Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012

From eWatford Observer, 2:14pm Wednesday 3rd November 2010

By Neil Skinner »

Trams could be running regularly between Watford and St Albans by
2012, a new report suggests.
Hertfordshire County Council, which wants to convert the Abbey Flyer
line between Watford Junction and St Albans Abbey to a tram route,
carried out an extensive public consultation earlier this year – the
full findings of which were released by the Department for Transport
(DfT) last week.
The report answers numerous questions posed by potential service users
and describes a clear time-line for the project, which will allow the
running of two trams at half-hourly intervals, instead the current one
every 45 minutes.
HCC, which will be granted ownership of the land by the government,
will sign a 22 year lease agreement with one of four shortlisted
contractors early next year.
If all goes to plan, construction work on a depot and passing loop
will begin late in 2011, with the full tram conversion opening the
following year.
Those passengers who responded to the consultation made several
requests, including upping the frequency of services to three per
hour, increasing passenger capacity at peak times and running services
later into the night.
HCC explained in the document that each was possible and would be
viewed positively if included in the tender document.
Suggestions that the line be extended to include street running in
Watford and St Albans, however, were rejected for the time being.
The council explained that funding was fixed to include only the
immediate conversion project but did not rule out extensions in the
future – should funding become available.
An extension of the line to London Euston, however, has been ruled
out.
………………………………..................
………………………………..................
John Burke
WRUG

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

From eWatford Observer, *2:14pm Wednesday 3rd November 2010

Trams could be running regularly between Watford and St Albans by
2012,

Could they ?

Won't the existing rail line have to be subject to formal closure
procedure which has not even started yet ?

--
Nick

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

"D7666" wrote in message
...
From eWatford Observer, 2:14pm Wednesday 3rd November 2010

Trams could be running regularly between Watford and St Albans by
2012,

Could they ?

Won't the existing rail line have to be subject to formal closure
procedure which has not even started yet ?

The DfT will probably end up running a parallel but completely unadvertised
taxi or bus once a week, on current form...

Paul

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Nov 3, 7:02*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Trams could be running regularly between Watford and St Albans by
2012,

Could they ?
Won't the existing rail line have to be subject to formal closure
procedure which has not even started yet ?

The DfT will probably end up running a parallel but completely unadvertised
taxi or bus once a week, on current form...

:(

But probably true.

Then they can prove how wonderful trams are compared to ... road
buses.

--
Nick

--
Nick

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Nov 3, 6:47*pm, D7666 wrote:
From eWatford Observer, *2:14pm Wednesday 3rd November 2010
Trams could be running regularly between Watford and St Albans by
2012,

Could they ?

Won't the existing rail line have to be subject to formal closure
procedure which has not even started yet ?


Why? They're not closing the line, just running a different form of
rolling stock on it (and adding a passing loop).

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Nov 3, 10:08*pm, Andy wrote:
On Nov 3, 6:47*pm, D7666 wrote:

From eWatford Observer, *2:14pm Wednesday 3rd November 2010
Trams could be running regularly between Watford and St Albans by
2012,

Could they ?

Won't the existing rail line have to be subject to formal closure
procedure which has not even started yet ?

Why? They're not closing the line, just running a different form of
rolling stock on it (and adding a passing loop).

Addiscombe - Elemers End and Wimbledon - West Croydon both had formal
closure procedings and AFAIK Manchester Bury did as well.



--
Nick

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Nov 3, 7:02*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"D7666" wrote in message

...

From eWatford Observer, *2:14pm Wednesday 3rd November 2010

Trams could be running regularly between Watford and St Albans by
2012,

Could they ?

Won't the existing rail line have to be subject to formal closure
procedure which has not even started yet ?

The DfT will probably end up running a parallel but completely unadvertised
taxi or bus once a week, on current form...


:)

Surely all the DfT would be doing is contracting the running of the
service to Hertfordshire County Council and the company which they
pick to run the trams in place of the current London Midland EMU. Not
so different from the Stourbridge Town - Stourbridge Junction service
which is run on behalf of London Midland using the Parry People
Movers.

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Nov 3, 10:24*pm, D7666 wrote:
On Nov 3, 10:08*pm, Andy wrote:

On Nov 3, 6:47*pm, D7666 wrote:

From eWatford Observer, *2:14pm Wednesday 3rd November 2010
Trams could be running regularly between Watford and St Albans by
2012,

Could they ?

Won't the existing rail line have to be subject to formal closure
procedure which has not even started yet ?

Why? They're not closing the line, just running a different form of
rolling stock on it (and adding a passing loop).

Addiscombe - Elemers End and Wimbledon - West Croydon both had formal
closure procedings and AFAIK Manchester Bury did as well.


But in both cases, part of the route was closed (for Tramlink;
Addiscombe station was abandoned, the connections at Mitcham Junction
and West Croydon were removed) and the conversion took a long time.
The track was also handed over to the tram operators; in the case of
the St. Alban's branch, my understanding is that the track will remain
in Network Rail ownership.

I don't think that there were closure notices when the Tyne and Wear
Metro was extended to Sunderland despite this leading to several
stations losing their National Rail services (East Bolden and Seaburn
for example). There will be no loss of passenger track operation with
the conversion of the St. Alban's Abbey branch.

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

"D7666" wrote in message
...
On Nov 3, 10:08 pm, Andy wrote:

Why? They're not closing the line, just running a different form of
rolling stock on it (and adding a passing loop).

Addiscombe - Elemers End and Wimbledon - West Croydon both had formal
closure procedings and AFAIK Manchester Bury did as well.

Ah, it seems the details of what they will do are in the consultation:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/...nsultation.pdf

It seems they can use an SI to exempt themselves from the requirements of
the 2005 Act's procedures, and they explain it all so I won't try and
summarise it...

Paul

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Nov 3, 10:51*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

It seems they can use an SI to exempt themselves from the requirements of
the 2005 Act's procedures,


Aha ...

.... which does mean they would have to have gone through formal
closure procedings had it not been for the SI.




--
Nick

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 11:29:13 -0700 (PDT)
burkey wrote:
The report answers numerous questions posed by potential service users
and describes a clear time-line for the project, which will allow the
running of two trams at half-hourly intervals, instead the current one
every 45 minutes.

Heres an idea - why don't they just run trains at half hourly intervals and
same the millions on conversion and buying trams?

Or am I missing something?

B2003

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

wrote:

On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 11:29:13 -0700 (PDT)
burkey wrote:
The report answers numerous questions posed by potential service users
and describes a clear time-line for the project, which will allow the
running of two trams at half-hourly intervals, instead the current one
every 45 minutes.

Heres an idea - why don't they just run trains at half hourly intervals and
same the millions on conversion and buying trams?

Because if they did that, Herts County Council wouldn't get nice
little toy of their very own to play with as a sort of apology for not
getting the far more useful Croxley Rail Link.


Or am I missing something?


You're missing a politician's cynical worldview. But in this day and
age, your naive innocence is rather sweet and touching. Don't lose
it.

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Nov 3, 8:02*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"D7666" wrote in message

...

From eWatford Observer, *2:14pm Wednesday 3rd November 2010

Trams could be running regularly between Watford and St Albans by
2012,

Could they ?

Won't the existing rail line have to be subject to formal closure
procedure which has not even started yet ?

The DfT will probably end up running a parallel but completely unadvertised
taxi or bus once a week, on current form...

If you can get away with a rail replacement bus for an indeterminate
time, I see no reason you couldn't get away with a rail replacement
tram in the same way.

Robin

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

Heres an idea - why don't they just run trains at half hourly intervals and
same the millions on conversion and buying trams?

Or am I missing something?


The trams like the trains will not go where most of the passengers
want to go, which is central London, because we are in the heart of
commuter land after all.

Why not spend some money to allow the branch service to run through to
Euston.

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 12:40:33 -0700 (PDT)
allantracy wrote:
The trams like the trains will not go where most of the passengers
want to go, which is central London, because we are in the heart of
commuter land after all.

Why not spend some money to allow the branch service to run through to
Euston.

Shame on you for coming up with a sensible suggestion. You'd never get a
job in a council!

B2003

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Nov 5, 10:48*am, wrote:

Why not spend some money to allow the branch service to run through to
Euston.

Shame on you for coming up with a sensible suggestion. You'd never get a
job in a council!

Here's a thought - would an hourly service through to/from Euston be
more useful than a more frequent service on the branch? Could the
money thus be spent on connecting it to the mainline instead?

How much would it cost to bring the connection up to passenger
standards?

Neil

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Nov 5, 9:56*am, Neil Williams wrote:
On Nov 5, 10:48*am, wrote:

Why not spend some money to allow the branch service to run through to
Euston.

Shame on you for coming up with a sensible suggestion. You'd never get a
job in a council!

Here's a thought - would an hourly service through to/from Euston be
more useful than a more frequent service on the branch? *Could the
money thus be spent on connecting it to the mainline instead?


The line has a mixture of uses. During the peak there is a high
percentage of commuters who travel onto Euston whilst off-peak there
is currently little demand for through journeys. An hourly service
would not be good for the peak commuters, as there is currently a
42-43 min frequency until 10am.

How much would it cost to bring the connection up to passenger
standards?


As the connection is currently via the headshunt from the line which
runs through the yard to platform 11, it would probably be quite
expensive as a stand alone project. Either the old connection to
platform 10 would need to be reinstated, cutting the car park in two,
or the junction with mainline upgraded. There would also probably have
to be facilities for coupling / uncoupling units as running a four car
train from Watford Junction - Euston in the peak would not be a good
idea.

If the line hadn't have been severed from the main station (the
current platform 10 and the adjacent unused platform) in the 1960s, I
imagine that we would already have a through service and the argument
would just be about the addition of Bricket Wood loop to increase
frequencies. For a time in the 1980s, the peak Euston - Watford
mainline service was timetabled as though it could run through to St.
Albans (arrival/departure of the mainline train and the branch train
were close together) and there was certain a plan for this to happen
on the last occasion that the track layout at Watford Junction was
remodelled.

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Nov 5, 12:10*pm, Andy wrote:

The line has a mixture of uses. During the peak there is a high
percentage of commuters who travel onto Euston whilst off-peak there
is currently little demand for through journeys. An hourly service
would not be good for the peak commuters, as there is currently a
42-43 min frequency until 10am.

I'm never quite sure if a hotch-potch frequency like that is actually
helpful. Hourly clockface is arguably more useful, because it's more
memorable and connects with things better. Few people, after all,
"turn up and go" for a frequency like that. It's once you go below
hourly that the "hotch potch" best-possible-with-one-unit frequencies
may be best.

The trouble is that the press might see it differently.

Neil

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Nov 5, 12:10*pm, Andy wrote:

As the connection is currently via the headshunt from the line which
runs through the yard to platform 11, it would probably be quite
expensive as a stand alone project. Either the old connection to
platform 10 would need to be reinstated, cutting the car park in two,
or the junction with mainline upgraded. There would also probably have
to be facilities for coupling / uncoupling units as running a four car
train from Watford Junction - Euston in the peak would not be a good
idea.

Presumably you could uncouple and leave 4 in the platform while going
to St Albans and back? Could form the basis of a half-hourly all-day
Watford shuttle to remove local stops from the longer-distance stuff,
as I believe is the end game.

That, or make it "u"/"s" at Watford. As it's a separate platform, it
wouldn't be hard to enforce.

Neil

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Nov 4, 10:48*am, wrote:
On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 11:29:13 -0700 (PDT)

burkey wrote:
The report answers numerous questions posed by potential service users
and describes a clear time-line for the project, which will allow the
running of two trams at half-hourly intervals, instead the current one
every 45 minutes.

Heres an idea - why don't they just run trains at half hourly intervals and
same the millions on conversion and buying trams?

What I don't know is whether the consultants examined the option of
lightweight vehicles being able to complete the journey in 12 minutes,
through rapid acceleration, late braking, easing of PSRs at each end
and full automation of the level crossing at Watford North for
northbound services. *If* this were feasible [1], 3-min turnarounds
with short units on a self-contained service free of imported delays
shouldn't be impossible [2]. That would mean half-hourly services
could run, but without a loop.

However, it's clearly better to reinstate the loop to maximise
reliability, as well as building in an element of future-proofing e.g.
if new stations extend end to end journey times.

[1] A dusty bin with a good driver can do it in 15 mins southbound.
[2] The Stourbridge branch provides a real-life example.

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

In message
, at
02:56:19 on Fri, 5 Nov 2010, Neil Williams
remarked:
Here's a thought - would an hourly service through to/from Euston be
more useful than a more frequent service on the branch? Could the
money thus be spent on connecting it to the mainline instead?

What sort of train could be run - seems to be a waste of a path on the
main line if it was a short one, but an unnecessary expense to run a
long train on the branch (would the platforms have to be extended)?
--
Roland Perry

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Nov 5, 1:12*pm, EE507 wrote:

However, it's clearly better to reinstate the loop to maximise
reliability, as well as building in an element of future-proofing e.g.
if new stations extend end to end journey times.

Or I suppose if the idea of half hourly clockface increased passenger
numbers to the point that an increase in frequency was desired.

Neil

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Nov 5, 1:14*pm, Roland Perry wrote:

What sort of train could be run - seems to be a waste of a path on the
main line if it was a short one, but an unnecessary expense to run a
long train on the branch (would the platforms have to be extended)?

It'd only make sense as part of a self contained half hourly Watford-
Euston shuttle as I believe is the long-term plan. Would have to be
either 321 or 350, depending what is used for such a shuttle (it would
make sense to use 321s as a self contained service, I reckon).

Neil

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Nov 5, 11:23*am, Neil Williams wrote:
On Nov 5, 12:10*pm, Andy wrote:

The line has a mixture of uses. During the peak there is a high
percentage of commuters who travel onto Euston whilst off-peak there
is currently little demand for through journeys. An hourly service
would not be good for the peak commuters, as there is currently a
42-43 min frequency until 10am.

I'm never quite sure if a hotch-potch frequency like that is actually
helpful. *Hourly clockface is arguably more useful, because it's more
memorable and connects with things better. *Few people, after all,
"turn up and go" for a frequency like that. *It's once you go below
hourly that the "hotch potch" best-possible-with-one-unit frequencies
may be best.


It's helpful in the peak, when times can be matched to people wanting
an early, intermediate or late arrival into London. When class 313s
were used, with a quick turn around, a forty minute frequency was
possible, but the class 321s seem to be slower off the mark. A forty
minute frequency equates to three trains every two hours and when I
lived on the line, times were easy to remember as, for example, 21
past the odd hours and 01/41 past the even hours giving a pseudo-
clockface pattern.

The trouble is that the press might see it differently.

Neil

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Nov 5, 11:26*am, Neil Williams wrote:
On Nov 5, 12:10*pm, Andy wrote:

As the connection is currently via the headshunt from the line which
runs through the yard to platform 11, it would probably be quite
expensive as a stand alone project. Either the old connection to
platform 10 would need to be reinstated, cutting the car park in two,
or the junction with mainline upgraded. There would also probably have
to be facilities for coupling / uncoupling units as running a four car
train from Watford Junction - Euston in the peak would not be a good
idea.

Presumably you could uncouple and leave 4 in the platform while going
to St Albans and back? *Could form the basis of a half-hourly all-day
Watford shuttle to remove local stops from the longer-distance stuff,
as I believe is the end game.

Only if platform 10 was to be used, the current platform 11 is only 4
cars.


That, or make it "u"/"s" at Watford. *As it's a separate platform, it
wouldn't be hard to enforce.


And at Bushey / Harrow? When I used the branch it was to commute to/
from Harrow and I used to catch the branch train to Watford Junction
and across to the Watford - Euston mainline service to Harrow. Running
a four car train would still eat into capacity on the mainline
wherever it is running to/from.

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Nov 5, 12:28*pm, Neil Williams wrote:

It'd only make sense as part of a self contained half hourly Watford-
Euston shuttle


Or Watford - West London line - somewhere in third rail land.

Or Watford - Heathrow Airport which does not require that much wiring
to achieve.



--
Nick

Watford to St Albans tram link could open in 2012
 

On Nov 5, 5:55*pm, D7666 wrote:
On Nov 5, 12:28*pm, Neil *Williams wrote:

It'd only make sense as part of a self contained half hourly Watford-
Euston shuttle

Or Watford - West London line - somewhere in third rail land.

Or Watford - Heathrow Airport which does not require that much wiring
to achieve.

--
Nick

I seem to recall someone pointing out that as Southern and London
Midland have the same parent company that extending the Southern
services that then terminated at Watford Junction to St. Albans might
be possible. It was put to the TOC and was ruled out.