A good argument against the bendy bus
 

See:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979

Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable?

A good argument against the bendy bus
 

On Jan 5, 11:32*am, George wrote:
See:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979

Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable?

If that is the route 25 at Stratford video shot on Boxing Day then no
it is not really acceptable. The bit you conveniently miss is that
there was industrial action on the tube that day that caused such
excessive demand for buses to central London. As the 25 is the only
direct option from Stratford then I'd have to ask what else would be
expected? People will typically adopt a herd mentality and similar
scenes have been seen on other LUL strike days with double deckers
just as badly affected. I therefore fail to see the relevance of your
post title about it being "an argument" against bendy buses.

I have recently been to Hong Kong where I stood and watched one of the
highest demand locations for buses in the entire place during the PM
peak. This is Hung Hom in Kowloon near the Cross Harbour Tunnel. The
queues for buses stretch right along the bus stop area, up flights of
stairs, across a bridge and into the adjacent railway station. I stood
and observed people crushing into 12m double deck buses to the point
where people were jammed against the windscreen and people were jammed
against the front doors - when the driver could actually close them!
This was standard practice for bus after bus after bus and many routes
operate on higher frequencies than London. This "keep on loading"
attitude applied even when the next bus was clearly in sight and
waiting to get on the stop - if only the one that people were still
trying to get on would actually leave!

Ironically in one photo I took it is clear that "seats were available
on the upper deck" but even HK commuters don't always go upstairs.
Whether a bendy bus would be any better or worse I can't say. What I
can say is that double deckers - even very high capacity HK style ones
as often touted as the solution for route 25 - can be just as crowded
as your Stratford video. Therefore I don't see that one vehicle type
is necessarily any better than any other in such extreme
circumstances.

--
Paul C
via Google

A good argument against the bendy bus
 

On Jan 5, 11:32*am, George wrote:
See:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979

Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable?

You don't queue for a bendy bus. You can't as it has three doors.

A good argument against the bendy bus
 

On Jan 5, 1:04*pm, Offramp wrote:
On Jan 5, 11:32*am, George wrote:

See:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979

Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable?

You don't queue for a bendy bus. You can't as it has three doors.

I had to go from my house in Walthamstow to Waterloo on Boxing Day,
and it involved a creative use of bus routes in order to get the-

W15 to Bakers Arms
55 to Southampton Row
59 to Waterloo.

Advantage in using the 55 was that it starts from the Bakers Arms and
therefore I was able to get on. it got progressively more crowded, and
at Shoreditch someone tried to get on through the centre doors, saying
they had been waiting for over an hour and every bus was full. So
Yes, I agree that the video is not an argument against the bendy
buses.

However, the number of people on the bus was clearly in excess of
capacity, to dangerous limits. Suppose there had been an accident? I
remember being in a similar situation at Trafalgar Square in the early
hours of New Years day before the tube ran all night. The driver of
the bus (an N26) refused to move off and called the police, who
ordered several people, including me, off the bus.

I suppose it did not help that there were Engineering Works on the DLR
between Stratford and Bow Church on that day, otherwise people could
have used the DLR to get at least part of the way into London

That video was taken at Stratford Broadway if I am not mistaken. You
could have walked for a few stops in the opposite direction towards
Forest Gate in order to stand more of a chance of being able to
board..

However, it was interesting that a 425 drew up behind the bendy bus.

You could have got on the 425 to go to Bow Church to

(a) pick up the DLR or
(b) pick up the the no. 8 or 205 buses, both of which start from Bow
Church

Alternatively you could have stayed on the 425 to :-

(a) Homerton Hospital and then the 242

or (b) Clapton Pond and then the 38.

In London, it does pay to have alternative routes up your sleeve in
case the tube is disrupted.

A good argument against the bendy bus
 

I am no fan of bendybuses, but would put forward this appalling video
as much stronger evidence for banning Bob Crowe and his ilk!

M.M.

A good argument against the bendy bus
 

On Jan 5, 6:10*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 5 Jan 2011 05:39:38 -0800 (PST), Paul
wrote:

That video was taken at Stratford Broadway if I am not mistaken. You
could have walked for a few stops in the opposite direction towards
Forest Gate in order to stand more of a chance of being able to
board..

You are not mistaken - it's exactly where it is. You are also completely
correct that walking back a couple of stops might have afforded more
opportunity to board. However I repeat my earlier comment about herd
mentality. * The vast majority of people can only cope with one or
possibly two travel scenarios. As soon as something goes wrong with
their preferred option they are unable to function. *Whenever there is a
Victoria Line problem that knocks out the Walthamstow end you can
guarantee that almost everyone will just stand at the station for the
bus. Only very few people walk back one stop before the station to board
the 123 to Seven Sisters.

However, it was interesting that a 425 drew up behind the bendy bus.

You could have got on the 425 to go to Bow Church to

(a) pick up the DLR or
(b) pick up the the no. 8 or 205 buses, both of which start from Bow
Church

This is exactly what I thought when I saw the 425 behind. *I instantly
computed the 205 option but had assumed a change at Mile End as my brain
has not adjusted to it starting from Bow garage. *All of your options
are perfectly valid though.

In London, it does pay to have alternative routes up your sleeve in
case the tube is disrupted.

Absolutely - I have a load of them which I can switch between in order
to keep moving when the usual options fail for whatever reason.
Maintaining momentum is the thing that ensures you don't get cross when
the tube or the buses conk out.
--
Paul C

I can remember a couple of years ago when I was working in Docklands
and had to get to an office near South Quay. I arrived at Stratford at
8:10am to find that both the DLR and the Jubilee Line were suspended.
I got on the Central Line one stop to Mile End, and then the D6 bus.
This took 25 minutes, which is not much more than the end to end
journey on the DLR. Meanwhile colleagues at work were arriving at 10am
complaining that they were stuck at Stratford for an hour.

Returning to the original topic, I do think that the bendy bus was
dangerously overcrowded. I don't know that there is an easy answer -
the bus driver could have asked people to get off, but how many would
have complied?

A good argument against the bendy bus
 

On Wed, Jan 05, 2011 at 03:32:31AM -0800, George wrote:

See:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979
Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable?

No, people thinking that they need to travel on Boxing Day is not
acceptable. It's a bank holiday, so the vast majority don't need to go
to work, and anyone going shopping should be shot on general principles.

--
David Cantrell | top google result for "internet beard fetish club"

Longum iter est per praecepta, breve et efficax per exempla.

A good argument against the bendy bus
 

On Jan 5, 11:32*am, George wrote:
See:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979

Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable?

At least one "unacceptable" thing is the behaviour of those trying to
get on. No one is forcing all those people on to the bus: they are
forcing themselves. In similar circumstances, I tend to say "forget
it" and come to some other arrangement (walk, wait for next bus,
whatever). It's much less stressful and reduces the risk of not being
able to get out again at the correct stop!

PhilD

--

A good argument against the bendy bus
 

"George" wrote in message
news:1be74c41-8e52-4b14-b692-

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979

Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable?

I assume it's an American website, given their use of 'cockneys'.

Ian

A good argument against the bendy bus
 

On 5 Jan, 12:01, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Jan 5, 11:32*am, George wrote:

See:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979

Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable?

If that is the route 25 at Stratford video shot on Boxing Day then no
it is not really acceptable. The bit you conveniently miss is that
there was industrial action on the tube that day that caused such
excessive demand for buses to central London. *As the 25 is the only
direct option from Stratford then I'd have to ask what else would be
expected? *People will typically adopt a herd mentality and similar
scenes have been seen on other LUL strike days with double deckers
just as badly affected. I therefore fail to see the relevance of your
post title about it being "an argument" against bendy buses.

I have recently been to Hong Kong where I stood and watched one of the
highest demand locations for buses in the entire place during the PM
peak. This is Hung Hom in Kowloon near the Cross Harbour Tunnel. The
queues for buses stretch right along the bus stop area, up flights of
stairs, across a bridge and into the adjacent railway station. I stood
and observed people crushing into 12m double deck buses to the point
where people were jammed against the windscreen and people were jammed
against the front doors - when the driver could actually close them!
This was standard practice for bus after bus after bus and many routes
operate on higher frequencies than London. This "keep on loading"
attitude applied even when the next bus was clearly in sight and
waiting to get on the stop - if only the one that people were still
trying to get on would actually leave!

Ironically in one photo I took it is clear that "seats were available
on the upper deck" but even HK commuters don't always go upstairs.
Whether a bendy bus would be any better or worse I can't say. *What I
can say is that double deckers - even very high capacity HK style ones
as often touted as the solution for route 25 - can be just as crowded
as your Stratford video. *Therefore I don't see that one vehicle type
is necessarily any better than any other in such extreme
circumstances.

--
Paul C
via Google

Yes I appreciate that there was a tube strike and it was exceptional
circumstances however such scenes are not unheard of on the 25, and
other bendy bus routes, in normal circumstances.

At least on other buses there is some sort of order, the driver or
conductor has some sort of control over how many people try and get
on.

I would imagine the loads on the buses that you mention in Hong Kong
would seriously restrict the drivers visibility whilst driving and I
would imagine that, as with London, it is more a case of standing
passengers on the lower deck preventing other people from getting to
the staircase to go upstairs.

Oh well let's see whether the Borismaster offers any improvements when
it hits the streets.

A good argument against the bendy bus
 

On 6 Jan, 11:29, David Cantrell wrote:
On Wed, Jan 05, 2011 at 03:32:31AM -0800, George wrote:
See:
*http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979
Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable?

No, people thinking that they need to travel on Boxing Day is not
acceptable. *It's a bank holiday, so the vast majority don't need to go
to work, and anyone going shopping should be shot on general principles.

--
David Cantrell | top google result for "internet beard fetish club"

* Longum iter est per praecepta, breve et efficax per exempla.

Yes I must say that I cannot understand the mindset of people who want
to go shopping on Boxing Day. A German visitor that I spoke to said
the shops stay closed over there and people spend the day with family
or friends, no wonder they think the English are mad!!

A good argument against the bendy bus
 

"Ian F." wrote in message

"George" wrote in message
news:1be74c41-8e52-4b14-b692-

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979

Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable?

I assume it's an American website, given their use of 'cockneys'.

I think the title is provided by the person ("anglosaxonwarlord") who
posted the video, not the site's editor(s). And he's UK-based.

A good argument against the bendy bus
 

On Jan 6, 3:00*pm, George wrote:
On 5 Jan, 12:01, Paul Corfield wrote:





On Jan 5, 11:32*am, George wrote:

See:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979

Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable?

If that is the route 25 at Stratford video shot on Boxing Day then no
it is not really acceptable. The bit you conveniently miss is that
there was industrial action on the tube that day that caused such
excessive demand for buses to central London. *As the 25 is the only
direct option from Stratford then I'd have to ask what else would be
expected? *People will typically adopt a herd mentality and similar
scenes have been seen on other LUL strike days with double deckers
just as badly affected. I therefore fail to see the relevance of your
post title about it being "an argument" against bendy buses.

I have recently been to Hong Kong where I stood and watched one of the
highest demand locations for buses in the entire place during the PM
peak. This is Hung Hom in Kowloon near the Cross Harbour Tunnel. The
queues for buses stretch right along the bus stop area, up flights of
stairs, across a bridge and into the adjacent railway station. I stood
and observed people crushing into 12m double deck buses to the point
where people were jammed against the windscreen and people were jammed
against the front doors - when the driver could actually close them!
This was standard practice for bus after bus after bus and many routes
operate on higher frequencies than London. This "keep on loading"
attitude applied even when the next bus was clearly in sight and
waiting to get on the stop - if only the one that people were still
trying to get on would actually leave!

Ironically in one photo I took it is clear that "seats were available
on the upper deck" but even HK commuters don't always go upstairs.
Whether a bendy bus would be any better or worse I can't say. *What I
can say is that double deckers - even very high capacity HK style ones
as often touted as the solution for route 25 - can be just as crowded
as your Stratford video. *Therefore I don't see that one vehicle type
is necessarily any better than any other in such extreme
circumstances.

--
Paul C
via Google

Yes I appreciate that there was a tube strike and it was exceptional
circumstances however such scenes are not unheard of on the 25, and
other bendy bus routes, in normal circumstances.

At least on other buses there is some sort of order, the driver or
conductor has some sort of control over how many people try and get
on.

I would imagine the loads on the buses that you mention in Hong Kong
would seriously restrict the drivers visibility whilst driving and I
would imagine that, as with London, it is more a case of standing
passengers on the lower deck preventing other people from getting to
the staircase to go upstairs.

Oh well let's see whether the Borismaster offers any improvements when
it hits the streets.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Can't see that it has much to do with being a bendy bus - sounds more
like someone who has a grudge against them.

It appears that the new Borismaster will, in practice, allow boarding
through *all* 3 doors - so it won't be any different (the conductor/
PCSO etc will have little/no real control).

Robert

A good argument against the bendy bus
 

"Robert" wrote:
[snip]
It appears that the new Borismaster will, in practice, allow boarding
through *all* 3 doors - so it won't be any different (the conductor/
PCSO etc will have little/no real control).

Just to add, as yet it's not at all clear as to how the Borismaster will
work when in OPO mode (i.e. driver only) - the back door/platform seems as
though it'll only be on offer when there's a conductor/whatever on board,
but I wouldn't automatically assume that the bus will work on a
board-either-door basis (like the new non-bendy Citaros on the 'Red Arrow'
507/521 routes) as opposed to working in the conventional OPO manner of
board front door, exit from the middle.

A good argument against the bendy bus
 

Paul wrote:

Returning to the original topic, I do think that the bendy bus was
dangerously overcrowded. I don't know that there is an easy answer -
the bus driver could have asked people to get off, but how many would
have complied?

Very few. The indicators at bus stops on the 25 frequently bear no relation
to reality at all and few people will trust any announcement claiming
there'll be another one along very soon. And even if it did come along
there's no guarantee for sure the bus driver would actually stop - there are
many cases of bus drivers failing to stop at bus stops in the area despite
the bus having capacity.

A good argument against the bendy bus
 

PhilD wrote:

At least one "unacceptable" thing is the behaviour of those trying to
get on. No one is forcing all those people on to the bus: they are
forcing themselves. In similar circumstances, I tend to say "forget
it" and come to some other arrangement (walk, wait for next bus,
whatever). It's much less stressful and reduces the risk of not being
able to get out again at the correct stop!

It's standard practice in the area. The evening Shenfield Metro regularly
has a scrum to get on at Stratford, not helped by the appalling carriage
layout. Buses in the area have a reputation for not running to the stated
frequencies or even to the times announced on the indicators, whilst there
are also stories of drivers failing to stop at particular stops. It all
combines to discourage waiting for the next one.

A good argument against the bendy bus
 

On 6 Jan, 16:13, Robert wrote:
On Jan 6, 3:00*pm, George wrote:





On 5 Jan, 12:01, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Jan 5, 11:32*am, George wrote:

See:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979

Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable?

If that is the route 25 at Stratford video shot on Boxing Day then no
it is not really acceptable. The bit you conveniently miss is that
there was industrial action on the tube that day that caused such
excessive demand for buses to central London. *As the 25 is the only
direct option from Stratford then I'd have to ask what else would be
expected? *People will typically adopt a herd mentality and similar
scenes have been seen on other LUL strike days with double deckers
just as badly affected. I therefore fail to see the relevance of your
post title about it being "an argument" against bendy buses.

I have recently been to Hong Kong where I stood and watched one of the
highest demand locations for buses in the entire place during the PM
peak. This is Hung Hom in Kowloon near the Cross Harbour Tunnel. The
queues for buses stretch right along the bus stop area, up flights of
stairs, across a bridge and into the adjacent railway station. I stood
and observed people crushing into 12m double deck buses to the point
where people were jammed against the windscreen and people were jammed
against the front doors - when the driver could actually close them!
This was standard practice for bus after bus after bus and many routes
operate on higher frequencies than London. This "keep on loading"
attitude applied even when the next bus was clearly in sight and
waiting to get on the stop - if only the one that people were still
trying to get on would actually leave!

Ironically in one photo I took it is clear that "seats were available
on the upper deck" but even HK commuters don't always go upstairs.
Whether a bendy bus would be any better or worse I can't say. *What I
can say is that double deckers - even very high capacity HK style ones
as often touted as the solution for route 25 - can be just as crowded
as your Stratford video. *Therefore I don't see that one vehicle type
is necessarily any better than any other in such extreme
circumstances.

--
Paul C
via Google

Yes I appreciate that there was a tube strike and it was exceptional
circumstances however such scenes are not unheard of on the 25, and
other bendy bus routes, in normal circumstances.

At least on other buses there is some sort of order, the driver or
conductor has some sort of control over how many people try and get
on.

I would imagine the loads on the buses that you mention in Hong Kong
would seriously restrict the drivers visibility whilst driving and I
would imagine that, as with London, it is more a case of standing
passengers on the lower deck preventing other people from getting to
the staircase to go upstairs.

Oh well let's see whether the Borismaster offers any improvements when
it hits the streets.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Can't see that it has much to do with being a bendy bus - sounds more
like someone who has a grudge against them.

It appears that the new Borismaster will, in practice, allow boarding
through *all* 3 doors - so it won't be any different (the conductor/
PCSO etc will have little/no real control).

Robert- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Your first statement makes no sense whatsoever!

As for the Borismnaster, let's wait and see!

A good argument against the bendy bus
 

On 6 Jan, 18:16, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jan 2011 07:00:59 -0800 (PST), George





wrote:
On 5 Jan, 12:01, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Jan 5, 11:32 am, George wrote:

See:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979

Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable?

If that is the route 25 at Stratford video shot on Boxing Day then no
it is not really acceptable. The bit you conveniently miss is that
there was industrial action on the tube that day that caused such
excessive demand for buses to central London. As the 25 is the only
direct option from Stratford then I'd have to ask what else would be
expected? People will typically adopt a herd mentality and similar
scenes have been seen on other LUL strike days with double deckers
just as badly affected. I therefore fail to see the relevance of your
post title about it being "an argument" against bendy buses.

I have recently been to Hong Kong where I stood and watched one of the
highest demand locations for buses in the entire place during the PM
peak. This is Hung Hom in Kowloon near the Cross Harbour Tunnel. The
queues for buses stretch right along the bus stop area, up flights of
stairs, across a bridge and into the adjacent railway station. I stood
and observed people crushing into 12m double deck buses to the point
where people were jammed against the windscreen and people were jammed
against the front doors - when the driver could actually close them!
This was standard practice for bus after bus after bus and many routes
operate on higher frequencies than London. This "keep on loading"
attitude applied even when the next bus was clearly in sight and
waiting to get on the stop - if only the one that people were still
trying to get on would actually leave!

Ironically in one photo I took it is clear that "seats were available
on the upper deck" but even HK commuters don't always go upstairs.
Whether a bendy bus would be any better or worse I can't say. What I
can say is that double deckers - even very high capacity HK style ones
as often touted as the solution for route 25 - can be just as crowded
as your Stratford video. Therefore I don't see that one vehicle type
is necessarily any better than any other in such extreme
circumstances.

Yes I appreciate that there was a tube strike and it was exceptional
circumstances however such scenes are not unheard of on the 25, and
other bendy bus routes, in normal circumstances.

Please tell me how the exceptional circumstances that gave rise to the
video being filmed are also normal circumstances on the 25 and other
bendy routes?

Make your mind up George. *Why not simply say you hate bendy buses on
central London routes and then we all know where we stand. Dressing up
the same old issue under a new title won't help anyone.

****
Presumably somebody just had a camera/phone handy?

I don't use the word hate (that's for bitter and twisted people) but
like many others I do think open boarding bendy buses are totally
unsuitable for Central London.




At least on other buses there is some sort of order, the driver or
conductor has some sort of control over how many people try and get
on.

Sorry but this is simply not true. During strikes buses of all shapes
and sizes end up besieged with people pushing and shoving horrendously
and trying to board via the middle doors and the emergency exits. I've
seen it with my own eyes lots of times *in the suburbs*. *Most tube
strikes I try to avoid the central area but photos on Flickr plus
television and newspaper coverage provide plenty of evidence of what
transpires.

You get the siege mentality when buses are late. I've seen my fair share
of people refusing to stop boarding a bus when there's been a gap of
30-40 minutes.

****
Yes but the driver does have some control over the situation, with
uncontrolled boarding through three doors the driver has no control
whatsoever, the scenes in that footage are like something from a third
world country.




I would imagine the loads on the buses that you mention in Hong Kong
would seriously restrict the drivers visibility whilst driving and I
would imagine that, as with London, it is more a case of standing
passengers on the lower deck preventing other people from getting to
the staircase to go upstairs.

The simple fact is that those loads occur every single working day
because demand levels are so high despite big vehicles and high
frequencies. Drivers are used to driving buses under such crush
conditions. *HK buses are not fitted with "Bus Full" signs for no
reason.

Here is a photo of a full bus just to show you how busy they get - this
is not from my most recent trip. *What I witnessed this time was worse
than this photo.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2475974.../set-721576125...

To be fair to HK commuters they will typically search out every seat -
the example I quoted was a rare exception but you can see it on the
photograph. *I haven't put it on Flickr yet but I'll post the link when
I do.


****
Obviously potentially dangerous if the driver cannot see the kerb.



Oh well let's see whether the Borismaster offers any improvements when
it hits the streets.

Well we will have to see but I have my doubts as you know from many,
many exchanges in another place. *The real problem is that no one knows
how a Borismaster will work in practice in terms of doors, stairs,
platform, staffing and ticket / Oyster validation. *The mock up looks
remarkably like a bendy bus on the lower deck with validating devices by
every door. *That should be giving you the shakes already given it
rather implies open boarding which you don't believe works in a London
context ..... which is where we came in!
--
Paul C- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

****
I'm not entirely convinced about the Borismaster but we'll see.

A good argument against the bendy bus
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

It's standard practice in the area. The evening Shenfield Metro regularly
has a scrum to get on at Stratford, not helped by the appalling carriage
layout. Buses in the area have a reputation for not running to the stated
frequencies or even to the times announced on the indicators, whilst there
are also stories of drivers failing to stop at particular stops. It all
combines to discourage waiting for the next one.

All of this makes Stratford unique how? Sounds like the general
approach passengers take to getting on crowded trains anywhere in
London. I won't bore you with my experience of my local bus route when
it comes to divergence from the stated frequencies / timetable.

I've never seen or been in quite such an intense scrum on other lines at
peak hours. Maybe there are examples from exceptional circumstance days but
this is routine day in day out. One day there's going to be a serious
accident or worse.

And yes other buses may do similar but the advice to find an earlier bus
stop is contrary to most people's experience of buses on that route (and
maybe others). Many have found by bitter experience that the only places the
bus is guaranteed to stop at when busy are the big stops (e.g. Stratford
Broadway or Mile End) because there will always be someone wanting to get
off.