up with a fantasticly frequent northbound
service for anyone who happened to live there, but would really need
serious upgrading to handle the traffic of three feeder lines,
probably to a 4-platform layout.

But in theory it's a highly desirable proposition.

BTN

Once upon a time there was a connection from the ELL to New Cross down
through platform, and another connection from the up side (fast) to
the ELL, merging close to Canal Junction. Both were removed in the
1960s.

-----------

The track bed is still there but a signal "sub station" was put there as
part of the LB resignalling in 1976.

MaxB-

Also, in those days there would have been platforms on that side of
the tracks, but now there aren't, so the connection on the "fast" side
wouldn't be much use.

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

If it's not practical to provide East London Line service to Leaisham,
how about he suggestion I made previously to e-open Brockly Lane
station, so at least it could be reached by one change there?

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On Jul 30, 2:28*pm, wrote:
If it's not practical to provide East London Line service to [Lewisham],
how about he suggestion I made previously to e-open [Brockley] Lane
station, so at least it could be reached by one change there?

In terms of any cost-benefit analysis, the possible re-opening of
Brockley Lane wouldn't come in anywhere even remotely near the top of
a 'dream schemes' list for transport improvements in London I'm
afraid.

Somewhat further up that hypothetical list would be an improvement to
the half-hourly Victoria-Dartford service that uses that line -
currently it's Mon-Sat only, ends early at around 8pm (and starts a
little late too).

Those heading to Lewisham can also use the bus from either NX or NXG
to get there, or if coming from points north on the ELL could switch
to the DLR at Shadwell for Lewisham.

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On 30 July, 15:07, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 30, 2:28*pm, wrote:

If it's not practical to provide East London Line service to [Lewisham],
how about he suggestion I made previously to e-open [Brockley] Lane
station, so at least it could be reached by one change there?

In terms of any cost-benefit analysis, the possible re-opening of
Brockley Lane wouldn't come in anywhere even remotely near the top of
a 'dream schemes' list for transport improvements in London I'm
afraid.

Somewhat further up that hypothetical list would be an improvement to
the half-hourly Victoria-Dartford service that uses that line -
currently it's Mon-Sat only, ends early at around 8pm (and starts a
little late too).

Those heading to Lewisham can also use the bus from either NX or NXG
to get there, or if coming from points north on the ELL could switch
to the DLR at Shadwell for Lewisham.

Opening a station at Brixton on that route would be more useful, but
also ain't gonna happen.

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On Jul 30, 4:54*pm, MIG wrote:

On 30 July, 15:07, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 30, 2:28*pm, wrote:

If it's not practical to provide East London Line service to [Lewisham],
how about he suggestion I made previously to e-open [Brockley] Lane
station, so at least it could be reached by one change there?

In terms of any cost-benefit analysis, the possible re-opening of
Brockley Lane wouldn't come in anywhere even remotely near the top of
a 'dream schemes' list for transport improvements in London I'm
afraid.

Somewhat further up that hypothetical list would be an improvement to
the half-hourly Victoria-Dartford service that uses that line -
currently it's Mon-Sat only, ends early at around 8pm (and starts a
little late too).

Those heading to Lewisham can also use the bus from either NX or NXG
to get there, or if coming from points north on the ELL could switch
to the DLR at Shadwell for Lewisham.

Opening a station at Brixton on that route would be more useful, but
also ain't gonna happen.

Well quite - a high-level Brixton station (on the Atlantic / South
London line) would be rather higher up that hypothetical wish list,
but it wasn't really on the agenda during the supposed times of plenty
so it ain't got much chance of happening any time soon.

(Though the sight of four London Overground ELL trains an hour
floating over Brixton might provide a small degree of impetus to the
idea that a station there - serving both ELL and Vic-Dartford trains -
might be a good idea. The problem is the large degree of dosh that
would be needed to make it happen. Oh well.)

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On Jul 30, 5:18*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 30, 4:54*pm, MIG wrote:



On 30 July, 15:07, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 30, 2:28*pm, wrote:

If it's not practical to provide East London Line service to [Lewisham],
how about he suggestion I made previously to e-open [Brockley] Lane
station, so at least it could be reached by one change there?

In terms of any cost-benefit analysis, the possible re-opening of
Brockley Lane wouldn't come in anywhere even remotely near the top of
a 'dream schemes' list for transport improvements in London I'm
afraid.

Somewhat further up that hypothetical list would be an improvement to
the half-hourly Victoria-Dartford service that uses that line -
currently it's Mon-Sat only, ends early at around 8pm (and starts a
little late too).

Those heading to Lewisham can also use the bus from either NX or NXG
to get there, or if coming from points north on the ELL could switch
to the DLR at Shadwell for Lewisham.

Opening a station at Brixton on that route would be more useful, but
also ain't gonna happen.

Well quite - a high-level Brixton station (on the Atlantic / South
London line) would be rather higher up that hypothetical wish list,
but it wasn't really on the agenda during the supposed times of plenty
so it ain't got much chance of happening any time soon.

(Though the sight of four London Overground ELL trains an hour
floating over Brixton might provide a small degree of impetus to the
idea that a station there - serving both ELL and Vic-Dartford trains -
might be a good idea. The problem is the large degree of dosh that
would be needed to make it happen. Oh well.)


An improved service on the lewisham line via peckham rye that stopped
at Clapham high street / Clapham North would be higher up my personal
wishlist.

At the moment, getting from Lewisham to Tooting just seem
conspiratorially difficult.

The Dartford-Victoria via Lewisham service only runs every half hour,
and you can change at Peckham Rye, only for the Sutton trains from
London bridge to non-stop there a few minutes later. I don't
understand why some journeys of only a few miles need to be so
difficult.

BTN

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On Jul 28, 2:14*pm, MIG wrote:

New Cross ELL doesn't exist to serve a local population (given how
close New Cross Gate and other stations are). It exists to turn trains
around for operational reasons.

Not actually true. *There's a large flow of students to Goldsmiths,
for example, some of them finding cheap lodgings in places like
Hackney and Whitechapel.


My point is that New Cross Gate is so close anyway, it's not a unique
selling point of New Cross.

If I was heading to Goldsmiths or anywhere else in the vicinity, I'd
get on the first train and wouldn't care if it was New Cross or New
Cross Gate. What is the extra walking time? 6-7 minutes max?


As I understand it, New Cross ELL is essentially a third platform at
New Cross Gate, used for terminating/reversing trains - at least
that's how TfL see it.

However... if the thinking around the purpose of New Cross ELL could
be changed, then extending the line would open up all sorts of
possibilities.

The biggest obstacle would probably be capacity at New Cross if it
became a through service, requiring two dedicated ELL platforms. But
once this is overcome, an extension to Lewisham could mean that South
Eastern trains don't need to call at St. John's, so that could become
a dedicated ELL station.

Bollox. *Why should people at St Johns lose their service to central
London? *Leave St Johns alone and don't believe the stupid myths. *By
the way, nothing ever stops at Watford Junction because my regular
train doesn't.


St. Johns is (marginally) my nearest station, but I never use it to
get to central London. Lewisham is close by if I want to get to London
Bridge, Charing X or Cannon St etc. Elverson Road DLR is close by for
getting to Canary Wharf or Bank.

I don't agree that providing services to the same destination from
starting points all very close together, while leaving other
destinations almost unreachable is a good basis for a transport
policy.

If St. John's station took me to different places, I might actually
start using the station. As it is, it takes me to the same places I
could get to from Lewisham, but typically with a much longer wait,
hence my non-use.


Beyond Lewisham it could perhaps take over the Bromley North branch.
That would be a good little route. Currently getting from Lewisham
onto the southbound ELL is hugely inconvenenient. Through services
would mean one fewer change and much improved journey times.

But there would need to be paths and a suitable track arrangement (see
my other post).


Yeah, it's not gonna happen. So many other things will snaffle up the
funding.

BTN

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On Jul 30, 2:28*pm, wrote:
If it's not practical to provide East London Line service to Leaisham,
how about he suggestion I made previously to e-open Brockly Lane
station, so at least it could be reached by one change there?


Yep, a Brockley interchange would be very useful.

Unfortunately, the philosophy of the London Overground appears to be
to avoid useful interchanges unless someone else pays for them.

North of Brockley, the line cross the London Bridge - Greenwich line,
with no interchange, there then follow non-interchances with the main
lines into Fenchurch and Liverpool streets and the central line in
shoreditch.

Going around the NLL, there are something like six lines crossed
without interchanges between Dalston and Willesdon junction.

Only on the WLL portion has real progress been made, with the stations
at Shepherds Bush and West Brompton, and one of those only happened
because Westfield paid for it.

BTN

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On 3 Aug, 12:10, SirBenjamin wrote:
On Jul 30, 5:18*pm, Mizter T wrote:



On Jul 30, 4:54*pm, MIG wrote:

On 30 July, 15:07, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 30, 2:28*pm, wrote:

If it's not practical to provide East London Line service to [Lewisham],
how about he suggestion I made previously to e-open [Brockley] Lane
station, so at least it could be reached by one change there?

In terms of any cost-benefit analysis, the possible re-opening of
Brockley Lane wouldn't come in anywhere even remotely near the top of
a 'dream schemes' list for transport improvements in London I'm
afraid.

Somewhat further up that hypothetical list would be an improvement to
the half-hourly Victoria-Dartford service that uses that line -
currently it's Mon-Sat only, ends early at around 8pm (and starts a
little late too).

Those heading to Lewisham can also use the bus from either NX or NXG
to get there, or if coming from points north on the ELL could switch
to the DLR at Shadwell for Lewisham.

Opening a station at Brixton on that route would be more useful, but
also ain't gonna happen.

Well quite - a high-level Brixton station (on the Atlantic / South
London line) would be rather higher up that hypothetical wish list,
but it wasn't really on the agenda during the supposed times of plenty
so it ain't got much chance of happening any time soon.

(Though the sight of four London Overground ELL trains an hour
floating over Brixton might provide a small degree of impetus to the
idea that a station there - serving both ELL and Vic-Dartford trains -
might be a good idea. The problem is the large degree of dosh that
would be needed to make it happen. Oh well.)

An improved service on the lewisham line via peckham rye that stopped
at Clapham high street / Clapham North would be higher up my personal
wishlist.

At the moment, getting from Lewisham to Tooting just seem
conspiratorially difficult.

The Dartford-Victoria via Lewisham service only runs every half hour,
and you can change at Peckham Rye, only for the Sutton trains from
London bridge to non-stop there a few minutes later. I don't
understand why some journeys of only a few miles need to be so
difficult.

BTN

There were platforms at Wandsworth Road on the Southeastern tracks.
They closed in 1916.

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On Aug 3, 12:31*pm, SirBenjamin wrote:

On Jul 30, 2:28*pm, wrote:

If it's not practical to provide East London Line service to Lewisham,
how about he suggestion I made previously to e-open Brockley Lane
station, so at least it could be reached by one change there?

Yep, a Brockley interchange would be very useful.

Unfortunately, the philosophy of the London Overground appears to be
to avoid useful interchanges unless someone else pays for them.

North of Brockley, the line cross the London Bridge - Greenwich line,
with no interchange, there then follow non-interchances with the main
lines into Fenchurch and Liverpool streets and the central line in
shoreditch.

Going around the NLL, there are something like six lines crossed
without interchanges between Dalston and Willesdon junction.

Only on the WLL portion has real progress been made, with the stations
at Shepherds Bush and West Brompton, and one of those only happened
because Westfield paid for it.

It's very (very) easy to look at a map and talk about building
interchanges where lines cross, but actually building such
interchanges is very (very) costly. To say that the "philosophy" of LO
is to "avoid useful interchanges" is just daft - the way things are
now is a legacy of how the railways developed.

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On 3 Aug, 13:21, Mizter T wrote:
On Aug 3, 12:31*pm, SirBenjamin wrote:



On Jul 30, 2:28*pm, wrote:

If it's not practical to provide East London Line service to Lewisham,
how about he suggestion I made previously to e-open Brockley Lane
station, so at least it could be reached by one change there?

Yep, a Brockley interchange would be very useful.

Unfortunately, the philosophy of the London Overground appears to be
to avoid useful interchanges unless someone else pays for them.

North of Brockley, the line cross the London Bridge - Greenwich line,
with no interchange, there then follow non-interchances with the main
lines into Fenchurch and Liverpool streets and the central line in
shoreditch.

Going around the NLL, there are something like six lines crossed
without interchanges between Dalston and Willesdon junction.

Only on the WLL portion has real progress been made, with the stations
at Shepherds Bush and West Brompton, and one of those only happened
because Westfield paid for it.

It's very (very) easy to look at a map and talk about building
interchanges where lines cross, but actually building such
interchanges is very (very) costly. To say that the "philosophy" of LO
is to "avoid useful interchanges" is just daft - the way things are
now is a legacy of how the railways developed.

East Brixton station was only a stone's throw from Loughborough
Junction (which itself had platforms on the Denmark Hill tracks, and
the disused tracks towards Brixton. The current Brixton itself had
platforms on the Southeastern tracks towards Denmark Hill.

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On Aug 3, 12:10*pm, SirBenjamin wrote:

On Jul 30, 5:18*pm, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 30, 4:54*pm, MIG wrote:

On 30 July, 15:07, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 30, 2:28*pm, wrote:

If it's not practical to provide East London Line service to [Lewisham],
how about he suggestion I made previously to e-open [Brockley] Lane
station, so at least it could be reached by one change there?

In terms of any cost-benefit analysis, the possible re-opening of
Brockley Lane wouldn't come in anywhere even remotely near the top of
a 'dream schemes' list for transport improvements in London I'm
afraid.

Somewhat further up that hypothetical list would be an improvement to
the half-hourly Victoria-Dartford service that uses that line -
currently it's Mon-Sat only, ends early at around 8pm (and starts a
little late too).

Those heading to Lewisham can also use the bus from either NX or NXG
to get there, or if coming from points north on the ELL could switch
to the DLR at Shadwell for Lewisham.

Opening a station at Brixton on that route would be more useful, but
also ain't gonna happen.

Well quite - a high-level Brixton station (on the Atlantic / South
London line) would be rather higher up that hypothetical wish list,
but it wasn't really on the agenda during the supposed times of plenty
so it ain't got much chance of happening any time soon.

(Though the sight of four London Overground ELL trains an hour
floating over Brixton might provide a small degree of impetus to the
idea that a station there - serving both ELL and Vic-Dartford trains -
might be a good idea. The problem is the large degree of dosh that
would be needed to make it happen. Oh well.)

An improved service on the lewisham line via peckham rye that stopped
at Clapham high street / Clapham North would be higher up my personal
wishlist.

It'd be great, yes - it's (remotely) possible that the Dartford-
Victoria (via Lewisham) trains might also stop at Clapham High Street
and Wandsworth Rd when the South London Line (Victoria-London Bridge)
service is withdrawn (and ELLX phase 2 to Clapham Junction starts).


At the moment, getting from Lewisham to Tooting just seem
conspiratorially difficult.

It's a bit of a *******, no doubt.


The Dartford-Victoria via Lewisham service only runs every half hour,
and you can change at Peckham Rye, only for the Sutton trains from
London bridge to non-stop there a few minutes later. I don't
understand why some journeys of only a few miles need to be so
difficult.

Well, there's Lewisham to Denmark Hill (on the aforementioned
Southeastern service), then the South London Line from Denmark Hill
(same platform) to Clapham High Street, then the Northern line from
Clapham North. Under the current timetable, from Lewisham to Clapham
HS the connection at Denmark Hill is good - just five minutes wait on
the same platform for the SLL train (that's *if* things are all
running to time - but if the train from Lewisham is late, the half-
hourly SLL connection could well be missed).

Going the other way however it's no good - a wait of over twenty
minutes at Denmark Hill (though I spose it's not the worst place to be
stuck as there's a good pub on top of the station!).

My only other idea was to wonder if you were anywhere near Crofton
Park, and take a train to Elephant & Castle then change for a train to
Tooting - but the timetables aren't friendly to that idea, as there's
a lengthy wait at the Elephant - so lengthy in fact that one journey
planner actually suggests changing at Blackfriars (maybe the planner
knows there's no nice pub at E&C to while away your time at whilst you
wait!).

But otherwise it's the route I'm sure you take - train to London
Bridge, Northern line from there down to Tooting.

(Tried cycling it? It's a good way of dealing with frustrating
journeys such as this one.)

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On Jul 15, 2:19*pm, eastender wrote:

In article
,
*Mizter T wrote:

Also, if one is heading east on the Jubbly, then going to Canada Water
would be preferred choice rather than going all the way in to London Bridge
and back out again. And it's not just people who work at Canary Wharf
who might be heading east.

Yes the interchange is easy but as my wife knows - she works in Canary
Wharf - actually getting on the Jubilee is a different matter.

At peaks times, yes, the Jubilee is crammed solid (best to head via
Shadwell and the DLR instead), but outside of peak times it's quite do-
able. (And there are all sorts of journeys that don't happen at peak
times, or at least not at the height of the peak.)

Dalston J bus opening and ELL worry
 

On 3 Aug, 12:19, SirBenjamin wrote:
On Jul 28, 2:14*pm, MIG wrote:



New Cross ELL doesn't exist to serve a local population (given how
close New Cross Gate and other stations are). It exists to turn trains
around for operational reasons.

Not actually true. *There's a large flow of students to Goldsmiths,
for example, some of them finding cheap lodgings in places like
Hackney and Whitechapel.

My point is that New Cross Gate is so close anyway, it's not a unique
selling point of New Cross.

If I was heading to Goldsmiths or anywhere else in the vicinity, I'd
get on the first train and wouldn't care if it was New Cross or New
Cross Gate. What is the extra walking time? 6-7 minutes max?





As I understand it, New Cross ELL is essentially a third platform at
New Cross Gate, used for terminating/reversing trains - at least
that's how TfL see it.

However... if the thinking around the purpose of New Cross ELL could
be changed, then extending the line would open up all sorts of
possibilities.

The biggest obstacle would probably be capacity at New Cross if it
became a through service, requiring two dedicated ELL platforms. But
once this is overcome, an extension to Lewisham could mean that South
Eastern trains don't need to call at St. John's, so that could become
a dedicated ELL station.

Bollox. *Why should people at St Johns lose their service to central
London? *Leave St Johns alone and don't believe the stupid myths. *By
the way, nothing ever stops at Watford Junction because my regular
train doesn't.

St. Johns is (marginally) my nearest station, but I never use it to
get to central London. Lewisham is close by if I want to get to London
Bridge, Charing X or Cannon St etc. Elverson Road DLR is close by for
getting to Canary Wharf or Bank.

I don't agree that providing services to the same destination from
starting points all very close together, while leaving other
destinations almost unreachable is a good basis for a transport
policy.

If St. John's station took me to different places, I might actually
start using the station. As it is, it takes me to the same places I
could get to from Lewisham, but typically with a much longer wait,
hence my non-use.

6 tph evenly spaced to (LondonBridgen)Cannon Street daytime Mondays to
Saturdays, 2 tph to (LondonBridgen)Charing Cross late evenings and
Sundays. A lot better than fifteen to twenty years ago, which may
have shaped some memories, but the main issue then was the weekend
closure.

Lewisham offers Charing Cross and Victoria during the day, but both
with effectively a half-hourly service. Before the December change
there were 6 tph to Charing Cross, flighted to leave 23-minute gaps.
Now it's 4 tph with the a similar gap.


Beyond Lewisham it could perhaps take over the Bromley North branch.
That would be a good little route. Currently getting from Lewisham
onto the southbound ELL is hugely inconvenenient. Through services
would mean one fewer change and much improved journey times.

But there would need to be paths and a suitable track arrangement (see
my other post).

Yeah, it's not gonna happen. So many other things will snaffle up the
funding.

BTN- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -