Anger at Oyster cards 'rip-off' as millions hit for not 'touching out'

Pippa Crerar and Andy McCorkell
7 Jan 2011

http://tinyurl.com/oyster-touch

Commuters are facing a multi-million-pound Oyster card “rip-off� as
record numbers are overcharged for journeys.

Passengers will pay charges of at least £67 million this year partly
because rail bosses have either failed to install barriers or leave
the gates open.

Millions who do not touch in or out must pay a new penalty fare of
£6.50 — up more than eight per cent on last year. Campaigners accused
train companies of deliberately leaving ticket barriers open or not
installing them simply to boost profits.

The claim comes days after most London commuters were hit by fare
rises of up to 12.8 per cent on trains and an average seven per cent
on the Tube.

Val Shawcross, chairwoman of the Assembly's transport committee, said:
“It is absolutely shocking that passengers are being fleeced in this
way.�

Figures obtained by the Standard show that rail and Tube passengers
are already paying about £5 million a month in maximum fares for
journeys where their cards are not properly swiped.

The maximum penalty charged to each person has gone up from £6 to
£6.50 — meaning the total cost including fines could top £67.1 million
this year. This is up from £56.9 million last year. The penalty fare
is the equivalent of riding from central London to a zone six station
such as Heathrow, even if a traveller only goes a couple of stops
within zone one.

Transport for London, which revealed the figures in response to a
Freedom of Information request, pointed the finger of blame at train
companies. It said: “The number of maximum fares incurred on National
Rail is significantly higher than TfL services because a large number
of stations do not have ticket barriers to act as a physical reminder
to touch in and out.

“We continue to urge train operating companies to increase the number
of barriers on their stations.� The train companies keep cash from the
penalty fares incurred on their network — in part to cover the cost of
the ticket.

The firms said they would only install more gates at smaller London
stations if these “represented value for money�. The main stations
already have them.

A spokesman for the Association of Train Operating Companies said:
“Every overground station that is not gated has Oyster validators
located near entrances and exits.

“Also, prominent advertising and regular announcements in stations
stress the importance of touching in and out to avoid the maximum
fare.�

The train companies and TfL have set up a task force to investigate
the issue. But Lib-Dem Assembly member Caroline Pidgeon said: “TfL and
the train companies are simply profiting from passengers, in addition
to hiking fares.

“Finger-pointing helps no one. They need to be looking at what changes
are needed to minimise the chances of these penalties, for example by
installing more barriers at stations.�

In addition, the rail firms are under pressure to give passengers
better information on touching in and out — and what will happen if
they don't.

They have also faced criticism that barriers are often left open or
that swipe machines are not working.

Jo deBank, of the passenger group London TravelWatch, said: “TfL needs
to look into this properly and work with National Rail to solve this.

“Ultimately we would like to see all stations gated and staffed
wherever possible.�

She urged Oyster users to reclaim overcharged amounts. “A tiny
percentage of people bother to claim, which gives the companies little
incentive to sort it out,� she said.

A spokeswoman for TfL said: “Oyster customers who fail to touch in and
out correctly on National Rail or the London Underground are charged a
maximum fare.

“Any customer who believes that they have been incorrectly charged
should contact the Oyster helpline.

“Automatic refunds will be arranged by TfL for passengers who are
unable to touch in and out correctly due to service disruptions.�

Exclusive figures show that in the 11 months to November, passengers
failed to touch in or out at the start or end of a journey 13.2
million times. The penalty charges for the period came to a total of
£56.9 million.

====

"CJB" wrote in message
...

Passengers will pay charges of at least £67 million this year partly
because rail bosses have either failed to install barriers or leave
the gates open.

Or because passengers thought they'd just not touch out, hoping they'd save
some cash - and got caught out. But why post this this story again - it was
discussed first time round.

Or have you just been hit by a max cash fare yourself?

Paul S

Owain wrote

On Jun 20, 6:32*pm, CJB wrote:
.... But Lib-Dem Assembly member Caroline Pidgeon said: ...
They need to be looking at what changes
are needed to minimise the chances of these penalties, for example by
installing more barriers at stations.”

.. But the extra money raised would pay: "for more than 260 new buses
on
London’s streets, or fund the significant expansion of the cycle hire
scheme, or alternatively reduce fare rises.”

.. That would be a good thing wouldn't it?

.. She seemed quite keen when it came to embassies paying the
congestion
charge.
http://www.libdemvoice.org/unpaid-co...nd-fines-by-em
bassies-set-to-break-50m-barrier-22939.html


Which is a fine example of "I don't have any principle, they are
foreigners and we want their money".

A reasoned argument that the congestion charge isn't a tax would be
interesting (Embassies don't have to pay taxes).

I recall a Tory who argued that the Community charge aka "Poll Tax"
should be removed from the RPI "because, like income tax and unlike VAT
and rates, it was a direct tax,".

Which was a reasoned argument, if weird.

--
Mike D

On Jun 21, 4:12*pm, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

A reasoned argument that the congestion charge isn't a tax would be
interesting (Embassies don't have to pay taxes).

The one being used, which is debatable, is that it is a road toll,
which is a fee for using a road or roads, and not a tax.

Neil

On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 07:25:59 -0700 (PDT), Neil Williams
wrote:

On Jun 21, 4:12*pm, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

A reasoned argument that the congestion charge isn't a tax would be
interesting (Embassies don't have to pay taxes).

The one being used, which is debatable, is that it is a road toll,
which is a fee for using a road or roads, and not a tax.

Neil

The US embassy is relying on the statement made by Ken Livingston that
the congestion charge was a tax - he was so excited that he let his
mouth run away when the tax was first introduced
--
Cheers

Peter

(Reply to address is a spam trap - pse reply to the group)

Peter wrote
On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 07:25:59 -0700 (PDT), Neil Williams
wrote:

On Jun 21, 4:12*pm, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

A reasoned argument that the congestion charge isn't a tax would
be
interesting (Embassies don't have to pay taxes).

The one being used, which is debatable, is that it is a road toll,
which is a fee for using a road or roads, and not a tax.

The US embassy is relying on the statement made by Ken Livingston
that
the congestion charge was a tax - he was so excited that he let his
mouth run away when the tax was first introduced

Interesting.

Has anyone produced a reasoned argument about the difference between a
tax and a toll ?

--
Mike D

In message 01cc34f6$316c92e0$LocalHost@default, at 18:30:08 on Mon, 27
Jun 2011, Michael R N Dolbear remarked:
The US embassy is relying on the statement made by Ken Livingston
that the congestion charge was a tax - he was so excited that he let
mouth run away when the tax was first introduced

Interesting.

Has anyone produced a reasoned argument about the difference between a
tax and a toll ?

Tolls are rarely charged on routes you *have* to use, there's normally a
"long way round". Which doesn't exist for the US Embassy, being inside
the zone. So it's a lot more like car tax, than say the Dartford Toll.
Wouldn't they get a 90% residents' discount anyway?
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 08:12:49PM +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
In message 01cc34f6$316c92e0$LocalHost@default, at 18:30:08 on Mon, 27
Jun 2011, Michael R N Dolbear remarked:
Has anyone produced a reasoned argument about the difference between a
tax and a toll ?
Tolls are rarely charged on routes you *have* to use, there's normally a
"long way round". Which doesn't exist for the US Embassy, being inside
the zone. So it's a lot more like car tax, than say the Dartford Toll.

That's OK, there are exceptions to the "there's another way round"
argument, such as the Skye bridge, before it was nationalised.

--
David Cantrell | top google result for "internet beard fetish club"

Good advice is always certain to be ignored,
but that's no reason not to give it -- Agatha Christie

In message , at 15:06:26
on Wed, 29 Jun 2011, David Cantrell remarked:

Tolls are rarely charged on routes you *have* to use, there's normally a
"long way round". Which doesn't exist for the US Embassy, being inside
the zone. So it's a lot more like car tax, than say the Dartford Toll.

That's OK, there are exceptions to the "there's another way round"
argument, such as the Skye bridge, before it was nationalised.

That's one of the exceptions I had in mind when I typed 'normally'.

Although there was a "long way round" using ferries (eg from Mallaig).
I'm not sure ferries count as toll roads.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 03:30:02PM +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:06:26
on Wed, 29 Jun 2011, David Cantrell remarked:
Tolls are rarely charged on routes you *have* to use, there's normally a
"long way round". Which doesn't exist for the US Embassy, being inside
the zone. So it's a lot more like car tax, than say the Dartford Toll.
That's OK, there are exceptions to the "there's another way round"
argument, such as the Skye bridge, before it was nationalised.
That's one of the exceptions I had in mind when I typed 'normally'.
Although there was a "long way round" using ferries (eg from Mallaig).
I'm not sure ferries count as toll roads.

Well, you certainly have to pay for it, so it's still a charge to get
from A to B. And it's bloody expensive too - current fares are GBP21.20
for a car one way, *plus* GBP4.05 per person.

--
David Cantrell | Official London Perl Mongers Bad Influence

Seven o'clock in the morning is something that
happens to those less fortunate than me