Cross London tickets on the underground
 

[x-posted to uk.transport.london]

On Aug 14, 6:03*pm, Tony Walsall wrote:
Does anyone know, will a cross London valid ticket open any Zone1
gate?

I believe that a rail ticket with cross-London validity included (i.e.
marked with the Maltese cross symbol) will only open gates at
Underground/DLR stations that are in the cross-London station list,
which is shown half-way down this page:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...ng_london.html

However it won't open any Zone 1 gate - though if you're in the system
and want to get out, then I understand you'll be let out without any
problems (in zone 1 at least), though the same ticket can't be used to
get back into the Underground system (i.e. there's no Break of Journey
allowed for the cross-London Underground leg of the journey).


On Monday I am travelling from Tame Bridge to Brighton and back to
Feltham. Cheapest way of doing this is a WSMR advance ticket from Tame
Bridge to Marylebone and then a CDR Feltham to Brighton.

Full marks to WSMR for selling single tickets for GBP13.40 with
railcard on a train that arrives in London just before 0900!

I have booked any permitted Feltham to Brighton tickets which have the
cross london symbol on, will these allow a single journey from
Marylebone to Victoria?

Yes, I believe in practice it'd allow for that journey no problems -
the LU gates will just see it as a cross-London transfer ticket, and
Marylebone to Victoria is of course a legit cross-London transfer.

Whether strictly speaking such usage is legit is another question -
one could argue that it's not, as you wouldn't be using the Tube as
part of a Feltham to Brighton journey - however I don't really think
LU cares too much about that at all, it'd just be another cross-London
journey in their eyes I reckon - and in practice the ticket would work
the gates whilst a ticket inspector would just see the cross symbol on
a valid ticket.

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On Aug 14, 6:03*pm, Tony Walsall wrote:
Does anyone know, will a cross London valid ticket open any Zone1
gate?

I believe that a rail ticket with cross-London validity included (i.e.
marked with the Maltese cross symbol) will only open gates at
Underground/DLR stations that are in the cross-London station list,
which is shown half-way down this page:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...ng_london.html

However it won't open any Zone 1 gate - though if you're in the system
and want to get out, then I understand you'll be let out without any
problems (in zone 1 at least), though the same ticket can't be used to
get back into the Underground system (i.e. there's no Break of Journey
allowed for the cross-London Underground leg of the journey).

The wording on the TfL web page is new to me:

"You can ‘break your transfer journey' and leave the Underground at any
intermediate station, e.g. if you travelling between Victoria and Euston
you can exit at Oxford Circus. However, if you subsequently wish to
continue your journey by Underground you will have to purchase another
ticket."

I've been refused exit at Goodge Street in the past (over 10 years ago) to
break a tube journey back to King's Cross and had to re-enter the tube and
exit at Euston instead. Is this a relatively recent change?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

On Aug 15, 12:21*am, wrote:

(Mizter T) wrote:

On Aug 14, 6:03*pm, Tony Walsall wrote:
Does anyone know, will a cross London valid ticket open any Zone1
gate?

I believe that a rail ticket with cross-London validity included (i.e.
marked with the Maltese cross symbol) will only open gates at
Underground/DLR stations that are in the cross-London station list,
which is shown half-way down this page:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...ng_london.html


However it won't open any Zone 1 gate - though if you're in the system
and want to get out, then I understand you'll be let out without any
problems (in zone 1 at least), though the same ticket can't be used to
get back into the Underground system (i.e. there's no Break of Journey
allowed for the cross-London Underground leg of the journey).

The wording on the TfL web page is new to me:

"You can ‘break your transfer journey' and leave the Underground at any
intermediate station, e.g. if you travelling between Victoria and Euston
you can exit at Oxford Circus. However, if you subsequently wish to
continue your journey by Underground you will have to purchase another
ticket."

I've been refused exit at Goodge Street in the past (over 10 years ago) to
break a tube journey back to King's Cross and had to re-enter the tube and
exit at Euston instead. Is this a relatively recent change?

I dunno - I do however recall recent-ish a discussion on this topic on
I think the District Dave forum in which a member of LU station staff
said that regardless of what the rules actually were - IIRC there
seemed to be of disagreement over them - in practice, someone with a
Maltese-cross-London ticket (if I may call it that) who wanted to exit
could do so, and no-one really seemed to demur of this opinion (though
this is obviously in contrast to your experience, but perhaps that
does reflect a rule change).

Given the somewhat arcane possibilities for cross-London journeys
presented by that station list, what with the 'out there' stations it
contains (e.g. Upminster, Amersham, Woolwich Arsenal), I don't think
I'd be mad keen to try this 'bail out early' idea in places that are a
bit distant from central London (as I can imagine staff being
unfamiliar with cross-London tickets and generally being a bit sus of
someone trying to misuse such a ticket), hence my comment about
perhaps only relying on it when in zone 1.

One last thing - the wording above is that given by 'National Rail'
aka ATOC - and it's perhaps not entirely impossible that this might
not fully reflect the reality of the contract ATOC has with LUL for
provision of this cross-London interchange facility...

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

wrote in message
...
In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On Aug 14, 6:03 pm, Tony Walsall wrote:
Does anyone know, will a cross London valid ticket open any Zone1
gate?

I believe that a rail ticket with cross-London validity included (i.e.
marked with the Maltese cross symbol) will only open gates at
Underground/DLR stations that are in the cross-London station list,
which is shown half-way down this page:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...ng_london.html

However it won't open any Zone 1 gate - though if you're in the system
and want to get out, then I understand you'll be let out without any
problems (in zone 1 at least), though the same ticket can't be used to
get back into the Underground system (i.e. there's no Break of Journey
allowed for the cross-London Underground leg of the journey).

The wording on the TfL web page is new to me:

"You can 'break your transfer journey' and leave the Underground at any
intermediate station, e.g. if you travelling between Victoria and Euston
you can exit at Oxford Circus. However, if you subsequently wish to
continue your journey by Underground you will have to purchase another
ticket."

I've been refused exit at Goodge Street in the past (over 10 years ago) to
break a tube journey back to King's Cross and had to re-enter the tube and
exit at Euston instead. Is this a relatively recent change?

No, the rule is not recent.

However the last time I looked they had removed it, so I'm surprised to see
it back again.

Having said that, I'm equally surprised that they wouldn't let you out at GS
for Euston (they don't have to know that you want KX). I had no problem
last time I did it.

tim

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

"tim...." wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...

I've been refused exit at Goodge Street in the past (over 10 years ago)
to
break a tube journey back to King's Cross and had to re-enter the tube
and
exit at Euston instead. Is this a relatively recent change?

No, the rule is not recent.

However the last time I looked they had removed it, so I'm surprised to
see it back again.

Having said that, I'm equally surprised that they wouldn't let you out at
GS for Euston (they don't have to know that you want KX). I had no
problem last time I did it.

Of course the barriers at GS wouldn't let you out - so that immediately puts
the member of staff into 'highly suspicious' mode. Add to that a typical
lack of knowledge, and you get to Colin's reported 'exit refusal'.

Paul S

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...


"tim...." wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...

I've been refused exit at Goodge Street in the past (over 10 years ago)
to
break a tube journey back to King's Cross and had to re-enter the tube
and
exit at Euston instead. Is this a relatively recent change?

No, the rule is not recent.

However the last time I looked they had removed it, so I'm surprised to
see it back again.

Having said that, I'm equally surprised that they wouldn't let you out at
GS for Euston (they don't have to know that you want KX). I had no
problem last time I did it.

Of course the barriers at GS wouldn't let you out

Agreed

I meant that I had no difficulty getting a staff member to let me out.

Except that now that you have abbreviated it I realised that I made a
mistake - I meant Warren Street

tim

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

"tim...." wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...

I've been refused exit at Goodge Street in the past (over 10 years
ago) to break a tube journey back to King's Cross and had to
re-enter the tube and exit at Euston instead. Is this a relatively
recent change?

No, the rule is not recent.

However the last time I looked they had removed it, so I'm
surprised to see it back again.

Having said that, I'm equally surprised that they wouldn't let
you out at GS for Euston (they don't have to know that you want
KX). I had no problem last time I did it.

Of course the barriers at GS wouldn't let you out - so that
immediately puts the member of staff into 'highly suspicious' mode.
Add to that a typical lack of knowledge, and you get to Colin's
reported 'exit refusal'.

The staff member was pretty adamant that i could only exit at one of the
listed stations.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

In article ,
(tim....) wrote:

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

"tim...." wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...

I've been refused exit at Goodge Street in the past (over 10 years
ago) to break a tube journey back to King's Cross and had to
re-enter the tube and exit at Euston instead. Is this a relatively
recent change?

No, the rule is not recent.

However the last time I looked they had removed it, so I'm surprised
to see it back again.

Having said that, I'm equally surprised that they wouldn't let you
out at GS for Euston (they don't have to know that you want KX). I
had no problem last time I did it.

Of course the barriers at GS wouldn't let you out

Agreed

I meant that I had no difficulty getting a staff member to let me out.

Except that now that you have abbreviated it I realised that I made
a mistake - I meant Warren Street

More jobsworths at Goodge Street?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

On 14/08/2010 18:28, Mizter T wrote:
However it won't open any Zone 1 gate - though if you're in the system
and want to get out, then I understand you'll be let out without any
problems (in zone 1 at least), though the same ticket can't be used to
get back into the Underground system (i.e. there's no Break of Journey
allowed for the cross-London Underground leg of the journey).

This is what I thought, but the chap on the gateline at Russell Square
tried to refuse me exit on a Manchester-Guildford ticket recently - he
said that a point-to-point NR ticket was only valid for LU transfer and
not to leave the station. I explained that I was allowed to leave the
station but that I wouldn't be able to get back in, but he insisted that
I needed to buy a new ticket. I asked to talk to someone from the ticket
office (which was closed), so he went and spoke to a nearby Revenue
officer and came back saying that it was "a grey area" and he'd let me
out this time but only because the ticket office was closed. Hmph.

I have booked any permitted Feltham to Brighton tickets which have the
cross london symbol on, will these allow a single journey from
Marylebone to Victoria?

Yes, I believe in practice it'd allow for that journey no problems -
the LU gates will just see it as a cross-London transfer ticket, and
Marylebone to Victoria is of course a legit cross-London transfer.

Indeed - I forgot about the free transfer on the other half of that
ticket (Guildford-Manchester) and later used it to do Liverpool Street
to Euston without incident.

--
Josie
Reverse 'liar' to e-mail me.

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

Whether strictly speaking such usage is legit is another question -
one could argue that it's not, as you wouldn't be using the Tube as
part of a Feltham to Brighton journey - however I don't really think
LU cares too much about that at all, it'd just be another cross-London
journey in their eyes I reckon - and in practice the ticket would work
the gates whilst a ticket inspector would just see the cross symbol on
a valid ticket.

Surely Feltham to Brighton is a bad example or are there two fares, via
Clapham Junction and via London Terminals for that journey?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

On Aug 22, 1:21*am, Josie wrote:
On 14/08/2010 18:28, Mizter T wrote:

However it won't open any Zone 1 gate - though if you're in the system
and want to get out, then I understand you'll be let out without any
problems (in zone 1 at least), though the same ticket can't be used to
get back into the Underground system (i.e. there's no Break of Journey
allowed for the cross-London Underground leg of the journey).

This is what I thought, but the chap on the gateline at Russell Square
tried to refuse me exit on a Manchester-Guildford ticket recently - he
said that a point-to-point NR ticket was only valid for LU transfer and
not to leave the station. I explained that I was allowed to leave the
station but that I wouldn't be able to get back in, but he insisted that
I needed to buy a new ticket. I asked to talk to someone from the ticket
office (which was closed), so he went and spoke to a nearby Revenue
officer and came back saying that it was "a grey area" and he'd let me
out this time but only because the ticket office was closed. Hmph.


The National Rail website clearly states that the tickets can only be
used at the stations in the list he

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...elling_connect

So technically a through National Rail ticket isn't valid at Russell
Square. Whether you get let through the barriers, other than at these
'cross-London' stations, is more a matter of luck than right.

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

On 22/08/2010 13:21, Andy wrote:
On Aug 22, 1:21 am, wrote:
On 14/08/2010 18:28, Mizter T wrote:

However it won't open any Zone 1 gate - though if you're in the system
and want to get out, then I understand you'll be let out without any
problems (in zone 1 at least), though the same ticket can't be used to
get back into the Underground system (i.e. there's no Break of Journey
allowed for the cross-London Underground leg of the journey).

This is what I thought, but the chap on the gateline at Russell Square
tried to refuse me exit on a Manchester-Guildford ticket recently - he
said that a point-to-point NR ticket was only valid for LU transfer and
not to leave the station. I explained that I was allowed to leave the
station but that I wouldn't be able to get back in, but he insisted that
I needed to buy a new ticket. I asked to talk to someone from the ticket
office (which was closed), so he went and spoke to a nearby Revenue
officer and came back saying that it was "a grey area" and he'd let me
out this time but only because the ticket office was closed. Hmph.


The National Rail website clearly states that the tickets can only be
used at the stations in the list he

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...elling_connect

So technically a through National Rail ticket isn't valid at Russell
Square. Whether you get let through the barriers, other than at these
'cross-London' stations, is more a matter of luck than right.

From that website:

"You can ‘break your transfer journey' and leave the Underground at any
intermediate station, e.g. if you travelling between Victoria and Euston
you can exit at Oxford Circus. However, if you subsequently wish to
continue your journey by Underground you will have to purchase another
ticket."

--
Josie
Reverse 'liar' to e-mail me.

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

"Andy" wrote in message
...

The National Rail website clearly states that the tickets can only be
used at the stations in the list he

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...elling_connect

So technically a through National Rail ticket isn't valid at Russell
Square. Whether you get let through the barriers, other than at these
'cross-London' stations, is more a matter of luck than right.

Presumably you didn't read the whole section that you linked to then...

Paul S

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

On Aug 22, 1:24*pm, Josie wrote:
On 22/08/2010 13:21, Andy wrote:





On Aug 22, 1:21 am, *wrote:
On 14/08/2010 18:28, Mizter T wrote:

However it won't open any Zone 1 gate - though if you're in the system
and want to get out, then I understand you'll be let out without any
problems (in zone 1 at least), though the same ticket can't be used to
get back into the Underground system (i.e. there's no Break of Journey
allowed for the cross-London Underground leg of the journey).

This is what I thought, but the chap on the gateline at Russell Square
tried to refuse me exit on a Manchester-Guildford ticket recently - he
said that a point-to-point NR ticket was only valid for LU transfer and
not to leave the station. I explained that I was allowed to leave the
station but that I wouldn't be able to get back in, but he insisted that
I needed to buy a new ticket. I asked to talk to someone from the ticket
office (which was closed), so he went and spoke to a nearby Revenue
officer and came back saying that it was "a grey area" and he'd let me
out this time but only because the ticket office was closed. Hmph.

The National Rail website clearly states that the tickets can only be
used at the stations in the list he

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...crossing_londo...

So technically a through National Rail ticket isn't valid at Russell
Square. Whether you get let through the barriers, other than at these
'cross-London' stations, is more a matter of luck than right.

*From that website:

"You can ‘break your transfer journey' and leave the Underground at any
intermediate station, e.g. if you travelling between Victoria and Euston
you can exit at Oxford Circus. However, if you subsequently wish to
continue your journey by Underground you will have to purchase another
ticket."


I missed that bit, but when did that change to the rules come in? The
cross-London component of the fare is less than the normal LU single
and there is no statement about these tickets in the TfL conditions of
carriage. The national rail conditions of carriage (http://
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system...misc/NRCOC.pdf,
condition 16) state that break of journey isn't allowed on LU
(although the wording is, as always, a bit ambiguous only talking
about entitlement to break and resume a journey not exit and buy a new
ticket).

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

On Aug 22, 1:30*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Andy" wrote in message

...

The National Rail website clearly states that the tickets can only be
used at the stations in the list he

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...crossing_londo...

So technically a through National Rail ticket isn't valid at Russell
Square. Whether you get let through the barriers, other than at these
'cross-London' stations, is more a matter of luck than right.

Presumably you didn't read the whole section that you linked to then...


I took a short cut, rather than checking the Conditions of Carriage.
There is no mention of this entitlement anywhere except the part of
the National Rail website I linked to. It never used to be the case
that such tickets were valid at intermediate stations (which is why
they don't open the gates).

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

On 22/08/2010 13:43, Andy wrote:
From that website:

"You can ‘break your transfer journey' and leave the Underground at any
intermediate station, e.g. if you travelling between Victoria and Euston
you can exit at Oxford Circus. However, if you subsequently wish to
continue your journey by Underground you will have to purchase another
ticket."


I missed that bit, but when did that change to the rules come in? The
cross-London component of the fare is less than the normal LU single
and there is no statement about these tickets in the TfL conditions of
carriage. The national rail conditions of carriage (http://
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system...misc/NRCOC.pdf,
condition 16) state that break of journey isn't allowed on LU
(although the wording is, as always, a bit ambiguous only talking
about entitlement to break and resume a journey not exit and buy a new
ticket).

*shrug* Don't know, but I've certainly read about it on these here
newsgroups in the past. I've also put it into practice as well - showed
my ticket to a member of staff at Holborn about 18 months ago, who
cheerfully asked, "You're breaking your journey, yes?" and then opened
the gate for me.

--
Josie
Reverse 'liar' to e-mail me.

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Aug 22, 1:30 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Andy" wrote in message

...

The National Rail website clearly states that the tickets can only be
used at the stations in the list he

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...crossing_londo...

So technically a through National Rail ticket isn't valid at Russell
Square. Whether you get let through the barriers, other than at these
'cross-London' stations, is more a matter of luck than right.

Presumably you didn't read the whole section that you linked to then...

I took a short cut, rather than checking the Conditions of Carriage.
There is no mention of this entitlement anywhere except the part of
the National Rail website I linked to. It never used to be the case
that such tickets were valid at intermediate stations (which is why
they don't open the gates).

This limitation of the gates had already been discussed in earlier parts of
the thread [that unfortunately only appeared in uk.transport.london]

Paul S

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

On Aug 22, 2:07*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Andy" wrote in message

...





On Aug 22, 1:30 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Andy" wrote in message

....

The National Rail website clearly states that the tickets can only be
used at the stations in the list he

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...crossing_londo....

So technically a through National Rail ticket isn't valid at Russell
Square. Whether you get let through the barriers, other than at these
'cross-London' stations, is more a matter of luck than right.

Presumably you didn't read the whole section that you linked to then....

I took a short cut, rather than checking the Conditions of Carriage.
There is no mention of this entitlement anywhere except the part of
the National Rail website I linked to. It never used to be the case
that such tickets were valid at intermediate stations (which is why
they don't open the gates).

This limitation of the gates had already been discussed in earlier parts of
the thread [that unfortunately only appeared in uk.transport.london]


I'm surprised that TfL accepted such a change, as they get limited
revenue from the cross-London tickets, compared to the two full fare
singles which used to be needed.

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

On 22 Aug, 15:01, Andy wrote:
On Aug 22, 2:07*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:





"Andy" wrote in message

....

On Aug 22, 1:30 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Andy" wrote in message

...

The National Rail website clearly states that the tickets can only be
used at the stations in the list he

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...crossing_londo...

So technically a through National Rail ticket isn't valid at Russell
Square. Whether you get let through the barriers, other than at these
'cross-London' stations, is more a matter of luck than right.

Presumably you didn't read the whole section that you linked to then....

I took a short cut, rather than checking the Conditions of Carriage.
There is no mention of this entitlement anywhere except the part of
the National Rail website I linked to. It never used to be the case
that such tickets were valid at intermediate stations (which is why
they don't open the gates).

This limitation of the gates had already been discussed in earlier parts of
the thread [that unfortunately only appeared in uk.transport.london]

I'm surprised that TfL accepted such a change, as they get limited
revenue from the cross-London tickets, compared to the two full fare
singles which used to be needed.

Indeed it used to be free. I've mentioned before how many years ago
you could travel from, say, Kings Cross to somewhere in South London
for the same price as from Cannon Street etc as long as you got the
ticket from the NR ticket office at Kings Cross. Worked all the
barriers and everything, but LU was free.

Cross London tickets on the underground
 

On Aug 22, 7:21*pm, MIG wrote:
On 22 Aug, 15:01, Andy wrote:





On Aug 22, 2:07*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

"Andy" wrote in message

....

On Aug 22, 1:30 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Andy" wrote in message

...

The National Rail website clearly states that the tickets can only be
used at the stations in the list he

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...crossing_londo...

So technically a through National Rail ticket isn't valid at Russell
Square. Whether you get let through the barriers, other than at these
'cross-London' stations, is more a matter of luck than right.

Presumably you didn't read the whole section that you linked to then...

I took a short cut, rather than checking the Conditions of Carriage..
There is no mention of this entitlement anywhere except the part of
the National Rail website I linked to. It never used to be the case
that such tickets were valid at intermediate stations (which is why
they don't open the gates).

This limitation of the gates had already been discussed in earlier parts of
the thread [that unfortunately only appeared in uk.transport.london]

I'm surprised that TfL accepted such a change, as they get limited
revenue from the cross-London tickets, compared to the two full fare
singles which used to be needed.

Indeed it used to be free. *I've mentioned before how many years ago
you could travel from, say, Kings Cross to somewhere in South London
for the same price as from Cannon Street etc as long as you got the
ticket from the NR ticket office at Kings Cross. *Worked all the
barriers and everything, but LU was free.

Well, LU wouldn't have been free, more than LU would have got a share
of the fare from King's Cross but maybe not from Cannon Street. Of
course, the passenger wouldn't have noticed the difference.