The BorisMaster
 

"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk
Like it or loathe it, here is today's London newspaper report of a
full-size "Boris Bus" intended to succeed the Routemaster:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...s-routemaster-
as-boris-bus-rolls-into-london.do , sponsored by London Mayor Boris
Johnson.

I loathe it. Open rear platform! The man's a Neanderthal!

Yes, it was on local TV as well. I suspect it'll be very popular if
enough can be afforded.

Incidentally, this was discussed at great length on uk.t.l when the
design was first unveiled some months ago, and before that, when the
design competition was run. The news this time is that the mock-up is
available for the public to inspect.

The BorisMaster
 

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 15:49:09 -0000
"Recliner" wrote:
"Michael Bell" wrote in message
.uk
Like it or loathe it, here is today's London newspaper report of a
full-size "Boris Bus" intended to succeed the Routemaster:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...ls-routemaster

as-boris-bus-rolls-into-london.do , sponsored by London Mayor Boris
Johnson.

I loathe it. Open rear platform! The man's a Neanderthal!

Yes, it was on local TV as well. I suspect it'll be very popular if
enough can be afforded.

Looks like a bog standard double decker with a hole in the back. Which because
it still has the other 2 doors will mean even less seating on the ground floor
than the current ones. Genius.

B2003

The BorisMaster
 

"Recliner" wrote:

"Michael Bell" wrote:
Like it or loathe it, here is today's London newspaper report of
a full-size "Boris Bus" intended to succeed the Routemaster:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...e-23896801-.do
as-boris-bus-rolls-into-london.do , sponsored by London Mayor
Boris Johnson.

I loathe it. Open rear platform! The man's a Neanderthal!

Yes, it was on local TV as well. I suspect it'll be very popular if
enough can be afforded.

Incidentally, this was discussed at great length on uk.t.l when the design
was first unveiled some months ago, and before that, when the design
competition was run. The news this time is that the mock-up is available
for the public to inspect.

Indeed, we've had many in depth discussions about it all on utl. The cost is
of course a big question, as is just how much use the rear platform would
see in day to day use, and how it would be staffed (which is itself of
course a cost issue).

I noted this paragraph in the piece in the Standard:

---quote---
A mock-up of the "New bus for London" - which the Mayor's aides are happy to
have nicknamed the "Boris bus" - was unveiled in the capital.
---/quote---

So that's alongside 'Boris bikes' too. Meanwhile all Ken got it terms of
transport related nicknamery was for a few people to call the CC the
'Kengestion charge' - though thankfully that was so unutterably lame that it
never took off. Of course all the various transport improvements that
happened or were initiated under Livingstone don't really fit into a neat
catchphrase or two.

'Boris boats'? Well, despite Mr Gilligan's best efforts, I don't think
riverbuses (useful as they can be) are about to become the centrepiece of
the metropolis's transport system - Tom of Boriswatch's take on this can be
read he
http://www.boriswatch.co.uk/2010/03/...xchange-f-off/

'Borisport' - the proposed new London airport out in the Thames estuary...
er, yeah, perhaps prefixing everything with 'Boris' isn't an automatic path
to its fruition.

(To be fair, I'm not sure the Mayor's aides ever used the phrase
'Borisport', plus I kinda invented the 'Boris boats' phrase just now, I
haven't come across it beforehand - though if the GLA ever gets control of
the Royal Parks as has been mooted, then if the pedalos on the Serpentine
need replacing whilst Bozza is still mayor maybe he could come up with some
whizzo new design...)

Re the prototype of this new bus - AFAICS the ES piece doesn't actually say
that the unwashed masses are going to be allowed to see it, just
'stakeholders' and the like. (I think I've got a stake left over from
Halloween fancy dress, so perhaps I too could become a stakeholder?)

The BorisMaster
 

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 15:49:09 -0000
"Recliner" wrote:
"Michael Bell" wrote in message
o.uk
Like it or loathe it, here is today's London newspaper report of a
full-size "Boris Bus" intended to succeed the Routemaster:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...ls-routemaster

The prototype hasn't got an engine.

Maybe they can put an electric motor in it, and supply the power from
a couple of wires strung above the streets?

:o)

The BorisMaster
 

On 11/11/2010 16:56, Mizter T wrote:

I noted this paragraph in the piece in the Standard:

---quote---
A mock-up of the "New bus for London" - which the Mayor's aides are
happy to have nicknamed the "Boris bus" - was unveiled in the capital.
---/quote---

So that's alongside 'Boris bikes' too.

Although Boris Bike is perhaps less painful than referring to them by
the official sponsor's name.

Other than people like us, how many people these days know that
[Hore-]Belisha of beacon fame was a politician?
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

The BorisMaster
 

"Arthur Figgis" wrote:

On 11/11/2010 16:56, Mizter T wrote:

I noted this paragraph in the piece in the Standard:

---quote---
A mock-up of the "New bus for London" - which the Mayor's aides are
happy to have nicknamed the "Boris bus" - was unveiled in the capital.
---/quote---

So that's alongside 'Boris bikes' too.

Although Boris Bike is perhaps less painful than referring to them by the
official sponsor's name.

Agreed - I came to that conclusion a little while back. Though it's perhaps
worth noting that the scheme's 'official' name isn't 'Barclays Bikes' but
"Barclays Cycle Hire". 'London Cycle Hire Scheme' or LCHS doesn't exatly
roll off the tip of the tongue either!


Other than people like us, how many people these days know that
[Hore-]Belisha of beacon fame was a politician?

Interesting thought - seventy plus years hence will Mr Johnson be long
forgotten but the 'Boris bikes' still going strong (well, presumably not the
same ones)...

The BorisMaster
 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/d...bus-for-london

I see they may give it the offical name of "Routemaster".


--
Roger Traviss

Photos of the late GER: -
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

For more photos not in the above album and kitbashes etc..:-
http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l9...Great_Eastern/

The BorisMaster
 

"Roger Traviss" wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/d...bus-for-london

I see they may give it the offical name of "Routemaster".


That's not quite what Dave Hill says in his blog post:
---quote---
Peter Hendy told me the other week that he doubted the New Bus would be
called a Routemaster, but whatever formal name it is eventually given I
think the Mayor wouldn't mind if that bus name of London legend was revived
by the public and applied to the bus just in time for the next election -
either that or his own name. [...]
---/quote---

The following drew allusions in my mind with the designed to be
maintenance-friendly Routemaster:
---quote---
There's a lot of pride in the project at TfL. Hendy drew attention to the
bodywork down the side, sections of which can be easily removed if damaged
and replacements swiftly screwed in place - no point having a
luscious-looking bus if it too easily starts looking knocked about.
---/quote---


Lastly, Dave Hill has written a separate Guardian news article on the new
bus to accompany the blog post, which is available he
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/201...ils-london-bus

In said article I noted the following, which answers one significant
question about the crewing of the new bus:

---quote---
Johnson confirmed that the new bus would also have a conductor on board some
of the time.

Peter Hendy, Transport for London commissioner, said that staff would be
trained and recruited for the task rather than being, for example, police
community support officers, as Johnson once suggested they might be. Hendy
stressed their role would include "doing some of the things people expect of
a person in uniform", such as assisting passengers on and off the rear open
platform and ensuring people have swiped their Oyster cards.

Hendy and Johnson explained that the rear platform could be kept open during
journeys with a second staff member present, enabling passengers to "hop on
and hop off" between stops. However, with only a driver present the rear
platform would be closed off between stops with an automatic door, operated
by the driver.
---/quote---

What it doesn't answer is where and when that conductor will be present -
will it only be peak hours, busy stretches of the route, central London only
etc etc?

Anyhow, it seems as though this whole project might just possibly work out,
though I do remain worried about the bigger picture - essentially the cost
of it all, not just of the buses themselves but of the extra crewing. The
worry being specifically that funding for the majority of the unsexy but
highly useful and well patronised London bus network might get diverted to
support this project - and furthermore, if it is indeed a success amongst
the public at large then there will inevitably be demands that the new buses
come to their local bus route, and that conductors stay on the bus for
longer.

Which, when compared to the sleek look of the prototype, all sounds very
boring - but if the network as a whole loses out (less frequent, worse
service etc), and fares are ratcheted up, and fewer people travel by bus as
a result, that would not be a win. The London bus service over the past
decade is so much better than it was over the preceding ten that it'd be a
great shame if this progress was lost.

The BorisMaster
 

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 18:34:14 +0000, Mizter T wrote:

snip
'London Cycle Hire Scheme' or LCHS
doesn't exatly roll off the tip of the tongue either!
snip

Oh, I don't know. I suspect that certain people around here would be
rather pleased by the possibility of travelling through central London on
LHCS every day...

--
Bewdley, Worcs. 90m asl.

The BorisMaster
 

"Tim Fenton" wrote:

"Recliner" wrote:

Yes, it was on local TV as well. I suspect it'll be very popular if
enough can be afforded.

Popular where? One hates to mention it, but the original Routemaster only
ever sold fifty vehicles outside London, because you had to have Park
Royal's London spec body whether you liked it or not [1], as well as the
gearbox set up to drive like an automatic, the latter to ease the
transition for Trolleybus drivers.

Other than Northern General (one for Michael Bell land), all other
operators who bought AEC ordered Regent Vs.

And I suspect that operators outside London won't want the BozzaBus
either, when there are more conventional deckers on offer.

Yes, in the UK at least. I can perhaps see there being some sort of world
market for them, but maybe rather more as a novelty rather than as an
integral part of a city's transport system. (Serious question -who/where
might conceivably be interested in buying some for proper, full on
day-to-day use?) Of course there's the obvious RHD/LHD issue - if there was
to be an LHD version, there'd need to be sufficient demand.

You can see my more sceptical thoughts about this in another post on this
thread, but on the positive side of things even if it were never exported
elsewhere (or only in small numbers, as an RHD, as a novelty item), it would
likely assume status as an iconic image of London around the world - or
rather, re-assume that status, taking over from the Routemaster. So from a
tourism point of view, it would enhance 'brand London'. (An obvious point
really I know - oh, and yes, I did type 'iconic' and 'brand London' through
slightly gritted teeth - or sandpapered fingers or whatever the keyboard
equivalent would be!)


What they might have been better doing would have been to cost an RHD
adaptation of vehicles like those in use in cities like Berlin - double
staricase, lots of capacity.

Yes, though the issue with a Berlin style bus in London might well have been
the length - see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Do...achsig_BVG.jpg

Yes, yes, before anyone says it the bendy buses are indeed also longer than
your normal bus, but (without really wanting to stoke yet another bendy bus
debate) pertinently they do, er, bend!

The BorisMaster
 

" Yes, in the UK at least. I can perhaps see there being some sort of world
market for them, but maybe rather more as a novelty rather than as an
integral part of a city's transport system. (Serious question -who/where
might conceivably be interested in buying some for proper, full on
day-to-day use?) Of course there's the obvious RHD/LHD issue - if there
was to be an LHD version, there'd need to be sufficient demand.


Victoria BC has used double deckers for something like 10 years, in two
models.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vi...ubledecker.JPG



--
Roger Traviss

Photos of the late GER: -
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

For more photos not in the above album and kitbashes etc..:-
http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l9...Great_Eastern/

The BorisMaster
 

"Roger Traviss" wrote:
Yes, in the UK at least. I can perhaps see there being some sort of world
market for them, but maybe rather more as a novelty rather than as an
integral part of a city's transport system. (Serious question -who/where
might conceivably be interested in buying some for proper, full on
day-to-day use?) Of course there's the obvious RHD/LHD issue - if there
was to be an LHD version, there'd need to be sufficient demand.

Victoria BC has used double deckers for something like 10 years, in two
models.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vi...ubledecker.JPG


Yeah, but would they want a bus half-designed for use with conductors and a
(part-time) open rear platform?

If a version was produced without the rear platform then you start asking
questions as to whether the rear staircase is necessary at all, and if it
isn't - well, that's kinda two lynchpin elements of the buses design that'd
be in the bin, whereupon you start asking whether there'd be that much point
in it. Just being brutally realistic.

The BorisMaster
 

Yeah, but would they want a bus half-designed for use with conductors and
a (part-time) open rear platform?

North America has been one man busses since, well, when Noah were a lad.

Conductors went out with the trams and even most of them were one man
operation.



--
Roger Traviss

Photos of the late GER: -
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

For more photos not in the above album and kitbashes etc..:-
http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l9...Great_Eastern/

The BorisMaster
 

"Roger Traviss" wrote:

Yeah, but would they want a bus half-designed for use with conductors and
a (part-time) open rear platform?

North America has been one man busses since, well, when Noah were a lad.

Conductors went out with the trams and even most of them were one man
operation.

Quite.

The BorisMaster
 

"Paul Corfield" wrote:

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:34:05 -0800, "Roger Traviss"
wrote:

" Yes, in the UK at least. I can perhaps see there being some sort of
world
market for them, but maybe rather more as a novelty rather than as an
integral part of a city's transport system. (Serious question -who/where
might conceivably be interested in buying some for proper, full on
day-to-day use?) Of course there's the obvious RHD/LHD issue - if there
was to be an LHD version, there'd need to be sufficient demand.

Victoria BC has used double deckers for something like 10 years, in two
models.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vi...ubledecker.JPG

Yes Alexander Dennis Enviro 500s by the looks of it. Manufactured in the
dear old UK and 12m long. The same length as some of the former Hong
Kong deckers that happily trundle round London on sightseeing duties.

I believe the Borismaster is specced to be a record 13.7m long which is
huge for a rigid double decker in London. I think there are some turns
in Central London that they won't get round being that long. The bendies
may be 18m in length but their turning ability is that of a much shorter
vehicle - somewhere between 10-11m.

I understand the Neoman Lion City deckers for Berlin are also 13.7m
long.

Thanks for the interesting data - and food for thought.

Whilst these new buses will be more distinctive than the Berlin Lion's,
given the lack of a third door when in OPO mode (outside of central London)
perhaps they'll be less useful. And the question as to how entry/exit in OPO
mode will work remains - will it be board by the front door past the driver
and exit through the middle (the back will be locked out), or will it be
board either door (as per the new Citaros on routes 507/521, which are akin
to bendies but without the third door and back section). If it's the latter
then the question of revenue checks, which was something many critics of the
bendies focused on, would remain.

The BorisMaster
 

Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 11/11/2010 16:56, Mizter T wrote:

I noted this paragraph in the piece in the Standard:

---quote---
A mock-up of the "New bus for London" - which the Mayor's aides are
happy to have nicknamed the "Boris bus" - was unveiled in the capital.
---/quote---

So that's alongside 'Boris bikes' too.

Although Boris Bike is perhaps less painful than referring to them by
the official sponsor's name.

Other than people like us, how many people these days know that
[Hore-]Belisha of beacon fame was a politician?
--

Asking a question like that in this newsgroup is fruitless since it
is only
Read by "people like us..."

I thought it would be a nice thought, in certain selected areas to
substitute the flashing amber for red and they could be called
Hore beacons


David

The BorisMaster
 

In article ,
(Mizter T) wrote:

Re the prototype of this new bus - AFAICS the ES piece doesn't
actually say that the unwashed masses are going to be allowed to
see it, just 'stakeholders' and the like. (I think I've got a stake
left over from Halloween fancy dress, so perhaps I too could become
a stakeholder?)

Whenever I hear that dreaded term I think of vampires.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

The BorisMaster
 

" wrote:

Arthur Figgis wrote:
[snip]
Other than people like us, how many people these days know that
[Hore-]Belisha of beacon fame was a politician?
--

Asking a question like that in this newsgroup is fruitless since it
is only Read by "people like us..."

I thought it would be a nice thought, in certain selected areas to
substitute the flashing amber for red and they could be called
Hore beacons


;-)

I'm gonna use that! (It'll probably still be met with vacant looks from many
though... sigh!)

The BorisMaster
 

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:50:04 -0000
"Ian" wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 15:49:09 -0000
"Recliner" wrote:
"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. co.uk
Like it or loathe it, here is today's London newspaper report of a
full-size "Boris Bus" intended to succeed the Routemaster:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...ails-routemast
r

The prototype hasn't got an engine.

By the looks of it there isn't anywhere practical to put an engine unless
it'll be in the middle somewhere with some ugly hump in the passenger
compartment.

B2003

The BorisMaster
 

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 22:06:56 +0000
Paul Corfield wrote:
I believe the Borismaster is specced to be a record 13.7m long which is
huge for a rigid double decker in London. I think there are some turns
in Central London that they won't get round being that long. The bendies
may be 18m in length but their turning ability is that of a much shorter
vehicle - somewhere between 10-11m.

Why arn't I surprised. I always thought Boris's stand against bendies was
political rather than practical - a way of visibily chucking out something
high profile than Ken brought in rather than a way of improving bus travel
for commuters.

Won't it be ironic if these waste of money routemasters cause just as many
traffic problems as the bendies they replace.

B2003

The BorisMaster
 

On 11/11/2010 15:49, Recliner wrote:
"Michael wrote in message
. uk
Like it or loathe it, here is today's London newspaper report of a
full-size "Boris Bus" intended to succeed the Routemaster:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...s-routemaster-
as-boris-bus-rolls-into-london.do , sponsored by London Mayor Boris
Johnson.

I loathe it. Open rear platform! The man's a Neanderthal!

Yes, it was on local TV as well. I suspect it'll be very popular if
enough can be afforded.

Incidentally, this was discussed at great length on uk.t.l when the
design was first unveiled some months ago, and before that, when the
design competition was run. The news this time is that the mock-up is
available for the public to inspect.


Where can one see it?

The BorisMaster
 

On 13/11/2010 14:22, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 14:08:47 +0000, "
wrote:

On 11/11/2010 15:49, Recliner wrote:

Incidentally, this was discussed at great length on uk.t.l when the
design was first unveiled some months ago, and before that, when the
design competition was run. The news this time is that the mock-up is
available for the public to inspect.

Where can one see it?

You can't see it. The launch was held at the Museum Depot at Acton. I
assume it is still there but who knows?

The mock up has been provided for stakeholders and user groups to see it
and try to get on and off it.

Surely passengers are stakeholders... aren't they...?

Accessibility groups as well as London
Travelwatch and MPs / London Assembly members would be key invitees. I
sure bus company reps and others will also feature.

It may be that TfL will decide to allow the general public to see it but
I have to read anything that says that will happen.

ISTR they did with a mock up of the new Victoria Line trains.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

The BorisMaster
 

On 13/11/2010 19:03, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 18:40:23 +0000, Arthur Figgis
wrote:

[nb4l consultation]

Surely passengers are stakeholders... aren't they...?

In my view yes. However TfL's consultation processes tends to
concentrate on groups that represent others. There is now more openness
about some bus route consultations (via the web) but it still tends to
be councils, GLA members, London Travelwatch etc that get the formal
documents / invites / briefings. I'd like to see more openness but
there is a risk that the "loony fringe" would overwhelm the due process
with inappropriate comments.

Yes, I can see the problem. Though at risk of going a bit Daily Mail, I
might also worry that no-one represents people like me at these things.

I saw this first hand when I visited a consultation session on the
proposals for the Tottenham Hale gyratory scheme. I had a load of
comments on that scheme and was listened to and was given good
explanations as to why things had been planned in a particular way.
Unfortunately at the same time several visitors were simply berating the
TfL people because Tottenham Hale bus station was temporarily closed and
buses weren't serving it and people therefore had longer walks than
usual. I understand why they were complaining but it wasn't the place
to do it!

BTDTGTTS.

With the best will in the world there is a risk that too many "frothing
at the mouth" bus enthusiasts would turn up at a public session of NB4L
viewing and simply denounce the new bus as "evil" because it is not a
Routemaster! I've seen it and read about it over Routemaster withdrawal
and bendy bus introduction. It would be naive to assume NB4L would
escape the same potential hysteria.

What, people get obsessively upset over changes to London bus services...?

I still hope the public do get to see the mock up though.

ISTR they did with a mock up of the new Victoria Line trains.

Yes and unfortunately the real thing is just like the mock up despite
all the comments I made about how ghastly the seats were and on various
other matters.

Ah, but at least they consulted. Did they every say anything about
taking any notice...?

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

The BorisMaster
 

Arthur Figgis wrote:

Surely passengers are stakeholders... aren't they...?

Only in Transylvania.
--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9633076.html
(50 029 at Rowsley, 17 Jun 2004)