Questions about debendification
 

I'm curious about how debendification affects the London bus system
from a user perspective.

My first question, somewhat academic since it is easily sidestepped
simply by using Oyster, is about "pay before you board". The rule
about paying before boarding, as stated in the January 2009 fares
leaflet (the last one I have a PDF copy of) was:

Cash single fares are not available on buses in the Pay Before You
Board area in central London, on bendy buses or on route
W7. Before boarding, you must have enough credit on your Oyster
card to pay as you go or have a valid ticket.

Assuming this rule is still current, debendification would presumably
take a number of bus routes outside the scope of the above rule. Do
routes cease to be "pay before you board" when they get debendified,
or what?

My other question regards boarding. I had understood that one always
had to board a bus by the front door (even if one had, say, a
travelcard or concessionary pass) *unless* it was a bendy bus. But
Mizter T explained last time we were discussing debendification that
on some routes the bendies have been replaced with single decker buses
that allow boarding through both doors.

So what *is* the rule for boarding non-bendy buses, now? How does one
know whether or not one is permitted to board via the rear door?

And why is this all so complicated? :-)

TIA,

-roy

Questions about debendification
 

On Nov 13, 5:23*pm, (Roy Badami) wrote:
I'm curious about how debendification affects the London bus system
from a user perspective.

My first question, somewhat academic since it is easily sidestepped
simply by using Oyster, is about "pay before you board". *The rule
about paying before boarding, as stated in the January 2009 fares
leaflet (the last one I have a PDF copy of) was:

* * Cash single fares are not available on buses in the Pay Before You
* * Board area in central London, on bendy buses or on route
* * W7. Before boarding, you must have enough credit on your Oyster
* * card to pay as you go or have a valid ticket.

Assuming this rule is still current, debendification would presumably
take a number of bus routes outside the scope of the above rule. *Do
routes cease to be "pay before you board" when they get debendified,
or what?

My other question regards boarding. *I had understood that one always
had to board a bus by the front door (even if one had, say, a
travelcard or concessionary pass) *unless* it was a bendy bus. *But
Mizter T explained last time we were discussing debendification that
on some routes the bendies have been replaced with single decker buses
that allow boarding through both doors.

So what *is* the rule for boarding non-bendy buses, now? *How does one
know whether or not one is permitted to board via the rear door?

And why is this all so complicated? :-)

TIA,

* * -roy

How do you find out where the Pay Before You Board area starts anyway?

It's not obvious from a quick look at the TfL site. Is there a map
somewhere?

Questions about debendification
 

On Nov 13, 5:59*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:36:02 -0800 (PST), MIG





wrote:
On Nov 13, 5:23*pm, (Roy Badami) wrote:
I'm curious about how debendification affects the London bus system
from a user perspective.

My first question, somewhat academic since it is easily sidestepped
simply by using Oyster, is about "pay before you board". *The rule
about paying before boarding, as stated in the January 2009 fares
leaflet (the last one I have a PDF copy of) was:

* * Cash single fares are not available on buses in the Pay Before You
* * Board area in central London, on bendy buses or on route
* * W7. Before boarding, you must have enough credit on your Oyster
* * card to pay as you go or have a valid ticket.

Assuming this rule is still current, debendification would presumably
take a number of bus routes outside the scope of the above rule. *Do
routes cease to be "pay before you board" when they get debendified,
or what?

They cease to be "pay before you board" when they remove bendy buses.
The roadside machines are taken out of service overnight and then
progressively removed. The yellow round number "tiles" on the stops and
the yellow "pay before you board" banner on the bus stop flag are
usually removed a couple of days before hand. This was certainly what
happened with the 149 - one reason I took extra care to photograph the
bus stops and a roadside machine. A bit of operational history that will
soon be gone.

My other question regards boarding. *I had understood that one always
had to board a bus by the front door (even if one had, say, a
travelcard or concessionary pass) *unless* it was a bendy bus. *But
Mizter T explained last time we were discussing debendification that
on some routes the bendies have been replaced with single decker buses
that allow boarding through both doors.

There are only two exceptions to the general rule - these are Red Arrows
507 and 521. They are so busy and have such a huge proportion of
pre-paid travellers that allowing all door boarding is the only way they
can work post bendy operation. Commuters got used to lining up with the
three doors - now they line up with the 2 doors on the rigid Citaros
that took over. Waterloo and the 521 is the best place to see this in
action.

So what *is* the rule for boarding non-bendy buses, now? *How does one
know whether or not one is permitted to board via the rear door?

You board at the front on all conventional routes except the 507 and
521. Bendy routes 25, 29, 73, 207, 453 and 436 retain all door boarding
until conversion.

I had a quick chat to a route 18 driver when I was out with my camera
the other weekend. They were not looking forward to conversion because
they felt the multi door boarding worked really well on what is a long
and very busy service. It is interesting that 2 bendy routes (18*, 25)
are long enough to stretch from zone 1 to zone 4 - this is really very
rare in the bus network as routes from zone 1 rarely stretch into zone 3
never mind zone 4.

* allow me one day's indulgence. I know it's converted today.

And why is this all so complicated? :-)

It isn't that complicated really. *People have adapted very quickly to
cashless operation although I'll concede the central area can confuse
some tourists.

There are considerable benefits in keeping dwell times very low. *You
only need go outside London to any busy city and see the inordinate time
taken to board a bus at busy stops with everyone paying cash. Buses
stand still for minutes at a time. *It might be good cash flow for the
bus company but it does nothing for operational efficiency in terms of
keeping total run times and thus peak vehicle requirements down.

How do you find out where the Pay Before You Board area starts anyway?

You look at the yellow banners on the stops.

It's not obvious from a quick look at the TfL site. *Is there a map
somewhere?

The privately produced Greater London Bus Map shows it in outline on the
Central London side of the map.

http://www.busmap.org/downloads/No31Page%201.pdf

If I wanted people to have paid in advance before using buses in a
particular area, I think I'd make a bit more effort to let them know
where that area was before they were at the point of getting on a bus
in that area.

Questions about debendification
 

Thanks, Paul, very helpful.

Interesting (and slightly surprising) that they're removing pay as you
board from routes -- it seems a waste of resources to have to go
around removing perfectly good ticket machines.

-roy

Questions about debendification
 

Roy it was installing the ticket machines in the first place that was
a waste of money, hardly anybody uses them.

On Nov 13, 6:38*pm, (Roy Badami) wrote:
Thanks, Paul, very helpful.

Interesting (and slightly surprising) that they're removing pay as you
board from routes -- it seems a waste of resources to have to go
around removing perfectly good ticket machines.

* * -roy

Questions about debendification
 

On Nov 17, 6:42*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 06:46:30 -0800 (PST), George
wrote:

On Nov 13, 6:38*pm, (Roy Badami) wrote:
Thanks, Paul, very helpful.

Interesting (and slightly surprising) that they're removing pay as you
board from routes -- it seems a waste of resources to have to go
around removing perfectly good ticket machines.

Roy it was installing the ticket machines in the first place that was
a waste of money, hardly anybody uses them.

Hello George! *Another place for you to post.

No it wasn't a waste of money. If you think about the operating concept
then it is absolutely essential that passengers who do not have an
Oyster card, one day travelcard or saver ticket have the ability to buy
the ticket to use the service. *Otherwise you leave people in limbo
which is not acceptable when you have a penalty fares scheme.

The fact that off bus ticket sales are at very high levels courtesy of
Oyster is what means that usage of roadside machines is low. Please get
the concepts in the right order.

Indeed, I agree with all of that. Levels of usage are indeed low
(outside of the pay-before-you-board area), but people certainly do
use them. Bit of a shame that they no longer offer the one-day bus
pass, but of course that was because the product was withdrawn from
sale across the board. (An aside - I noticed that the Tramlink ticket
machines still offer printed weekly bus passes - don't think these are
still available anywhere else.)

Questions about debendification
 

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

No it wasn't a waste of money. If you think about the operating concept
then it is absolutely essential that passengers who do not have an
Oyster card, one day travelcard or saver ticket have the ability to buy
the ticket to use the service. Otherwise you leave people in limbo
which is not acceptable when you have a penalty fares scheme.


What would of been good was to retain the machines at busy places and fit
oyster pads to them to allow topup/balance check

Questions about debendification
 

On Nov 17, 8:55*pm, "Q" ..@.. wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote:

No it wasn't a waste of money. If you think about the operating concept
then it is absolutely essential that passengers who do not have an
Oyster card, one day travelcard or saver ticket have the ability to buy
the ticket to use the service. *Otherwise you leave people in limbo
which is not acceptable when you have a penalty fares scheme.

What would of been good was to retain the machines at busy places and fit
oyster pads to them to allow topup/balance check

That would be useful and of course it's hardly the first time it's
been suggested, but one should bear in mind the current machines are
little more than basic parking ticket machines.

Questions about debendification
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

On Nov 17, 8:55 pm, "Q" ..@.. wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote:

No it wasn't a waste of money. If you think about the operating concept
then it is absolutely essential that passengers who do not have an
Oyster card, one day travelcard or saver ticket have the ability to buy
the ticket to use the service. Otherwise you leave people in limbo
which is not acceptable when you have a penalty fares scheme.

What would of been good was to retain the machines at busy places and fit
oyster pads to them to allow topup/balance check

That would be useful and of course it's hardly the first time it's
been suggested, but one should bear in mind the current machines are
little more than basic parking ticket machines.


This is very true - maybe it's time to put buses 'online' then. They already
have the machines, the reader/writer pads etc.

There is already GPRS/3G and MPT1327 - any of those could provide a data
barer.

Questions about debendification
 

On Nov 18, 12:00*am, "Q" ..@.. wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

On Nov 17, 8:55 pm, "Q" ..@.. wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote:

No it wasn't a waste of money. If you think about the operating concept
then it is absolutely essential that passengers who do not have an
Oyster card, one day travelcard or saver ticket have the ability to buy
the ticket to use the service. Otherwise you leave people in limbo
which is not acceptable when you have a penalty fares scheme.

What would of been good was to retain the machines at busy places and fit
oyster pads to them to allow topup/balance check

That would be useful and of course it's hardly the first time it's
been suggested, but one should bear in mind the current machines are
little more than basic parking ticket machines.

(p.s. I didn't mean for the first half of that sentence to come across
in a dismissive way!)


This is very true - maybe it's time to put buses 'online' then. They already
have the machines, the reader/writer pads etc.

There is already GPRS/3G and MPT1327 - any of those could provide a data
barer.

I wouldn't back that at all - the massive benefit of Oyster w.r.t.
buses is quicker boarding (and it really is a benefit), so introducing
such transactions would negate that benefit, indeed it could really
slow things down.

Questions about debendification
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

On Nov 18, 12:00 am, "Q" ..@.. wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

On Nov 17, 8:55 pm, "Q" ..@.. wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote:

No it wasn't a waste of money. If you think about the operating
concept
then it is absolutely essential that passengers who do not have an
Oyster card, one day travelcard or saver ticket have the ability to
buy
the ticket to use the service. Otherwise you leave people in limbo
which is not acceptable when you have a penalty fares scheme.

What would of been good was to retain the machines at busy places and
fit
oyster pads to them to allow topup/balance check

That would be useful and of course it's hardly the first time it's
been suggested, but one should bear in mind the current machines are
little more than basic parking ticket machines.

(p.s. I didn't mean for the first half of that sentence to come across
in a dismissive way!)

That's OK - I know what you mean though.


This is very true - maybe it's time to put buses 'online' then. They
already
have the machines, the reader/writer pads etc.

There is already GPRS/3G and MPT1327 - any of those could provide a data
barer.

I wouldn't back that at all - the massive benefit of Oyster w.r.t.
buses is quicker boarding (and it really is a benefit), so introducing
such transactions would negate that benefit, indeed it could really
slow things down.

Maybe I gave the wrong impression - I'm not talking about top ups or
anything silly like that - I agree it would cause chaos and slow things down
to out of London cash speeds.

I was more thinking season ticket collection etc from the main machine - and
using the small reader pads ex bendy for things like credit checking in a
stand alone environment (as in the original thought with the machines above.

It would also save the entire driver code thing when there's a tube/DLR/tram
problem and people are pushed onto buses and get double charged etc.

You could install a proper TVM in a bus 'station' (Edmonton Green, Walthem
Cross type setup's) with out much overhead. There is already power, security
and data connections to those sites and a couple of machines would be very
very useful.

cynical mode
And just think - if buses went online TfL and anyone they 'sell' the data
too could have a whole set of new real-time metrics to report
against/use/abuse.
/cynical mode

Also my news reader is having a fit and not indenting past posts sometimes -
hopefully it wont get too messy.

Questions about debendification
 

On Nov 17, 6:42*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 06:46:30 -0800 (PST), George

wrote:
On Nov 13, 6:38*pm, (Roy Badami) wrote:
Thanks, Paul, very helpful.

Interesting (and slightly surprising) that they're removing pay as you
board from routes -- it seems a waste of resources to have to go
around removing perfectly good ticket machines.

Roy it was installing the ticket machines in the first place that was
a waste of money, hardly anybody uses them.

Hello George! *Another place for you to post.

No it wasn't a waste of money. If you think about the operating concept
then it is absolutely essential that passengers who do not have an
Oyster card, one day travelcard or saver ticket have the ability to buy
the ticket to use the service. *Otherwise you leave people in limbo
which is not acceptable when you have a penalty fares scheme.

The fact that off bus ticket sales are at very high levels courtesy of
Oyster is what means that usage of roadside machines is low. Please get
the concepts in the right order.
--
Paul C

Hello Paul, you never know where I might pop up from!

Yes I accept what you are saying but my point is the whole open
boarding system which includes the need for roadside machines is a
waste of money. Far easier that passengers pay the driver and don't
get me started on that ridiculous 'cashless zone' idea in Central
London! Occasionally somebody will buy a one day bus pass from the
machines but other than that they see very little use.

Questions about debendification
 

In article ,
Paul Corfield wrote:
Well you can, of course, choose to completely ignore the basis of the
business case for cashless boarding and the associated time savings for
passengers, reduced dwell times and other factors if you wish. Just
because you only assess things with the evidence of your eyes does not
make you correct and everybody else wrong.

On reflection, I can see the argument for the machines in the central
zone, where there will be many more tourists and other vistors from
out of town, but elsewhere it would probably have been adequate to let
the occasional cash customer purchase their ticket from the driver.
The price differential between cash and Oyster fares ensures that
Londoners will be using Oyster anyway.

-roy