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In article ,
Jack wrote:
On 25 Oct, 12:38, "Graham J" wrote:

Then I thought for even longer periods, which I would have thought would
include your hour long journey, you'd be considered to have make one journey
without an exit, and then another one without an entry and so be debited
another maximum fare in addition to the one on entry. *Or if your station
has entry/exit validators instead of a gateline you would be considered to
have made one journey without an exit and were now starting another one.

I don't think you can ever be regarded as having made an exit without
an entry. If you attempt an exit at a gateline when you don't have a
journey open, surely you'll get "seek assistance"?

-roy

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"tim...." wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

"SamB" wrote:

Hi all

In the near future, I am intending to make a journey from Brockley to
East Croydon, to meet a friend coming from Gatwick Airport, and then
bringing him back to Brockley. How do I do this with Oyster?

Do I just exit at East Croydon, then immediately enter again? Will
this give me two separate journeys, or will I confuse it with an OOSI?

There's no OSI at East Croydon, so no possibility of that coming into
play - just exit at East Croydon and then re-enter.

(Also worth noting that OSIs don't generally apply when exiting and then
re-entering the same station/ gateline - e.g. if one were to exit Euston
tube, then re-enter, that would start a new journey - though I'm not sure
how things are configured at say Victoria, London Bridge, Liverpool
Street or other NR termini stations, where one could concievably exit,
circulate and then re-enter as part of an overall rail journey.)

And what would happen if I touched in at Brockley, then did nothing
else before touching out at Brockley an hour later?

If one was to enter Brockley then exit it before the journey timed out,
it'd be charged as a Brockley to Brockley (z2 to z2) journey,

why wouldn't in be two unresolved journeys?

Because entering and then exiting a station results in a journey from that
station, to that station.

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"Roy Badami" wrote:

On 25 Oct, 12:38, "Graham J" wrote:

Then I thought for even longer periods, which I would have thought would
include your hour long journey, you'd be considered to have make one
journey
without an exit, and then another one without an entry and so be debited
another maximum fare in addition to the one on entry. Or if your station
has entry/exit validators instead of a gateline you would be considered
to
have made one journey without an exit and were now starting another one.

I don't think you can ever be regarded as having made an exit without
an entry. If you attempt an exit at a gateline when you don't have a
journey open, surely you'll get "seek assistance"?

I don't think so, no - though if there's a full RPI ticket check at the
station I think the gates can be configured to do that.

(I'm not too sure about some of Graham J's comments - I think he's rather
overcomplicating the situation - I'll try and return to them later.)

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In message
s.com of Wed, 27 Oct 2010 01:38:21 in uk.transport.london, Jack
writes

[snip]

Thank you for a very useful description, with which I am likely to
understand what I see of how the system operates.

Correct:

Entry then exit at the same station (using one or more gates locked to
either entry or exit):

- 0 to 2.5 minutes between touches: on exit, a "same station exit"
token is written to the card, the balance remains unaffected. So the
initial maximum entry fare is what has been paid at this point. If
the card is used to reenter any rail station within 45 minutes, the
first entry fare is refunded and a new journey is started.

I've seen both those scenarios and not understood the distinction.
I take it that buses are insensitive to same station exits.

AFAIK, all customer presented times are in HH:MM format. HH:MM:SS would
be needed to see what you describe.


- 2.5 minutes - 30 minutes: on exit, the balance is adjusted according
to the highest station zone, the "journey" is completed:
e.g.
Earls Court entry 7:00 on a Tuesday £6 deducted on entry
Earls Court exit 7:15 same day £4.70 given back on exit (Z2
charge applied)

I think I have also seen that.


- more than 30 minutes between entry and exit: another maximum fare
is deducted. If the balance is too low prior to the exit touch, a red
light and "seek assistance" message is presented. If the exit touch
is made at a bidrectional validator (manual side gate for example) in
this scenario, an entry is written to the card (or if the balance is
too low, the entry is rejected).

I hit that regularly. When I remember, I do Moorgate - Liverpool Street
to avoid it. I believe it trips with Moorgate to Finsbury Park + FPK to
MGT if the 2 touches at FPK are less than 30 minutes apart. (FPK is
ungated.)


Entry then exit at the same station: ungated station:

There is a manual system for refunds and an automatic system. The
automatic system now seems to trump the manual system and gets things
wrong as it does not apply caps. The automatic system neglects to say
when the overcharge was made and how the refund was calculated.
--
Walter Briscoe

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On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 10:50:29 GMT
(Roy Badami) wrote:
I don't think you can ever be regarded as having made an exit without
an entry. If you attempt an exit at a gateline when you don't have a
journey open, surely you'll get "seek assistance"?

Only if you don't have enough for a maximum fare deduction.

B2003

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"Mizter T" wrote:

"Roy Badami" wrote:

On 25 Oct, 12:38, "Graham J" wrote:

Then I thought for even longer periods, which I would have thought
would
include your hour long journey, you'd be considered to have make one
journey without an exit, and then another one without an entry and so
be debited another maximum fare in addition to the one on entry. Or if
your
station has entry/exit validators instead of a gateline you would be
considered to have made one journey without an exit and were now
starting another one.

I don't think you can ever be regarded as having made an exit without
an entry. If you attempt an exit at a gateline when you don't have a
journey open, surely you'll get "seek assistance"?

I don't think so, no - though if there's a full RPI ticket check at the
station I think the gates can be configured to do that.

(I'm not too sure about some of Graham J's comments - I think he's rather
overcomplicating the situation - I'll try and return to them later.)

No sooner do I post the above that than I see Jack's post, which appears to
confirm Graham's take on it all! Interesting stuff, need to digest it all a
little though.

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"Mizter T" wrote:

"tim...." wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

"SamB" wrote:

Hi all

In the near future, I am intending to make a journey from Brockley to
East Croydon, to meet a friend coming from Gatwick Airport, and then
bringing him back to Brockley. How do I do this with Oyster?

Do I just exit at East Croydon, then immediately enter again? Will
this give me two separate journeys, or will I confuse it with an OOSI?

There's no OSI at East Croydon, so no possibility of that coming into
play - just exit at East Croydon and then re-enter.

(Also worth noting that OSIs don't generally apply when exiting and then
re-entering the same station/ gateline - e.g. if one were to exit Euston
tube, then re-enter, that would start a new journey - though I'm not
sure how things are configured at say Victoria, London Bridge, Liverpool
Street or other NR termini stations, where one could concievably exit,
circulate and then re-enter as part of an overall rail journey.)

And what would happen if I touched in at Brockley, then did nothing
else before touching out at Brockley an hour later?

If one was to enter Brockley then exit it before the journey timed out,
it'd be charged as a Brockley to Brockley (z2 to z2) journey,

why wouldn't in be two unresolved journeys?

Because entering and then exiting a station results in a journey from that
station, to that station.

Though as Jack has just explained, it's actually more complicated than that.

However in this instance the OP shouldn't have any problems exiting and then
re-entering at East Croydon - that would end the first journey (from
Brockley), and start a new second journey.

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"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

(Also worth noting that OSIs don't generally apply when exiting and then
re-entering the same station/ gateline - e.g. if one were to exit Euston
tube, then re-enter, that would start a new journey - though I'm not sure
how things are configured at say Victoria, London Bridge, Liverpool Street
or other NR termini stations, where one could concievably exit, circulate
and then re-enter as part of an overall rail journey.)


I can only see that happening at Victoria where, AIUI, platforms 1-8 are
treated as a different station from platforms 9-19 with an OSI between them.
I can't see any valid case for an OSI between the two gatelines on the
Southern (platforms 9-19) side of the station.

At London Bridge all the platforms are accessible to each other and from any
gateline so I would expect a re-entry to create a new journey. I don't know
the other London Termini sufficiently well to be able to comment on them.

--
DAS

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On 27 Oct, 14:08, "David A Stocks" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

...



(Also worth noting that OSIs don't generally apply when exiting and then
re-entering the same station/ gateline - e.g. if one were to exit Euston
tube, then re-enter, that would start a new journey - though I'm not sure
how things are configured at say Victoria, London Bridge, Liverpool Street
or other NR termini stations, where one could concievably exit, circulate
and then re-enter as part of an overall rail journey.)

I can only see that happening at Victoria where, AIUI, platforms 1-8 are
treated as a different station from platforms 9-19 with an OSI between them.
I can't see any valid case for an OSI between the two gatelines on the
Southern (platforms 9-19) side of the station.


Why not? It's the physical separation that matters, not the TOC. If
you wanted to go from Brighton to Battersea Park, let alone Wandsworth
Road or Clapham High Street, you could reasonably change at Victoria.



At London Bridge all the platforms are accessible to each other and from any
gateline so I would expect a re-entry to create a new journey. I don't know
the other London Termini sufficiently well to be able to comment on them.


But the accessible route requires going out of the paid area. To stay
inside you have to use the footbridge.

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"MIG" wrote in message
...
On 27 Oct, 14:08, "David A Stocks" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

...



(Also worth noting that OSIs don't generally apply when exiting and
then
re-entering the same station/ gateline - e.g. if one were to exit
Euston
tube, then re-enter, that would start a new journey - though I'm not
sure
how things are configured at say Victoria, London Bridge, Liverpool
Street
or other NR termini stations, where one could concievably exit,
circulate
and then re-enter as part of an overall rail journey.)

I can only see that happening at Victoria where, AIUI, platforms 1-8 are
treated as a different station from platforms 9-19 with an OSI between
them.
I can't see any valid case for an OSI between the two gatelines on the
Southern (platforms 9-19) side of the station.


Why not? It's the physical separation that matters, not the TOC. If
you wanted to go from Brighton
you wouldn't be using Oyster.

to Battersea Park, let alone Wandsworth
Road or Clapham High Street, you could reasonably change at Victoria.

FSVO 'reasonably'. Look at the difference in price between a zone 1-6
travelcard and a zone 2-6 travelcard. This represents the difference between
changing at Clapham Junction and/or Battersea Park vs changing at Victoria.

For a journey like Wandsworth Common to Wandsworth Road the reasonable thing
to do is to change at Battersea Park and avoid zone 1.


At London Bridge all the platforms are accessible to each other and from
any
gateline so I would expect a re-entry to create a new journey. I don't
know
the other London Termini sufficiently well to be able to comment on them.


But the accessible route requires going out of the paid area.
Agreed. I suspect a lot of accessible routes involve using side gates
without touching in/out at all.

--
DAS