I'm in the tunnel
 

On 24/09/10 21:03, tony sayer wrote:

I thought that GSM was well encrypted as it was?..

I think you should assume that most of the crypto in GSM has been broken
to a greater or lesser degree. Remember that:

(1) GSM is really quite old now, and

(2) there were political reasons to limit the strength of the crypto

I'm pretty sure that real time cryptanalysis of an GSM call was
demonstrated at one of the hacker conferences quite a number of years ago.

-roy

I'm in the tunnel
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Steve Terry
scribeth thus
"Rupert Moss-Eccardt" wrote in message
...
Steve Terry wrote:
"Rupert wrote in message
...
Steve Terry wrote:
"tony wrote in message
...
In , Steve Terry
scribeth thus
"Roy wrote in message
...
On 22 Sep, 11:55, wrote:
"Roy wrote in message



On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote:
snip

Tetra is a badly conceived and applied standard that should never have
existed and only does because of the vast amounts of money and
bureaucracy dedicated to it.

But quite why?..


Clearly Politics, the Home Office wanted a system that was entirely
independent of publicly available networks.
No matter how badly conceived or developed, with no limit on cost.
With whatever the disadvantage to the public, or even creating unknown
health issues.
(What **** thought it a good idea to multiplex Tetra at only 17.6Hz?!
a frequency known to cause visual epilepsy )

Not having a entirely independent system not being something that
worried the Scandinavians meant they got a very practical digital system,
(900MHz GSM Pro) years earlier for about one hundredth the price of Tetra.

GSM Pro of course offers closed secure PTT groups and normal
international phone calls, to all emergency services and commercial users.

In the USA PTT over cellular is fast becoming popular for closed
commercial and emergency services groups.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_to_talk
(Maybe cos Tetra with its vested interests doesn't exist there?)

Only Orange offered a hardly advertised PTT over GSM here,
and that was only to business users, such limited offering was
destined to fail.

Why almost non existent offerings from the UK GSM networks?
IMHO it must have been Gov pressure not to affect Tetra
and Dolphin sales and the vast army of bureaucrats it supports

Steve Terry
--
"I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena
without having guns pointed at me.
I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it."
- Wilhelm Reich, November 1947

I'm in the tunnel
 

"Roy Badami" wrote in message
...
On 24/09/10 21:03, tony sayer wrote:

I thought that GSM was well encrypted as it was?..

I think you should assume that most of the crypto in GSM has been broken
to a greater or lesser degree. Remember that:

(1) GSM is really quite old now, and

(2) there were political reasons to limit the strength of the crypto

I'm pretty sure that real time cryptanalysis of an GSM call was
demonstrated at one of the hacker conferences quite a number of years ago.
-roy

Maybe that's why extra levels of encryption are available for GSM Pro
handsets

Although if you are going to go to all that trouble to crack police comms
you might as well just bug your police station and cars.

Steve Terry
--
"I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena
without having guns pointed at me.
I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it."
- Wilhelm Reich, November 1947

I'm in the tunnel
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Steve Terry
scribeth thus
"Rupert Moss-Eccardt" wrote in message
...
Steve Terry wrote:
"tony wrote in message
...
In , Steve Terry
scribeth thus
"Roy wrote in message
...
On 22 Sep, 11:55, wrote:
"Roy wrote in message



On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote:
snip
Trower report:
http://www.tetrawatch.net/papers/trower_report.pdf

Some really good science there eh;?....
snip

Yes it's very suspect science, but there is little doubt that unnecessarily
multiplexing at 17.6Hz could have been a completely avoidable health risk

In 2000 whist visiting Sweden i spoke to police officers about
their new GSM Pro personal radios (at the time using waterproof
Ericsson R250s) and they were very satisfied with them.
(retail price for Ericsson R250s at the time was around £100 each)
http://www.gsmarena.com/ericsson_r250s_pro-119.php

These 450 MHz versions?. With PPT I presume?..


900MHz on existing public GSM networks with high priority GSM Pro sims
With closed group PTT

Also if required additional encryption can be added to each phone.

I thought that GSM was well encrypted as it was?..

Debatable


We of course years later had to reinvent the wheel, at the cost of
billions
to the public for the benefit of private companies, and to the detriment
of the public allowing them to share an improved GSM network.

Are you suggesting that the public shared a security network?..
Tony Sayer


Why not, it works for them, and if you think about it, most UK police
personal comms has for years already been over officers personal
GSM phones on the public network, especially still in Tetra poor
signal black spot areas.

The added advantage to Scandinavian public, is that areas where
emergency services have poor GSM signal get priority for additional
cells to strengthen the existing network, so everyone wins.

In the early days of Tetra if it wasn't for officers being able to
fall back on their GSM phones, Tetra's many black spot areas,
would have made it fail.

Also some UK police services have been using Blackberrys over
public GSM networks for collating data.
No one has questioned any security issues about police using the
public networks

The one thing that has worried me about officers unbridled use of
GSM phones is that where their PRs calls are recorded for
evidential later use, of course their phones aren't.

Steve Terry
--
"I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena
without having guns pointed at me.
I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it."
- Wilhelm Reich, November 1947

I'm in the tunnel
 

On 22/09/2010 11:24, Recliner wrote:
Bad news -- it looks like mobile phones may work on the Tube after all,
according to that ever accurate source, the Evening Standard. So no more
cutting off of noisy phone callers as the train enters the tunnel.

There are parts of the Tube, normally near ventilation shafts, where you
can get a clear line of sight and thus a respectable signal.

I believe that Arsenal is one of them.

I'm in the tunnel
 

On 24/09/2010 00:40, Steve Terry wrote:

GSM could, GSM is now possible on airliners using cells on the aircraft
linked up to satellite or down to ground stations, and GSM is regularly
used on sea going Ferries using similar systems.

I understand that Ryanair is getting ready to use GSM on its aircraft soon.

AIUI, ferries to France and Spain out of Portsmouth have them I doubt
that they are necessary on Dover-Calais, considering that one's mobile
can already start picking up French signals on the English side.

I'm in the tunnel
 

On 22/09/2010 20:33, Neil Williams wrote:
On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:24:29 +0100, "Recliner"
wrote:

It would mean Tube passengers could stay in mobile range throughout
their journey, a move which could boost the capital's economy, although
there would almost certainly be some quiet carriages on Underground
trains where phones were banned.

Even better idea - how about making it data-only? Texting and use of
the Internet is not disruptive. Phone calls on a crowded Tube train
would be unpleasant.

Same with planes, really.

Neil
Isn't that the plan on aeroplanes, however? No voice, only text messages.

I'm in the tunnel
 

Steve Terry wrote:
"tony wrote in message
...
In , Steve Terry
scribeth thus
"Rupert wrote in message
...
Steve Terry wrote:
"Rupert wrote in message
...
Steve Terry wrote:
"tony wrote in message
...
In , Steve Terry
scribeth thus
"Roy wrote in message
...
On 22 Sep, 11:55, wrote:
"Roy wrote in message



On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote:
snip

Tetra is a badly conceived and applied standard that should never have
existed and only does because of the vast amounts of money and
bureaucracy dedicated to it.

But quite why?..


Clearly Politics, the Home Office wanted a system that was entirely
independent of publicly available networks.
No matter how badly conceived or developed, with no limit on cost.
With whatever the disadvantage to the public, or even creating unknown
health issues.
(What **** thought it a good idea to multiplex Tetra at only 17.6Hz?!
a frequency known to cause visual epilepsy )

Your first incorrect assumption was that the Home Office had any real
input into Tetra. Wrong department. Try again.

Not having a entirely independent system not being something that
worried the Scandinavians meant they got a very practical digital system,
(900MHz GSM Pro) years earlier for about one hundredth the price of Tetra.

When do you think GSM Pro became a "standard". When do you think Tetra did?

GSM Pro of course offers closed secure PTT groups and normal
international phone calls, to all emergency services and commercial users.

In the USA PTT over cellular is fast becoming popular for closed
commercial and emergency services groups.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_to_talk
(Maybe cos Tetra with its vested interests doesn't exist there?)

There are still issues. Perhaps you should read stuff around the DHS
problems with there not being a single standard for all agencies.

Only Orange offered a hardly advertised PTT over GSM here,
and that was only to business users, such limited offering was
destined to fail.

Why almost non existent offerings from the UK GSM networks?
IMHO it must have been Gov pressure not to affect Tetra
and Dolphin sales and the vast army of bureaucrats it supports


The PTT over GSM has well-known shortcomings. Call setup time is too
long, talk groups are too small. But please don't let facts get in the
way of a good rant.

Rather than parading your ignorance repeatedly, why not look some stuff
up and make a reasoned argument?

I'm in the tunnel
 

Roy Badami wrote:
On 24/09/10 21:03, tony sayer wrote:

I thought that GSM was well encrypted as it was?..

I think you should assume that most of the crypto in GSM has been broken
to a greater or lesser degree. Remember that:

(1) GSM is really quite old now, and

(2) there were political reasons to limit the strength of the crypto

I'm pretty sure that real time cryptanalysis of an GSM call was
demonstrated at one of the hacker conferences quite a number of years ago.

More importantly there have been off-the-shelf devices available from a
number of suppliers for many years that, even in 2003 were only about £50k.

And, of course, back haul is also vulnerable.

I'm in the tunnel
 

Steve Terry wrote:
[SNIP]


We of course years later had to reinvent the wheel, at the cost of
billions
to the public for the benefit of private companies, and to the detriment
of the public allowing them to share an improved GSM network.

Are you suggesting that the public shared a security network?..
Tony Sayer


Why not, it works for them, and if you think about it, most UK police
personal comms has for years already been over officers personal
GSM phones on the public network, especially still in Tetra poor
signal black spot areas.

You are missing the point about Tetra that you can use it in DMO mode
anywhere, which is of major benefit for the other emergency services and
can use terminals to backhaul to your PSTN gateway if you wanted to.

In the early days of Tetra if it wasn't for officers being able to
fall back on their GSM phones, Tetra's many black spot areas,
would have made it fail.

Quite the opposite for the user groups I'm most familiar with.

Also some UK police services have been using Blackberrys over
public GSM networks for collating data.
No one has questioned any security issues about police using the
public networks

Yes, they have. For what might be termed 'retail' policing, Blackberrys
(with the encryption they provide, which has been in the news recently)
are approved. For some other applications, BBs are not approved.

The one thing that has worried me about officers unbridled use of
GSM phones is that where their PRs calls are recorded for
evidential later use, of course their phones aren't.

There are solutions offered by some MNOs that do record the calls even
on GSM.

I'm in the tunnel
 

Tetra is a badly conceived and applied standard that should never have
existed and only does because of the vast amounts of money and
bureaucracy dedicated to it.

But quite why?..


Clearly Politics, the Home Office wanted a system that was entirely
independent of publicly available networks.

Thats not a bad reason at all. I've seen the public mobile nets jam up
rather badly over the years and fail 'tho not that often..

No matter how badly conceived or developed, with no limit on cost.
With whatever the disadvantage to the public, or even creating unknown
health issues.
(What **** thought it a good idea to multiplex Tetra at only 17.6Hz?!
a frequency known to cause visual epilepsy )

Yes, and has it or does it?..


Not having a entirely independent system not being something that
worried the Scandinavians meant they got a very practical digital system,
(900MHz GSM Pro) years earlier for about one hundredth the price of Tetra.

GSM Pro of course offers closed secure PTT groups and normal
international phone calls, to all emergency services and commercial users.

In the USA PTT over cellular is fast becoming popular for closed
commercial and emergency services groups.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_to_talk
(Maybe cos Tetra with its vested interests doesn't exist there?)


It doesn't seem to be used much or at all in the UK. I believe that its
problematical..

Only Orange offered a hardly advertised PTT over GSM here,
and that was only to business users, such limited offering was
destined to fail.

Why almost non existent offerings from the UK GSM networks?
IMHO it must have been Gov pressure not to affect Tetra
and Dolphin sales and the vast army of bureaucrats it supports


Are there really a vast number that supports it?, last I heard there
weren't that many working on it anyway!..
Steve Terry

--
Tony Sayer

I'm in the tunnel
 

In article , Roy Badami
scribeth thus
On 24/09/10 21:03, tony sayer wrote:

I thought that GSM was well encrypted as it was?..

I think you should assume that most of the crypto in GSM has been broken
to a greater or lesser degree. Remember that:

(1) GSM is really quite old now, and

(2) there were political reasons to limit the strength of the crypto

I'm pretty sure that real time cryptanalysis of an GSM call was
demonstrated at one of the hacker conferences quite a number of years ago.

-roy


Well if you have ever listened to Police traffic theres not a lot of it
thats likely to give any villains any advantages and in most cases its
lost its value after a short period of time anyway and where are the
devices that are generally available for interception anyway?.

You'd need something a sight more sophisticated than a hand held
scanner;!...
--
Tony Sayer

I'm in the tunnel
 

In article , Steve Terry
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Steve Terry
scribeth thus
"Rupert Moss-Eccardt" wrote in message
...
Steve Terry wrote:
"tony wrote in message
...
In , Steve Terry
scribeth thus
"Roy wrote in message
...
On 22 Sep, 11:55, wrote:
"Roy wrote in message



On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote:
snip
Trower report:
http://www.tetrawatch.net/papers/trower_report.pdf

Some really good science there eh;?....
snip

Yes it's very suspect science, but there is little doubt that unnecessarily
multiplexing at 17.6Hz could have been a completely avoidable health risk

In 2000 whist visiting Sweden i spoke to police officers about
their new GSM Pro personal radios (at the time using waterproof
Ericsson R250s) and they were very satisfied with them.
(retail price for Ericsson R250s at the time was around £100 each)
http://www.gsmarena.com/ericsson_r250s_pro-119.php

These 450 MHz versions?. With PPT I presume?..


900MHz on existing public GSM networks with high priority GSM Pro sims
With closed group PTT

Yes that doesn't seem that clever from what I hear..

And they don't want to rely on public nets either..

Also if required additional encryption can be added to each phone.

I thought that GSM was well encrypted as it was?..

Debatable

Sufficient for practical purposes..



We of course years later had to reinvent the wheel, at the cost of
billions
to the public for the benefit of private companies, and to the detriment
of the public allowing them to share an improved GSM network.

Are you suggesting that the public shared a security network?..
Tony Sayer


Why not, it works for them, and if you think about it, most UK police
personal comms has for years already been over officers personal
GSM phones on the public network, especially still in Tetra poor
signal black spot areas.

And of course mobile phones don't have any then;?..


The added advantage to Scandinavian public, is that areas where
emergency services have poor GSM signal get priority for additional
cells to strengthen the existing network, so everyone wins.

In the early days of Tetra if it wasn't for officers being able to
fall back on their GSM phones, Tetra's many black spot areas,
would have made it fail.

Come on, there are many and still are several areas where GSM is ****
poor..


Also some UK police services have been using Blackberrys over
public GSM networks for collating data.
No one has questioned any security issues about police using the
public networks

The one thing that has worried me about officers unbridled use of
GSM phones is that where their PRs calls are recorded for
evidential later use, of course their phones aren't.

Perhaps that a good thing from the bobbies POV;!..

Steve Terry

--
Tony Sayer

I'm in the tunnel
 

On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 12:33:30PM +0100, Rupert Moss-Eccardt wrote:
Steve Terry wrote:
Well done. How about the actual operational needs.
To pick a simple example. Tetra works on the TGV, GSM doesn't
Translation: Steve Terry doesn't understand the issues. Think why I
chose TGV especially, rather than another line. Umm. Perhaps it is to
do with the speed of the handset relative to the basestation.

I've used GSM on a TGV, for both voice and data. And no, it wasn't
stopped, it was zooming along at eleventy squillion miles an hour
between Paris and Strasbourg.

--
David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire

Seven o'clock in the morning is something that
happens to those less fortunate than me

I'm in the tunnel
 

"Phil W Lee" wrote in message
...
tony sayer considered Sun, 26 Sep 2010 22:16:53
+0100 the perfect time to write:

In article , Steve Terry
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Steve Terry
scribeth thus
"Rupert Moss-Eccardt" wrote in message
...
Steve Terry wrote:
"tony wrote in message
...
In , Steve Terry
scribeth thus
"Roy wrote in message
...
On 22 Sep, 11:55, wrote:
"Roy wrote in message



On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote:
snip
In the early days of Tetra if it wasn't for officers being able to
fall back on their GSM phones, Tetra's many black spot areas,
would have made it fail.

Come on, there are many and still are several areas where GSM is ****
poor..

See first point above :)
There probably wouldn't be nearly as many poor GSM areas if a tiny
fraction of the considerable sums spent on TETRA had been spent on
filling in GSM holes.


Clearly there are two distinct points of view, one that stifled cellular PTT
offers cheap and practical closed group comms for the benefit of all users,
and two those with a vested interest in perpetrating the vast bureaucracy
and £Billion budgets of Tetra that didn't exist ten years ago, and are
looking forward to a replay with even bigger budgets and careers
to be made with the future planned Tetra 2.

Meanwhile on the streets, emergency services will continue to fall back
on their mobile phones for calls, and Blackberrys for correlating data.

and with PTT apps appearing on the latest generation of Android phones
no doubt emergency services will find new uses for them too.

Steve Terry
--
"I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena
without having guns pointed at me.
I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it."
- Wilhelm Reich, November 1947

I'm in the tunnel
 

Phil W Lee wrote:
[snip]
Surely the cost of filling in the GSM blackspots would have been far
less than the cost of creating an entire additional network.
It would have also had the benefit of providing a massive PR boost as
ordinary users would get the benefit of any spare bandwidth.

Err, not really. One of the important things about Tetra is that, in
the event of being out of coverage (indoors or out) you can still do
handset to handset calls. This is particularly useful on a fireground
and also in remote locations. In the latter case you can use handsets
to relay back to the national network so can provide coverage 'on the
fly' which can also involve an aerial platform.

GSM and Tetra had very different design goals and does mean that they
are best at different things. Tetra is designed to provide PTT to large
"talk groups" (possibly hundreds of people) in a small location. GSM
can't do that, for example. On the other hand, Tetra isn't very good at
providing micro, pico and femto cells when you want to have loads of
people in coverage in a dense urban area. And so it goes.

I'm in the tunnel
 

Steve Terry wrote:

Clearly there are two distinct points of view, one that stifled cellular PTT
offers cheap and practical closed group comms for the benefit of all users,
and two those with a vested interest in perpetrating the vast bureaucracy
and £Billion budgets of Tetra that didn't exist ten years ago, and are
looking forward to a replay with even bigger budgets and careers
to be made with the future planned Tetra 2.

GSM can't do the sort of PTT that is required by the emergency services.
I suppose you could design something on top but it wouldn't really be
GSM anymore. One of the fundamental problems is the fact that GSM takes
a while for call set up.

Meanwhile on the streets, emergency services will continue to fall back
on their mobile phones for calls, and Blackberrys for correlating data.

It is true that reactive police typically carry and use GSM handsets and
Blackberrys but that is only one of many different emergency services or
even functions within the police.

I'm in the tunnel
 

"Rupert Moss-Eccardt" wrote in message
...
Steve Terry wrote:

Clearly there are two distinct points of view, one that stifled cellular
PTT
offers cheap and practical closed group comms for the benefit of all
users,
and two those with a vested interest in perpetrating the vast bureaucracy
and £Billion budgets of Tetra that didn't exist ten years ago, and are
looking forward to a replay with even bigger budgets and careers
to be made with the future planned Tetra 2.

GSM can't do the sort of PTT that is required by the emergency services.
I suppose you could design something on top but it wouldn't really be
GSM anymore. One of the fundamental problems is the fact that GSM
takes a while for call set up.


I believe Orange's PTT ran over GPRS data which is left running
near enough continuously.

Skype on Three i leave running continuously whilst minimised,
sometimes for weeks on end.

Steve Terry
--
"I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena
without having guns pointed at me.
I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it."
- Wilhelm Reich, November 1947

I'm in the tunnel
 

Is it possible to hear London Underground radio transmissions on a
regular scanner now?

I'm in the tunnel
 

On Wed, 29 Sep 2010, Steve Terry wrote:

"Rupert Moss-Eccardt" wrote in message
...
Steve Terry wrote:

Clearly there are two distinct points of view, one that stifled
cellular PTT offers cheap and practical closed group comms for the
benefit of all users, and two those with a vested interest in
perpetrating the vast bureaucracy and ?Billion budgets of Tetra that
didn't exist ten years ago, and are looking forward to a replay with
even bigger budgets and careers to be made with the future planned
Tetra 2.

GSM can't do the sort of PTT that is required by the emergency
services. I suppose you could design something on top but it wouldn't
really be GSM anymore. One of the fundamental problems is the fact
that GSM takes a while for call set up.

I believe Orange's PTT ran over GPRS data which is left running
near enough continuously.

Skype on Three i leave running continuously whilst minimised, sometimes
for weeks on end.

Presumably, providing universal 3G coverage to the emergency services
would be an entirely different kettle of fish. Very expensive fish.

tom

--
Mpreg is short for Male Impregnation and I cannot get enough. -- D

I'm in the tunnel
 

On 25 Sep, 09:46, "
wrote:
On 24/09/2010 00:40, Steve Terry wrote:

GSM could, GSM is now possible on airliners using cells on the aircraft
linked up to satellite or down to ground stations, and GSM is regularly
used on sea going Ferries using similar systems.

I understand that Ryanair is getting ready to use GSM on its aircraft soon.

AIUI, ferries to France and Spain out of Portsmouth have them I doubt
that they are necessary on Dover-Calais, considering that one's mobile
can already start picking up French signals on the English side.

Ryanair had mobile phone use on some of its aircraft for some time,
first announced about 4 years ago, though it took a bit longer to
actually introduce than originally suggested; it was working from
early last year on 20 aircraft

However, the arrangement with OnAir was ended by mutual agreement
earlier this year, without either giving reasons in public; presumably
Ryanair are looking for a new partner more likely to accept their
terms.

Ferry and cruise ship use has also existed for several years. Although
the rates on ships and aircraft are typically in the same sort of
range as satellite phones, there was a time when some roaming SIMs had
free incoming calls on some of these, but I rather doubt that's still
the case.

Dover-Calais, even inside the restaurant, there's always some coverage
by UK or French networks on the passenger decks. Outside on top, it's
usually though not always possible to select one's UK network from
just outside Calais

I'm in the tunnel
 

In article , Steve Terry
scribeth thus

"Phil W Lee" wrote in message
.. .
tony sayer considered Sun, 26 Sep 2010 22:16:53
+0100 the perfect time to write:

In article , Steve Terry
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Steve Terry
scribeth thus
"Rupert Moss-Eccardt" wrote in message
.. .
Steve Terry wrote:
"tony wrote in message
...
In , Steve Terry
scribeth thus
"Roy wrote in message

...
On 22 Sep, 11:55, wrote:
"Roy wrote in message



On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote:
snip
In the early days of Tetra if it wasn't for officers being able to
fall back on their GSM phones, Tetra's many black spot areas,
would have made it fail.

Come on, there are many and still are several areas where GSM is ****
poor..

See first point above :)
There probably wouldn't be nearly as many poor GSM areas if a tiny
fraction of the considerable sums spent on TETRA had been spent on
filling in GSM holes.


Clearly there are two distinct points of view, one that stifled cellular PTT
offers cheap and practical closed group comms for the benefit of all users,
and two those with a vested interest in perpetrating the vast bureaucracy
and £Billion budgets of Tetra that didn't exist ten years ago, and are
looking forward to a replay with even bigger budgets and careers
to be made with the future planned Tetra 2.

Meanwhile on the streets, emergency services will continue to fall back
on their mobile phones for calls, and Blackberrys for correlating data.


I asked a policeman I know re this the other day and the Airwave works
fine and yes, he sometimes uses his mobile but for different reasons..


and with PTT apps appearing on the latest generation of Android phones
no doubt emergency services will find new uses for them too.

Steve Terry

--
Tony Sayer

I'm in the tunnel
 

In article
s.com, Mizter T scribeth thus

On Sep 29, 11:59*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:

On Wed, 29 Sep 2010, Steve Terry wrote:

"Rupert Moss-Eccardt" wrote:

I believe Orange's PTT ran over GPRS data which is left running
near enough continuously.

Skype on Three i leave running continuously whilst minimised, sometimes
for weeks on end.

Presumably, providing universal 3G coverage to the emergency services
would be an entirely different kettle of fish. Very expensive fish.

Depends how it's implemented. One could suggest ditching TETRA and
running emergency service comms over Skype on Three, and perhaps such
a 'self-evident saving' might even taken seriously by an aspirant,
desperate to be noticed wonk in a right-leaning think-tank eager to
earn their spending-cut spurs...

Well if they keep getting rid of the Bobbies on the beat then that might
come about;(..
--
Tony Sayer

I'm in the tunnel
 

On Sep 30, 2:46*pm, andy wrote:
[snip]
Dover-Calais, even inside the restaurant, there's always some coverage
by UK or French networks on the passenger decks. Outside on top, it's
usually though not always possible to select one's UK network from
just outside Calais

You can pick up the French networks when walking along the cliffs near
Dover.

I'm in the tunnel
 

On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 06:46:44 -0700 (PDT)
andy wrote:
Ferry and cruise ship use has also existed for several years. Although

Indeed they have. But they don't always work. On Britanny Ferries which I've
used quite often you always get a base station strong signal but they seem to
frequently lose their ship to shore link so you can't actually make or receive
any calls.

B2003

I'm in the tunnel
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...
On Sep 29, 11:59 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 29 Sep 2010, Steve Terry wrote:

"Rupert Moss-Eccardt" wrote:

I believe Orange's PTT ran over GPRS data which is left running
near enough continuously.

Skype on Three i leave running continuously whilst minimised, sometimes
for weeks on end.

Presumably, providing universal 3G coverage to the emergency services
would be an entirely different kettle of fish. Very expensive fish.

Depends how it's implemented. One could suggest ditching TETRA and
running emergency service comms over Skype on Three, and perhaps such
a 'self-evident saving' might even taken seriously by an aspirant,
desperate to be noticed wonk in a right-leaning think-tank eager to
earn their spending-cut spurs...


Even Skype themselves say they should not be used for emergency calls.

The billions already spent on Tetra in the UK means it's years too late
for change to a GSM PTT system.

I can see 3g PTT Android apps being taken up big time in the near future
by commercial users with a closed group use for PTT.
Especially when Android phones get cheaper

Steve Terry
--
"I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena
without having guns pointed at me.
I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it."
- Wilhelm Reich, November 1947

I'm in the tunnel
 

wrote in message
...

Is it possible to hear London Underground radio transmissions on a regular
scanner now?

No, they now use a version of digitally encrypted Tetra

Google Tetra TFL

Steve Terry
--
"I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena
without having guns pointed at me.
I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it."
- Wilhelm Reich, November 1947

I'm in the tunnel
 

On 30/09/2010 17:42, Steve Terry wrote:
wrote in message
...

Is it possible to hear London Underground radio transmissions on a regular
scanner now?

No, they now use a version of digitally encrypted Tetra

Google Tetra TFL

Steve Terry
What about National Rail?

I'm in the tunnel
 

wrote in message
...
On 30/09/2010 17:42, Steve Terry wrote:
wrote in message
...

Is it possible to hear London Underground radio transmissions on a
regular
scanner now?

No, they now use a version of digitally encrypted Tetra

Google Tetra TFL
Steve Terry

What about National Rail?

They tend to use GSM-R
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM-R

Steve Terry
--
"I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena
without having guns pointed at me.
I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it."
- Wilhelm Reich, November 1947

I'm in the tunnel
 

On 30/09/2010 14:46, andy wrote:

Dover-Calais, even inside the restaurant, there's always some coverage
by UK or French networks on the passenger decks. Outside on top, it's
usually though not always possible to select one's UK network from
just outside Calais

You can already pick up French networks at high points in Dover.

Interestingly enough, I was in north Wales once and my mobile phone
started to pick up signals from Meteor, in the Republic of Ireland.

I'm in the tunnel
 

In message , at 19:16:56 on Thu, 30
Sep 2010, " remarked:
Dover-Calais, even inside the restaurant, there's always some coverage
by UK or French networks on the passenger decks. Outside on top, it's
usually though not always possible to select one's UK network from
just outside Calais

You can already pick up French networks at high points in Dover.

From the beach below the cliffs, you can *only* pick up French networks!
--
Roland Perry

I'm in the tunnel
 

"Steve Terry" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...

What about National Rail?

They tend to use GSM-R
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM-R

They will ultimately, but the infrastructure rollout and fit to the trains
has only just started. The reopened East London line is probably one of very
few lines where GSM(R) is the only option available, there are other areas
where it is used under trial conditions but with the obsolescent NRN and CSR
still available...

Paul S

I'm in the tunnel
 

On 30 Sep, 15:10, Mizter T wrote:
On Sep 30, 2:46*pm, andy wrote:

[snip]
Dover-Calais, even inside the restaurant, there's always some coverage
by UK or French networks on the passenger decks. Outside on top, it's
usually though not always possible to select one's UK network from
just outside Calais

You can pick up the French networks when walking along the cliffs near
Dover.


Of course, but I didn't mention it because as this is mainly British
readers we'd be less interested in doing so

I was once surprised to get 14 networks shown on a search from the top
of the ferry, on an old phone with 1800 MHz only. It wouldn't actually
log in to the Dutch ones though.

I'm in the tunnel
 

On Sep 30, 9:34*pm, andy wrote:

On 30 Sep, 15:10, Mizter T wrote:

On Sep 30, 2:46*pm, andy wrote:
[snip]
Dover-Calais, even inside the restaurant, there's always some coverage
by UK or French networks on the passenger decks. Outside on top, it's
usually though not always possible to select one's UK network from
just outside Calais

You can pick up the French networks when walking along the cliffs near
Dover.

Of course, but I didn't mention it because as this is mainly British
readers we'd be less interested in doing so

Well, when I've been walking down that way with fellow Brits and
indeed others they've certainly been amused by it - it's a great
demonstration of just how close we are on this island to the
continental mainland, yet how this little bit of water has and indeed
still does mean so much. Well, that and the fact you can easily see
ruddy great chunks of the French coast across the channel no problem!


I was once surprised to get 14 networks shown on a search from the top
of the ferry, on an old phone with 1800 MHz only. It wouldn't actually
log in to the Dutch ones though.

I shall try and remember to do that next time. ISTR that the network
of the country you're coming from hangs onto you for much of the sea
crossing (putting aside manual selection).

I'm in the tunnel
 

Meanwhile, at the uk.telecom.mobile Job Justification Hearings, Mizter T
chose the tried and tested strategy of:

On Sep 29, 11:59 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:

Presumably, providing universal 3G coverage to the emergency services
would be an entirely different kettle of fish. Very expensive fish.

Depends how it's implemented. One could suggest ditching TETRA and
running emergency service comms over Skype on Three,

You nearly got me there, until I looked up and saw it wasn't Steve Terry's
name on the post!

--
http://ale.cx/ (AIM:troffasky) )
22:18:38 up 7 days, 4:38, 7 users, load average: 0.01, 0.00, 0.00
Qua illic est accuso, illic est a vindicatum

I'm in the tunnel
 

On 2010\09\30 22:02, Mizter T wrote:

On Sep 30, 9:34 pm, wrote:

I was once surprised to get 14 networks shown on a search from the top
of the ferry, on an old phone with 1800 MHz only. It wouldn't actually
log in to the Dutch ones though.

I shall try and remember to do that next time. ISTR that the network
of the country you're coming from hangs onto you for much of the sea
crossing (putting aside manual selection).

How do you know all of this? My phone just makes calls without giving me
any info about whether foreign networks are visible.

I'm in the tunnel
 

"andy" wrote in message
...
On 30 Sep, 15:10, Mizter T wrote:
On Sep 30, 2:46 pm, andy wrote:

[snip]
Dover-Calais, even inside the restaurant, there's always some coverage
by UK or French networks on the passenger decks. Outside on top, it's
usually though not always possible to select one's UK network from
just outside Calais

You can pick up the French networks when walking along the cliffs near
Dover.

Of course, but I didn't mention it because as this is mainly British
readers we'd be less interested in doing so

I was once surprised to get 14 networks shown on a search from the top
of the ferry, on an old phone with 1800 MHz only. It wouldn't actually
log in to the Dutch ones though.


Too far for a GSM phone to work on the normal time shift multiplex,
some North Scandinavian cells use double time slots which roughly triple
the distance possible, but at the expense of only half the number of
possible users

Steve Terry
--
"I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena
without having guns pointed at me.
I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it."
- Wilhelm Reich, November 1947

I'm in the tunnel
 

On 30/09/10 23:32, Basil Jet wrote:

How do you know all of this? My phone just makes calls without giving me
any info about whether foreign networks are visible.

There will be a menu option to allow you to manually select the network
the phone is attached to. When you select this option, the phone will
present a menu of all the networks that are visible to it.

-roy

I'm in the tunnel
 

"alexd" wrote in message
...
Meanwhile, at the uk.telecom.mobile Job Justification Hearings, Mizter T
chose the tried and tested strategy of:

On Sep 29, 11:59 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:

Presumably, providing universal 3G coverage to the emergency services
would be an entirely different kettle of fish. Very expensive fish.

Depends how it's implemented. One could suggest ditching TETRA and
running emergency service comms over Skype on Three,

You nearly got me there, until I looked up and saw it wasn't Steve Terry's
name on the post!


I'm an advocate of GSM Pro PTT which has and does provided emergency
PR comms cheaply and securely in many countries for some 15 years.

I'd have to be foaming at the mouth insane to suggest Skype could replace
Tetra

I guess it comes down to whether a Gov in power at the time of such
decisions and issuing of contracts supports O2 or Ericsson?

If Ericsson, then that country is likely to get GSM Pro (at the cost of
£millions)
If O2 (or one of it's associates), then that country is likely to get Tetra
(at the cost of £billions)

Steve Terry
--
"I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena
without having guns pointed at me.
I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it."
- Wilhelm Reich, November 1947

I'm in the tunnel
 

On 30/09/2010 21:34, andy wrote:
On 30 Sep, 15:10, Mizter wrote:
On Sep 30, 2:46 pm, wrote:

[snip]
Dover-Calais, even inside the restaurant, there's always some coverage
by UK or French networks on the passenger decks. Outside on top, it's
usually though not always possible to select one's UK network from
just outside Calais

You can pick up the French networks when walking along the cliffs near
Dover.


Of course, but I didn't mention it because as this is mainly British
readers we'd be less interested in doing so

I was once surprised to get 14 networks shown on a search from the top
of the ferry, on an old phone with 1800 MHz only. It wouldn't actually
log in to the Dutch ones though.

I don't think that you can log onto the French ones from the English
side as well.