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Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
Morning all,
There is an idea that trains could run from the Thameslink core to Cambridge, or at least on to some part of the Great Northern route, via a junction just north of St Pancras Low Level. What is the status of this idea? Is it a definite part of the Thameslink masterplan? Has it been scrapped? Was it never more than conjecture? Have i dreamed it up? In particular, i remember some work being done towards it as part of the CTRL 2 works at St Pancras - a short section of tunnel under the CTRL/NLL spaghetti junction, facing SPILL at one end and the GN at the other. Does that exist, or is this another flight of fancy on my part? Cheers, tom -- Axaxaxas Mlo |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
In message i, at
11:19:09 on Sat, 16 Jul 2011, Tom Anderson remarked: There is an idea that trains could run from the Thameslink core to Cambridge, or at least on to some part of the Great Northern route, via a junction just north of St Pancras Low Level. What is the status of this idea? Is it a definite part of the Thameslink masterplan? Has it been scrapped? Was it never more than conjecture? Have i dreamed it up? In particular, i remember some work being done towards it as part of the CTRL 2 works at St Pancras - a short section of tunnel under the CTRL/NLL spaghetti junction, facing SPILL at one end and the GN at the other. Does that exist, or is this another flight of fancy on my part? Yes, the tunnel exists (but no track yet). I think the plan is to increase the number of trains terminating at Welwyn Garden City and send all of those through Thameslink, then send the slower half of the Peterborough and Cambridge trains through as well. The remainder would continue to use Kings Cross. -- Roland Perry |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
On Jul 16, 11:19*am, Tom Anderson wrote: Morning all, There is an idea that trains could run from the Thameslink core to Cambridge, or at least on to some part of the Great Northern route, via a junction just north of St Pancras Low Level. What is the status of this idea? Is it a definite part of the Thameslink masterplan? Has it been scrapped? Was it never more than conjecture? Have i dreamed it up? In particular, i remember some work being done towards it as part of the CTRL 2 works at St Pancras - a short section of tunnel under the CTRL/NLL spaghetti junction, facing SPILL at one end and the GN at the other. Does that exist, or is this another flight of fancy on my part? Tunnels (plural) exist - you can see them from the far north end of the low-level Thameslink platforms at St Pancras. The bored tunnels become a cut-and-cover tunnel which then surfaces on the western side of the GN/ECML - you can just about catch a glimpse of the portal from passing trains on the GN/ECML or indeed from up on the CTRL, but you kinda need to know what you're looking for. It's also vaguely visible from York Way (the road) - where you're almost on the top of the portal - but it's rather concealed and again you really need to know what you're looking at (Bing Maps Bird's Eye view is useful here). Perfect day to go and have a look I reckon. |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
On Sat, 16 Jul 2011, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 11:19:09 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote: There is an idea that trains could run from the Thameslink core to Cambridge, or at least on to some part of the Great Northern route, via a junction just north of St Pancras Low Level. More than an idea. What is the status of this idea? Is it a definite part of the Thameslink masterplan? Yes it is part of Thameslink 3,100,125 (sorry couldn't resist) Has it been scrapped? Was it never more than conjecture? Have i dreamed it up? Not scrapped, it is more than conjecture. So do we have a date for when services might run? Re-reading the Wikipedia page, i see that they list the St Pancras works under KO2 [1]: New permanent way (track level, in this case including both plain rail and junctions) and overhead line equipment will be laid out in the new Canal Tunnels just north of St Pancras between the Thameslink route and the East Coast Main Line,[32] thereby opening up the Thameslink network to new destinations north of Central London. Which should finish in 2018. Would we expect service patterns to change immediately? Anyway, thanks for the responses, gents. tom [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thamesl...282013-2018.29 -- Anyone posting to usenet gives the entire world the opportunity to comment on them. The smart people try to post something smart. -- Arne Valhoj |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
th.li... Which should finish in 2018. Would we expect service patterns to change immediately? The most up to date info is in the draft London and South East RUS - which amongst other info about the ECML and Kings Cross services gives the Thameslink GN side as 8 tph, of which: 2 tph 12 car Peterborough 2 tph 12 car Cambridge 4 tph 8 car Welwyn GC all from 2018 Paul S |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
On Jul 16, 9:59*am, "Paul Scott"
wrote: "Tom Anderson" wrote in message th.li... Which should finish in 2018. Would we expect service patterns to change immediately? The most up to date info is in the draft London and South East RUS - which amongst other info about the ECML and Kings Cross services gives the Thameslink GN side as 8 tph, of which: 2 tph 12 car Peterborough 2 tph 12 car Cambridge 4 tph 8 car Welwyn GC all from 2018 To where will the Northern City trains run, post Thameslink. |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
On Jul 16, 6:30*pm, 1506 wrote:
On Jul 16, 9:59*am, "Paul Scott" wrote: "Tom Anderson" wrote in message rth.li... Which should finish in 2018. Would we expect service patterns to change immediately? The most up to date info is in the draft London and South East RUS - which amongst other info about the ECML and Kings Cross services gives the Thameslink GN side as 8 tph, of which: 2 tph 12 car Peterborough 2 tph 12 car Cambridge 4 tph 8 car Welwyn GC all from 2018 To where will the Northern City trains run, post Thameslink. Moorgate as they can't go anywhere else. :o) -- Nick |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
"1506" wrote in message
... On Jul 16, 9:59 am, "Paul Scott" wrote: The most up to date info is in the draft London and South East RUS - which amongst other info about the ECML and Kings Cross services gives the Thameslink GN side as 8 tph, of which: 2 tph 12 car Peterborough 2 tph 12 car Cambridge 4 tph 8 car Welwyn GC all from 2018 To where will the Northern City trains run, post Thameslink. 10 of 12 tph will be from the Hertford Loop: "Following completion of the Thameslink Programme it is likely that the current peak service into Moorgate will remain 12 trains per hour as today. However, several of the existing Welwyn Garden City to Moorgate/London King's Cross services are anticipated as being re-routed through the Thameslink core. Capacity is therefore freed up on the branch, enabling a frequency increase to 10 trains per hour on the Hertford Loop." Paul S |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
On Jul 16, 11:38*am, "Paul Scott"
wrote: "1506" wrote in message ... On Jul 16, 9:59 am, "Paul Scott" wrote: The most up to date info is in the draft London and South East RUS - which amongst other info about the ECML and Kings Cross services gives the Thameslink GN side as 8 tph, of which: 2 tph 12 car Peterborough 2 tph 12 car Cambridge 4 tph 8 car Welwyn GC all from 2018 To where will the Northern City trains run, post Thameslink. 10 of 12 tph will be from the Hertford Loop: "Following completion of the Thameslink Programme it is likely that the current peak service into Moorgate will remain 12 trains per hour as today. However, several of the existing Welwyn Garden City to Moorgate/London King's Cross services are anticipated as being re-routed through the Thameslink core. Capacity is therefore freed up on the branch, enabling a frequency increase to 10 trains per hour on the Hertford Loop." Thank you. Does that mean at times (Monday - Friday) the Hertford loop will be served exclusively from Moorgate? |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
"1506" wrote Thank you. Does that mean at times (Monday - Friday) the Hertford loop will be served exclusively from Moorgate? As is the case now. Peter |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
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Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
On Jul 16, 6:30*pm, 1506 wrote:
On Jul 16, 9:59*am, "Paul Scott" wrote: "Tom Anderson" wrote in message rth.li... Which should finish in 2018. Would we expect service patterns to change immediately? The most up to date info is in the draft London and South East RUS - which amongst other info about the ECML and Kings Cross services gives the Thameslink GN side as 8 tph, of which: 2 tph 12 car Peterborough 2 tph 12 car Cambridge 4 tph 8 car Welwyn GC all from 2018 To where will the Northern City trains run, post Thameslink.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - If it the case that all (or most) Moorgate trains will be Hertford Loop ones, (with WGC services going to Thameslink), I guess it could be because they would conveniently use the up 'goods' line from Alexandra P to F Pk which is planned to be converted for passenger trains use to provide extra capacity. With the upgraded track being on W side of current USL, presumably Hertford Loop trains would be able run from Alexandra P to N City branch without any conflict with ECML/WGC trains. |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
On Jul 17, 11:25*pm, Philip wrote:
On Jul 16, 6:30*pm, 1506 wrote: On Jul 16, 9:59*am, "Paul Scott" wrote: "Tom Anderson" wrote in message rth.li... Which should finish in 2018. Would we expect service patterns to change immediately? The most up to date info is in the draft London and South East RUS - which amongst other info about the ECML and Kings Cross services gives the Thameslink GN side as 8 tph, of which: 2 tph 12 car Peterborough 2 tph 12 car Cambridge 4 tph 8 car Welwyn GC all from 2018 To where will the Northern City trains run, post Thameslink.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - If it the case that all (or most) Moorgate trains will be Hertford Loop ones, (with WGC services going to Thameslink), I guess it could be because they would conveniently use the up 'goods' line from Alexandra P to F Pk which is planned to be converted for passenger trains use to provide extra capacity. *With the upgraded track being on W side of current USL, presumably Hertford Loop trains would be able run from Alexandra P to N City branch without any conflict with ECML/WGC trains. I was under the impression that both the up and down goods were being upgraded, these being on the "outside" of the existing lines...? (all still happily in the right places for conflict-free operation between the flyover at Ally Pally and the pair of diveunders at Finsbury Park, I might add). |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
"Jamie Thompson" wrote in message
... I was under the impression that both the up and down goods were being upgraded, these being on the "outside" of the existing lines...? (all still happily in the right places for conflict-free operation between the flyover at Ally Pally and the pair of diveunders at Finsbury Park, I might add). That's correct, however they are treated as two separate (but related) projects by NR, and each direction can stand alone - and I think one direction may have had a higher priority initially. However according to the most up to date enhancements plan they both now have the same start and completion dates, ie Jan 2012 - Dec 2013... Paul S |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
On Jul 18, 10:51*am, "Paul Scott"
wrote: "Jamie *Thompson" wrote in ... I was under the impression that both the up and down goods were being upgraded, these being on the "outside" of the existing lines...? (all still happily in the right places for conflict-free operation between the flyover at Ally Pally and the pair of diveunders at Finsbury Park, I might add). That's correct, however they are treated as two separate (but related) projects by NR, and each direction can stand alone - and I think one direction may have had a higher priority initially. However according to the most up to date enhancements plan they both now have the same start and *completion dates, ie Jan 2012 - Dec 2013... Will this allow the Moorgate to WGC service to operate completely independently from the KX/Thameslink trains. That is to say no shared track? If so, it would eliminate service polution issues. |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
On Jul 18, 10:51*am, "Paul Scott"
wrote: "Jamie *Thompson" wrote in ... I was under the impression that both the up and down goods were being upgraded, these being on the "outside" of the existing lines...? (all still happily in the right places for conflict-free operation between the flyover at Ally Pally and the pair of diveunders at Finsbury Park, I might add). That's correct, however they are treated as two separate (but related) projects by NR, and each direction can stand alone - and I think one direction may have had a higher priority initially. However according to the most up to date enhancements plan they both now have the same start and *completion dates, ie Jan 2012 - Dec 2013... Will this allow the Moorgate to Hertford North service to operate completely independently from the WGC to KX/Thameslink trains. That is to say no shared track? If so, it would eliminate service polution issues. |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
"1506" wrote in message ... On Jul 18, 10:51 am, "Paul Scott" wrote: That's correct, however they are treated as two separate (but related) projects by NR, and each direction can stand alone - and I think one direction may have had a higher priority initially. However according to the most up to date enhancements plan they both now have the same start and completion dates, ie Jan 2012 - Dec 2013... Will this allow the Moorgate to Hertford North service to operate completely independently from the WGC to KX/Thameslink trains. That is to say no shared track? If so, it would eliminate service polution issues. That's the published main purpose of the project, yes. The only downside is that they aren't initially intending to build additional platforms at the intermediate stations on the improved lines, at Harringay and Hornsey. That is a proposal for CP5. Paul S |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
Does it also mean that the big tube down to Moorgate would also have to be used at weekends? With a handy interchange at Highbury and Islington to the Overground lines I would have thought it might have been quite useful. |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
On Jul 18, 10:51*am, "Paul Scott"
wrote: "Jamie *Thompson" wrote in ... I was under the impression that both the up and down goods were being upgraded, these being on the "outside" of the existing lines...? (all still happily in the right places for conflict-free operation between the flyover at Ally Pally and the pair of diveunders at Finsbury Park, I might add). That's correct, however they are treated as two separate (but related) projects by NR, and each direction can stand alone - and I think one direction may have had a higher priority initially. However according to the most up to date enhancements plan they both now have the same start and *completion dates, ie Jan 2012 - Dec 2013... Paul S I actually meant the up upgraded line is on the east side not west side, but forgot that the down goods (on west side) was being upgraded too. So that would mean Moorgate/Hertford Loop services would be conflict-free of ECML USL and DSL and WGC services on both up & down between F Pk and Alexandra P. However I think there would likely to be movements from UFL at P Pk for FCC outers to stop USL rather than UFL platform thus providing more UFL capacity, then some ex-WGC trains may use the ex-goods new Hertford platform. Philip |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
"Paul Scott" wrote in message
... "Jamie Thompson" wrote in message ... I was under the impression that both the up and down goods were being upgraded, these being on the "outside" of the existing lines...? (all still happily in the right places for conflict-free operation between the flyover at Ally Pally and the pair of diveunders at Finsbury Park, I might add). That's correct, however they are treated as two separate (but related) projects by NR, and each direction can stand alone - and I think one direction may have had a higher priority initially. However according to the most up to date enhancements plan they both now have the same start and completion dates, ie Jan 2012 - Dec 2013... The down line is actually called the Down Slow 2 rather than the Down Goods and is already used by evening peak Hertford trains that do not stop at Harringay or Hornsey. Peter Smyth |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
On Jul 18, 6:12*pm, "Peter Smyth" wrote:
The down line is actually called the Down Slow 2 rather than the Down Goods and is already used by evening peak Hertford trains that do not stop at Harringay or Hornsey. So it is: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/documen...20Upda te.pdf ...which helpfully lists both: * Alexandria Palace - Finsbury Park 3rd Up line project : Additional southbound platforms at Alexandria Palace and Finsbury Park and conversion of goods line from Alexandria Palace to Finsbury Park to passenger status (target 2013) * Alexandria Palace - Finsbury Park Down Slow 2 upgrade : Provide increased linespeeds (target 2014) |
Whither Thameslink to Cambridge?
On 18/07/11 20:18, Jamie Thompson wrote:
On Jul 18, 6:12 pm, "Peter wrote: The down line is actually called the Down Slow 2 rather than the Down Goods and is already used by evening peak Hertford trains that do not stop at Harringay or Hornsey. So it is: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/documen...20Upda te.pdf ..which helpfully lists both: * Alexandria Palace - Finsbury Park 3rd Up line project : Additional southbound platforms at Alexandria Palace and Finsbury Park and conversion of goods line from Alexandria Palace to Finsbury Park to passenger status (target 2013) * Alexandria Palace - Finsbury Park Down Slow 2 upgrade : Provide increased linespeeds (target 2014) That's ALEXANDRA. -- Phil Liverpool, UK |
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