|
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
I believe some new arrangements were made regarding bus stops
recently, although there seems to be all sorts of confusion about what exactly these arrangements are. The problem of buses not stopping when they should (mainly a Central London problem) seems to be worse than ever, I was in Central London on Sunday and without particularly looking for such instances I saw three examples of buses not stopping at compulsory stops despite the fact that passengers were at the stop and clearly wished to board the bus in question. Unless anybody know otherwise the worst stop for this appears to be the n/b stop in Park Lane near Speakers Corner, buses towards Oxford Street need to move out into the outside lane and some drivers clearly think this is a good reason to miss out that stop. Oh well that's another e mail winging its way to TfL..................you never know I might actually get a reply before the month is out! |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
In message
, George writes I believe some new arrangements were made regarding bus stops recently, although there seems to be all sorts of confusion about what exactly these arrangements are. http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques..._at_compulsory I can hardly believe I've read it correctly, but it seems to say that TfL are standardizing on the "compulsory" flag, at which passengers must always request the bus to stop. "We did not publicise the change as research indicated that very few passengers would be changing their normal practice of hailing and ringing the bell." Presumably the research didn't include those I see on almost every bus journey who signal the bus too late (either with a V sign or an angry fist) as it sails straight pass compulsory bus stops where people obviously *were* waiting to board. -- Paul Terry |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
"We did not publicise the change as research indicated that very few
passengers would be changing their normal practice of hailing and ringing the bell." Thank you for explaining why the bus I was on yesterday did not stop where I wished to alight. It never occurred to me that the advice I recall being given on buses as a child in East London in the 1950s not to ring the bell [1] for a compulsory stop had changed. [1] The language of the clippies was rather more colourful and compelling. -- Robin PM may be sent to rbw0{at}hotmail{dot}com |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
In message , at 14:45:12 on Tue, 8
Mar 2011, Paul Terry remarked: I believe some new arrangements were made regarding bus stops recently, although there seems to be all sorts of confusion about what exactly these arrangements are. http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques..._at_compulsory I can hardly believe I've read it correctly, but it seems to say that TfL are standardizing on the "compulsory" flag, at which passengers must always request the bus to stop. No, it seems to be saying the driver must treat every stop as compulsory, unless convinced otherwise. In Geneva, all stops appear to be compulsory (and the bus does stop) even if there's no-one stood at it and the bus clearly has no passengers either standing or making their way to the door. This gets a bit tedious when the route is lightly loaded! -- Roland Perry |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
"Roland Perry" wrote: In message , at 14:45:12 on Tue, 8 Mar 2011, Paul Terry remarked: I believe some new arrangements were made regarding bus stops recently, although there seems to be all sorts of confusion about what exactly these arrangements are. http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques..._at_compulsory I can hardly believe I've read it correctly, but it seems to say that TfL are standardizing on the "compulsory" flag, at which passengers must always request the bus to stop. No, it seems to be saying the driver must treat every stop as compulsory, unless convinced otherwise. In Geneva, all stops appear to be compulsory (and the bus does stop) even if there's no-one stood at it and the bus clearly has no passengers either standing or making their way to the door. This gets a bit tedious when the route is lightly loaded! What a muddle. The one thing I'm definitely very much against is the bus having to stop at each and every stop regardless, i.e. like the Geneva situation you outline above - that'd just be utterly daft. My practice these days is to generally always hail the bus or ring the bell, though that said I don't think I ring the bell when the bus is approaching a major bus stop as I know it'll stop (though someone else will prob ring the bell anyway) - though if it was late (or v early) or the bus wasn't at all busy then I probably would ring the bell just to be sure (the old rule for night buses was that every stop was to be treated as a request stop). Likewise if I'm at a relatively busy bus stop and it's self evident that people want to get on the bus then I quite likely wouldn't hail it, though again it's quite likely someone would (albeit perhaps a 'half-hearted' hail, IYSWIM). Some clarity and passenger instruction / communication is needed, me thinks. |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
In message , at 15:33:30 on
Tue, 8 Mar 2011, Mizter T remarked: Some clarity and passenger instruction / communication is needed, me thinks. Nottingham buses have an illuminated sign near the driver which says "Stopping" if anyone has rung the bell. That way you can tell if anyone else has rung it before you. -- Roland Perry |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
"Roland Perry" wrote: In message , at 15:33:30 on Tue, 8 Mar 2011, Mizter T remarked: Some clarity and passenger instruction / communication is needed, me thinks. Nottingham buses have an illuminated sign near the driver which says "Stopping" if anyone has rung the bell. That way you can tell if anyone else has rung it before you. London buses have this too - it's now incorporated into the iBus information display. My comment was more just about how the present situation is a bit of an unclear muddle. (Though TBH I'd rather have this vague muddle than buses having to stop at each and every stop regardless.) |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
In message , at 20:18:31 on
Tue, 8 Mar 2011, Paul Corfield remarked: I have no idea how a driver can possibly tell that a passenger wishes to alight in they remain sit in their seat and provide no other indication of their intent. The buses I use have a bell-push within easy reach of just about every passenger's seat (OK you might have to get up, but you'd be making your way out anyway). -- Roland Perry |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
On Tue, 8 Mar 2011 16:58:53 -0000, "Mizter T"
wrote: London buses have this too - it's now incorporated into the iBus information display. People seem to think that it's an invitation to press the button again... My comment was more just about how the present situation is a bit of an unclear muddle. (Though TBH I'd rather have this vague muddle than buses having to stop at each and every stop regardless.) It seems to work quite well at the moment. Perhaps the answer *is* to quietly change the bus stop flags and let people get on with what they'd do anyway. Everywhere else I have travelled, a ding of the bell to get off is expected, at any stop. In London, it no longer does any harm. When getting on the bus, it's not so clear-cut. A Berlin bus driver once got quite irate at my wave. Nobody else minds. Perhaps a theatrical extraction of change or ticket, or lunge towards the bus stop pole is a compromise. Eye contact with the driver can work as well, and ensure a suitable position for the front doors, where that's the done thing. I wonder whether Roland's experience of Geneva was more about timetable adherence than any rules about stopping, at least that's what it seemed like to me when I was in Zurich. Richard. |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
Roland Perry wrote
In Geneva, all stops appear to be compulsory (and the bus does stop) even if there's no-one stood at it and the bus clearly has no passengers either standing or making their way to the door. This gets a bit tedious when the route is lightly loaded! One reason to ring the bell on country bus routes is that standing up or moving before the bus actually stops can be unsafe, especially if one is not very secure on ones feet. So expecting the driver to notice only works when the passenger feels it safe to move when the bus isn't stationary. -- Mike D |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
Paul Corfield wrote
Presumably the research didn't include those I see on almost every bus journey who signal the bus too late (either with a V sign or an angry fist) as it sails straight pass compulsory bus stops where people obviously *were* waiting to board. In such situations the driver is not conforming to the policy. Last month I had a 111 fail to stop in such a marked manner that the driver of the following 515 (non-TFL), which did stop on being hailed, asked if I disliked red buses -;) -- Mike D |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
In message , at 00:47:24 on
Wed, 9 Mar 2011, Richard remarked: London buses have this too - it's now incorporated into the iBus information display. People seem to think that it's an invitation to press the button again... Us Nottingham folk seem to be able to work out that if the sign is lit up there's no need to ring again. When getting on the bus, it's not so clear-cut. A Berlin bus driver once got quite irate at my wave. Nobody else minds. Perhaps a theatrical extraction of change or ticket, or lunge towards the bus stop pole is a compromise. Eye contact with the driver can work as well, and ensure a suitable position for the front doors, where that's the done thing. Again, here in Nottingham what people do is stick out an arm, and the bus puts on its left indicator - if it hasn't done so already as a result of dropping someone off. I wonder whether Roland's experience of Geneva was more about timetable adherence than any rules about stopping, at least that's what it seemed like to me when I was in Zurich. In off-peak periods there are a couple of places that my Nottingham buses are sometimes clearly waiting for the timetable to catch up, but the Geneva ones treat each bus stop the way you are supposed to approach a "Stop" road junction. ie come to a halt for a split second, then immediately move off (assuming its safe). Avoiding getting ahead of the timetable can be done by driving slower between stops. The roads there are clear enough (or there are bus priority measures) so there's little conflicting traffic to worry about most of the time. -- Roland Perry |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
In message 01cbdde1$8fc4a380$LocalHost@default, at 02:22:21 on Wed, 9
Mar 2011, Michael R N Dolbear remarked: One reason to ring the bell on country bus routes is that standing up or moving before the bus actually stops can be unsafe, especially if one is not very secure on ones feet. So expecting the driver to notice only works when the passenger feels it safe to move when the bus isn't stationary. That depends how far away the bells are. If this is an issue, then the buses here have about half the seats within reach of the bell without getting up. -- Roland Perry |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
This is the most recent response I have received (albeit almost two
years ago now) on this topic .... "Thank you for contacting London Buses, regarding a route 345 bus driver, who failed to stop for you at 0822 hours at the end of Coldharbour Lane, heading towards Camberwell on 17 March 2009. "All drivers trained by London General undergo a thorough and intensive training programme, which includes a strong emphasis on customer care. Carrying passengers to their destinations is, after all, the very nature of the service that we provide and we expect our staff to do so in a safe, courteous and caring manner. "During training, drivers are instructed to stop at all white compulsory stops and to be fully alert and aware of passengers wishing to board at red request stops. I am sorry you have had reason to report the contrary on this occasion." The implication appears to be that the distinction between compulsory and request stops remains, despite its absence from any TfL publicity. But there is clearly no enthusiasm from TfL to enforce it. Writing letters of complaint elicit a polite reply, like the one above, followed by an assurance that action has been taken, but nothing ever changes. peter |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
Presumably the research didn't include those I see on almost every bus
journey who signal the bus too late (either with a V sign or an angry fist) as it sails straight pass compulsory bus stops where people obviously *were* waiting to board. In such situations the driver is not conforming to the policy. It is common for the 410 not to stop at East Croydon northbound in the evening peak (and to a lesser extent at other locations at other times of day) despite there being waiting passengers, presumably because the driver believes the bus is full (although the waiting passengers can often see that actually it isn't, it is just crowded at the front). Once wonders what the policy is in that instance. I always hail buses and ring the bell if no one else has. However this is because I've long since lost confidence that drivers would actually stop at compulsory stops otherwise. I know I am by no means alone in doing this. It seems to me that to some extent TfL have changed the regulations to match the behaviour of passengers who were responding to the failure to adhere to the old regulations. I think it is actually perfectly reasonable to have just one type of bus stop and to request passengers indicate to the driver that they wish to board or alight. It would be a courtesy to their passengers to advise them what they policy now is, especially as those who are most familiar with the concept of compulsory and request stops are likely to have been using the bus services for the longest time. |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
On Mar 9, 10:53*pm, "Graham J" wrote:
Presumably the research didn't include those I see on almost every bus journey who signal the bus too late (either with a V sign or an angry fist) as it sails straight pass compulsory bus stops where people obviously *were* waiting to board. In such situations the driver is not conforming to the policy. It is common for the 410 not to stop at East Croydon northbound in the evening peak (and to a lesser extent at other locations at other times of day) despite there being waiting passengers, presumably because the driver believes the bus is full (although the waiting passengers can often see that actually it isn't, it is just crowded at the front). *Once wonders what the policy is in that instance. I always hail buses and ring the bell if no one else has. *However this is because I've long since lost confidence that drivers would actually stop at compulsory stops otherwise. *I know I am by no means alone in doing this. It seems to me that to some extent TfL have changed the regulations to match the behaviour of passengers who were responding to the failure to adhere to the old regulations. I think it is actually perfectly reasonable to have just one type of bus stop and to request passengers indicate to the driver that they wish to board or alight. *It would be a courtesy to their passengers to advise them what they policy now is, especially as those who are most familiar with the concept of compulsory and request stops are likely to have been using the bus services for the longest time. There seems to be a common misconception here that all bus drivers regard passengers as something other than a mere inconvenience in their plight to get from starting point to destination as quickly as possible, and with as few interruptions (i.e. passengers) as they possibly can. Inspectors are frequently of the same mindset: how else would they explain turning short two packed Northbound 295 buses at Fulham Brodway (Jerdan Place) on Tuesday morning at 8.30a.m., churning the passengers out onto a dangerously small pavement that was being dug up (the bus stop itself was actually fenced off for pavement works around it). The new T.F.L. regime quoted at the beginning of this threat is truly incredible, and shows that they regard passengers as mere cattle, like so many drivers. Why not just have a SIMPLE system: one design of bus stop, with "REQUEST" written on it, and make the SIMPLE rule that anyone wishing to board or alight the must hail the bus as it approaches or ring the bell, respectively? The "new" regime of "COMPULSORY" bus stops that are not compulsory is a recipe for confusion to all concerned! Only idiotically muddled thinking would suggest otherwise! And as for not actually publicising the change in regulations - that truly beggars belief, even for an organisation with such poor concept of "service" as T.F.L.! M.M. |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
In article ,
Graham J wrote: I think it is actually perfectly reasonable to have just one type of bus stop and to request passengers indicate to the driver that they wish to board or alight. That's how it's always worked outside London AFAIK (although the indication was often subtle in the case of boarding). As of a couple of years ago I do now usually put my arm out to hail a bus rather than just subtly looking like I want to board -- formerly (where I grew up in Greater Manchester and more recently in Cambridge) I perhaps took a half-step towards the curb and maybe made eye contact with the driver, and that was a normal way of indicating you wanted to board. (I'd also take a step *back* to indicate I didn't want to board, if it was the wrong bus). But as a result of being told off for signalling late in Cambridge a few years ago by an Eastern European bus driver who'd clearly failed to spot that I wanted to board until I stuck my arm out as a last resort, I reevaluated this. I know the latter is the normal way of hailing a bus in at least some parts of continental Europe so I can understand why some drivers from elsewhere in the EU may expect it, and it just seems simpler to go along with it since it's pretty unambiguous. In case I needed one, I got a reminder that you need to explicitly signal here in London, too, only a couple of weeks ago when a bus sailed past despite the fact that I thought I was looking like I wanted to board. I'm new to London, though - what was the traditional practice at request stops? Hold your arm out, or a more subtle indication? -roy |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
On 11/03/2011 00:00, Roy Badami wrote:
But as a result of being told off for signalling late in Cambridge a few years ago by an Eastern European bus driver who'd clearly failed to spot that I wanted to board until I stuck my arm out as a last resort, I reevaluated this. I know the latter is the normal way of hailing a bus in at least some parts of continental Europe so I can understand why some drivers from elsewhere in the EU may expect it, and it just seems simpler to go along with it since it's pretty unambiguous. Last year I had a bus driver in Germany get very rude in two languages because I had put my arm out. But with a bus every 30 min, at night in the rain, I didn't fancy the risk of it not stopping. admittedly she then had a go at another passsenger for something else, so it might have been just her! When I was little in Hull, ringing the bell to get off was considered what would now be called anti-social behaviour. You were supposed to go and stand by the door waiting to get off (no middle exit). -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
Arthur Figgis wrote on 11 March 2011
07:00:58 ... On 11/03/2011 00:00, Roy Badami wrote: But as a result of being told off for signalling late in Cambridge a few years ago by an Eastern European bus driver who'd clearly failed to spot that I wanted to board until I stuck my arm out as a last resort, I reevaluated this. I know the latter is the normal way of hailing a bus in at least some parts of continental Europe so I can understand why some drivers from elsewhere in the EU may expect it, and it just seems simpler to go along with it since it's pretty unambiguous. Last year I had a bus driver in Germany get very rude in two languages because I had put my arm out. But with a bus every 30 min, at night in the rain, I didn't fancy the risk of it not stopping. admittedly she then had a go at another passsenger for something else, so it might have been just her! When I was little in Hull, ringing the bell to get off was considered what would now be called anti-social behaviour. You were supposed to go and stand by the door waiting to get off (no middle exit). So, what was the bell for? -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
On 9 Mar, 08:42, peter wrote:
This is the most recent response I have received (albeit almost two years ago now) on this topic .... "Thank you for contacting London Buses, regarding a route 345 bus driver, who failed to stop for you at 0822 hours at the end of Coldharbour Lane, heading towards Camberwell on 17 March 2009. "All drivers trained by London General undergo a thorough and intensive training programme, which includes a strong emphasis on customer care. Carrying passengers to their destinations is, after all, the very nature of the service that we provide and we expect our staff to do so in a safe, courteous and caring manner. "During training, drivers are instructed to stop at all white compulsory stops and to be fully alert and aware of passengers wishing to board at red request stops. I am sorry you have had reason to report the contrary on this occasion." The implication appears to be that the distinction between compulsory and request stops remains, despite its absence from any TfL publicity. * But there is clearly no enthusiasm from TfL to enforce it. *Writing letters of complaint elicit a polite reply, like the one above, followed by an assurance that action has been taken, but nothing ever changes. peter That is the same reply I've had in the past and no doubt the one I'll get when this complaint eventually gets dealt with, but as you say nothing ever changes. In my experience the problem is far worse in Central London than in the suburbs although I don't know why that should be. Surely the rule should be that drivers should stop at all stops where passengers are waiting, and if in doubt stop anyway, and passengers should be required to press the bell for ALL stops. So nobody at or near the stop and no bell and the driver needn't stop. |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
On 2011\03\11 16:38, Ian Jelf wrote:
In message , Arthur Figgis writes When I was little in Hull, ringing the bell to get off was considered what would now be called anti-social behaviour. You were supposed to go and stand by the door waiting to get off (no middle exit). Yes, I remember in about 1980 being told off by the driver of a WMPTE Leyland National for ringing the bell when I wanted to get off. "You don't need to use that any more, "he told me "non now it's a One Man Bus". I resisted the temptation to tell him that the vehicle concerned had never been anything else....... I wonder why they didn't take the fuse out of the bells? |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
On 11/03/2011 09:23, Richard J. wrote:
Arthur Figgis wrote on 11 March 2011 When I was little in Hull, ringing the bell to get off was considered what would now be called anti-social behaviour. You were supposed to go and stand by the door waiting to get off (no middle exit). So, what was the bell for? Perhaps it was just cheaper to buy a bus with one than have it taken out/disabled? -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 15:33:30 on Tue, 8 Mar 2011, Mizter T remarked: Some clarity and passenger instruction / communication is needed, me thinks. Nottingham buses have an illuminated sign near the driver which says "Stopping" if anyone has rung the bell. Most new buses all over the world now have this. tim |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message o.uk... On 11/03/2011 09:23, Richard J. wrote: Arthur Figgis wrote on 11 March 2011 When I was little in Hull, ringing the bell to get off was considered what would now be called anti-social behaviour. You were supposed to go and stand by the door waiting to get off (no middle exit). So, what was the bell for? Perhaps it was just cheaper to buy a bus with one than have it taken out/disabled? I was on a bus in Poland and having looked everywhere for it I couldn't find a bell (push). I just had to hope that it stopped at the stop that I wanted (it did) tim |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
In message , at
18:56:27 on Fri, 11 Mar 2011, Arthur Figgis remarked: When I was little in Hull, ringing the bell to get off was considered what would now be called anti-social behaviour. You were supposed to go and stand by the door waiting to get off (no middle exit). So, what was the bell for? Perhaps it was just cheaper to buy a bus with one than have it taken out/disabled? But you couldn't call it a "disabled bell", because then people in wheelchairs would be pressing it all the time. -- Roland Perry |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
In article ,
Arthur Figgis wrote: Last year I had a bus driver in Germany get very rude in two languages because I had put my arm out. Interesting - I'd somehow thought Germany was a put-arm-out country. Maybe I'm wrong about the whole continental Europe thing then, I dunno now. When I was little in Hull, ringing the bell to get off was considered what would now be called anti-social behaviour. You were supposed to go and stand by the door waiting to get off (no middle exit). When I grew up in Greater Manchester that was normal practice. Ringing the bell was reserved for elderly people who didn't want to get up until the bus had stopped. -roy |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
|
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
On Wed, 16 Mar 2011, Richard wrote:
On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:49:12 -0600, (Roy Badami) wrote: In article , Arthur Figgis wrote: Last year I had a bus driver in Germany get very rude in two languages because I had put my arm out. Interesting - I'd somehow thought Germany was a put-arm-out country. Maybe I'm wrong about the whole continental Europe thing then, I dunno now. I wouldn't say that -- I think the "no arms" is particularly a German-speaking thing. Not since 1945. Look, someone had to say it, okay! tom -- Linux is like a FreeBSD fork maintained by 10 year old retards. -- Encyclopedia Dramatica |
Is it too much to expect buses to actually stop at bus stops?
In article ,
Richard wrote: On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:49:12 -0600, (Roy Badami) wrote: Interesting - I'd somehow thought Germany was a put-arm-out country. Maybe I'm wrong about the whole continental Europe thing then, I dunno now. I wouldn't say that -- I think the "no arms" is particularly a German-speaking thing. It's normal everywhere in France, and I've had no complaints elsewhere. I don't think it's a German-speaking thing. I was pretty sure putting ones arm out was normal in Austria, but will have to check now... -roy |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 12:54 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2006 LondonBanter.co.uk