On Dec 22, 10:15*am, Clive Page wrote:
In message
,
D7666 writes

No services can now call at City Thameslink because of treacherous
conditions.

I cannot imagine why they thought they had to close City Thameslink: it
is a station entirely underground, with both entrances well protected
from the weather beneath office blocks, one in a mini-shopping mall. The
message I saw claimed there was too much ice: I'd have thought that the
only place ice could form would be on the pavement outside the entrance.
Does anyone understand this at all? * It's particularly unfortunate to
close it, since Blackfriars is also closed, and Farringdon beset by
building works.

Assemble to following words in the correct order

capital
brewey
organise
connect
drinking
first
organise
a
can't
session
in

Very well put.

--
Clive Page

I apologise for the delayed arrival of this post.........

I can add a bit of back ground to Monday morning......... Core route
blocked Friday night (I assume 22.00 ish?) power off all weekend (3rd
rail) Herne Hill to Farringdon. switch it all on 50 + hours later and
watch the first train train up th bank into Blackfriars fail to gain
traction. Stick another 8 car on the back of that and the ice/snow
stops that one as well. Northbound train (05.09 ex Brighton I assume
was the first, it is normally) at around the same time struggles to
get anywhere near Elephant & Castle. Assist that with another 8 car,
well try to anyway. From what I overheard there were 4 traiins stuck
from start of service until well after 08.00 (I beleive it was more
like 09.00 but don't want to do a Kay Burley). A work colleauge was
getting regular updates from his wife on the Northbound Brighton which
ultimately got de iced by ground staff and got back to Herne Hill
where they got into London via SET to Victoria.

Net result core closed, side effect, City Thameslink hardly used
(if ?) at all......

Tuesday morning, run a through service. People get off (and on as
well ?) at City Thameslink and find a slippery surface - very very
slippry apparently. So slippery they had to close. Now whether this is
because three days have passed with no use and damp platforms froze,
or if there was another reason, I know not but it seemed to be closed
a very long time if it was just putting kill frost down. I know it's a
glossy tile surface so am guessing the dreaded terrazo ?


Richard

In message , Clive Page
writes

I cannot imagine why they thought they had to close City Thameslink: it
is a station entirely underground, with both entrances well protected
from the weather beneath office blocks, one in a mini-shopping mall.
The message I saw claimed there was too much ice: I'd have thought that
the only place ice could form would be on the pavement outside the
entrance. Does anyone understand this at all?

I wonder if the problem is the open-air section just south of City
Thameslink - there's a steep rising gradient on the approach to
Blackfriars.
--
Paul Terry

On Dec 22, 1:22*pm, Fat richard wrote:

I can add a bit of back ground to Monday morning......... Core route
blocked Friday night (I assume 22.00 ish?) power off all weekend (3rd
rail) Herne Hill to Farringdon. switch it all on 50 + hours later and
watch the first train train up th bank into Blackfriars fail to gain
traction. Stick another 8 car on the back of that and the ice/snow
stops that one as well. Northbound train (05.09 ex Brighton I assume
was the first, it is normally) at around the same time struggles to
get anywhere near Elephant & Castle. Assist that with another 8 car,
well try to anyway. From what I overheard there were 4 traiins stuck
from start of service until well after 08.00 (I beleive it was more
like 09.00 but don't want to do a Kay Burley). A work colleauge was
getting regular updates from his wife on the Northbound Brighton which
ultimately got de iced by ground staff and got back to Herne Hill
where they got into London via SET to Victoria.

Thanks.

At least that makes sense after the chaos on Monday morning.

Tuesday morning, run a through service. People get off (and on as
well ?) at City Thameslink and find a slippery surface - very very
slippry apparently. So slippery they had to close. Now whether this is
because three days have passed with no use and damp platforms froze,
or if there was another reason, I know not but it seemed to be closed
a very long time if it was just putting kill frost down. I know it's a
glossy tile surface so am guessing the dreaded terrazo ?

Interesting.

One hopes now then they do somehting about not allowing a repeat
occurence.

I am wonder what happens over the xmas shutdown and service restart,
not just FCC TL but the whole network if weather carries on as it is.
At least I'm not back to work until Jan 4th.

--
Nick

Today, this morning, 48 h after ''problems'' started, 84 h after the
last snow fell in this area, and 36 h after the alleged emergency
service was put in place, I actually found this emergency service in
place and working and corresponding to what they were advertising in
their web updates.

With flexitime and avoiding the peaks I did on time Up 09:25 off LUT
to WHP, and Down on 16:05 off ZFD to LUT.

Up train barely half full, Down train ~3/4 full, perhaps people have
given up.

FCC TL are keeping the same basic 4 TPH emergency service in 23/12 and
24/12 according to their web site now, but I assume there will be a
further twiddling on 24/12 towards xmas run down.

EDIT QUOTE

Major disruption
Service update 22/23/24 December

Thameslink route

We are continuing to run a revised timetable. East Midlands Trains is
stopping its services at Bedford this morning and City Thameslink
station is open. Please check the Live train updates page before you
set out.

With Southeastern, we are operating a half hourly service between City
Thameslink and Sevenoaks via Catford leaving Sevenoaks at '02 & '32
and City Thameslink at '09 & '39.

....

Service update 23 and 24 December

Both the Thameslink and Great Northern routes will be running a
revised service in the two days before Christmas to reflect the recent
impact of the weather.

The timetable for Thursday can be found he Thameslink timetable and
Great Northern timetable.

END QUOTE


And I am still unable to find out exactly what the north of Thames
issue is.

I could guess NR want plain line running i.e. no use of points so no
turnbacks at Luton or St.Albans nor FL/SL switching, but that don't
explain why just 4 TPH nor the stopping pattern they are using.

Or maybe the is an OLE speed limit, but that again don't imply the 4
TPH pattern.

--
Nick

On Dec 22, 8:13*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Wed, 22 Dec 2010 10:43:04 -0800 (PST), D7666
wrote:

Today, this morning, 48 h after ''problems'' started, 84 h after the
last snow fell in this area, and 36 h after the alleged emergency
service was put in place, I actually found this emergency service in
place and working and corresponding to what they were advertising in
their web updates.

[snip]

And I am still unable to find out exactly what the north of Thames
issue is.

I could guess NR want plain line running i.e. no use of points so no
turnbacks at Luton or St.Albans nor FL/SL switching, but that don't
explain why just 4 TPH nor the stopping pattern they are using.

Or maybe the is an OLE speed limit, but that again don't imply the 4
TPH pattern.

You have to worry what on earth will happen to the Thameslink service
when it is finally upgraded and linked to the GN and a much wider set of
destinations. The current set up seems incapable of surviving any real
level of disruption either from the weather or from railway induced
failings (track, wires, rolling stock etc).

Reading some of the earlier posts and what apparently "failed" you have
to wonder about the combined planning and contingency skills of the
operator and Network Rail.

Given the proposed intensity of service and probably much more complex
rolling stock and lots of dips, tunnels and connections all over the
place I doubt the service would survive one snowflake falling out of sky
never mind real winter weather. *I know it's a long time until the
expanded service comes into use but I wonder if anyone is doing some
thinking and learning from recent failings so there might be something
more robust put in place in terms of the trains and infrastructure so
the service might be able to keep going in the event of serious
disruption.

When it works, Thameslink can be an amazingly useful service - I
should add that I'm looking at it in particular from a London 'metro'
perspective - but when something goes wrong, it all just seems to fall
apart. My normal advice to anyone is that at times like this (i.e.
anytime things are looking shaky), Thameslink is best avoided if
possible (particularly south of St Pancras - but as D7666/Nick says,
they can balls it up north of St P too).

I hope that things improve - I dunno if there's an attitude that the
Thameslink Programme works are somehow going to wave a magic wand and
make the TL route 'just work' after completion, but if so that'd be
just a little hopeful.

- Show quoted text -

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk...train-updates/

Does anybody here think this is helpful or user friendly ?

--
Nick

In message
,
D7666 writes
- Show quoted text -

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk...train-updates/

Does anybody here think this is helpful or user friendly ?

I don't think it is either. It shows every sign of having been
programmed by idiots, but we know that FCC seems to have a plentiful
supply of them on hand.

--
Clive Page

On Dec 22, 11:26*pm, Mizter T wrote:

When it works,

Key words those.

Thameslink can be an amazingly useful service - I
should add that I'm looking at it in particular from a London 'metro'
perspective - but when something goes wrong, it all just seems to fall
apart.

Exactly.

It now seems to go into total collapse at the slightest perturbation.
It does not seem to be able to sustain 10 TPH off peak in anything
less than perfect running in perfect weather when traincrew aren't in
need of half term or shopping or football days off en masse.

They've lost 4 points of resilience - Moorgate, St.Pancras HL,
Blackfriars bays and Farringdon crossover, so thare are no system
failed chageover bolt holes - I know all that and know the reason why
- but they have gained other resilience that the previous incumbent
did not have i.e. extra platforms with both way reversibility, at
Kentish Town, SPILL crossover and reversibility from the north, and
Herne Hill turnback. and AC wires to City (SB only at the moment).

How this route is ever going to sustain 24 TPH with a 16:8 split over
the junction at SPILL I do not know. No amount of ATO or dwell
management is ever going to work if perturbations on the network as a
whole cause deck of cards type collapse like we have had for the past
2 years now AND they don't put more effort (i.e. more crew) into
mitigating delays with these continuous tight traincrew turnarounds.

--
Nick

D7666 wrote:
On Dec 22, 11:26*pm, Mizter T wrote:

When it works,

Key words those.

Thameslink can be an amazingly useful service - I
should add that I'm looking at it in particular from a London 'metro'
perspective - but when something goes wrong, it all just seems to fall
apart.

Exactly.

It now seems to go into total collapse at the slightest perturbation.
It does not seem to be able to sustain 10 TPH off peak in anything
less than perfect running in perfect weather when traincrew aren't in
need of half term or shopping or football days off en masse.

They've lost 4 points of resilience - Moorgate, St.Pancras HL,
Blackfriars bays and Farringdon crossover, so thare are no system
failed chageover bolt holes - I know all that and know the reason why
- but they have gained other resilience that the previous incumbent
did not have i.e. extra platforms with both way reversibility, at
Kentish Town, SPILL crossover and reversibility from the north, and
Herne Hill turnback. and AC wires to City (SB only at the moment).

How this route is ever going to sustain 24 TPH with a 16:8 split over
the junction at SPILL I do not know. No amount of ATO or dwell
management is ever going to work if perturbations on the network as a
whole cause deck of cards type collapse like we have had for the past
2 years now AND they don't put more effort (i.e. more crew) into
mitigating delays with these continuous tight traincrew turnarounds.


The problems can probably be cured, and 24 TPH is probably achievable,
but only with a different TOC.

First Group puts shareholder value above all else. As long as there
are no really serious (8 figure) financial penalties for a franchise
holder's non-performance, nothing is going to change and 24 TPH is
just a pipe dream.

First Group has a uniquely deep contempt for its paying customers.
That culture isn't ever going to change unless DfT Rail makes the sort
of threats that brought First Great Western to heel in similar
circumstances. Sadly, I see no sign of that happening with FCC.

On Dec 23, 6:32*pm, Bruce wrote:

Thameslink can be an amazingly useful

How this route is ever going to sustain 24 TPH

First Group puts shareholder value above all else. *As long as there
are no really serious (8 figure) financial penalties for a franchise
holder's non-performance, nothing is going to change and 24 TPH is
just a pipe dream. *
First Group has a uniquely deep contempt for its paying customers.
That culture isn't ever going to change unless DfT Rail makes the sort
of threats that brought First Great Western to heel in similar
circumstances. *Sadly, I see no sign of that happening with FCC.


heh )

I deliberately worded my comments in terms of route not TOC to prompt
response - but indeed your words are exactly what i really think about
it.

I do not know how First get away with what they do. Oh wait a minute
yes I do, we've had an election since the last riot where Adonis
threatened removing the TL/GN franchise form them - so its all been
forgotten.

I do not understand how the been getitng away with the 4 TPH for days
service. Oh. Yes I do. They blame limited service on Networkrail but I
suggest it is more than that - like they are using it to mask
traincrew shortage and/or pay less overtime in the xmas run up. GoVia
at least ran every 10 minutes emergency service, all trains all
station north of Thames, thats far far better for *all* passengers
than whats in place now.

As for PIS and web data ... don;t get me started ...

And there are still no paper timetables from 12.12.10 at most FCC
stations. Indeed, are there any ? I've not seen any yet, I've resorted
to printing out Table 52 pages from NRTT.

--
Nick