|
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
Hi all,
I have often seen footage of foreign crossroads with 2 diagonal pedestrian crossings in addition to the 4 orthogonal crossings we usually have here in Britain. Today I found a crossroads with all six crossings just east of Burnt Oak tube station in Northwest London. According to the nearest person I could accost, it's been like that for about 2 or 3 years. Is this the only one in Britain? It seems to have been there too long to be a trial. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
John Rowland wrote:
Hi all, I have often seen footage of foreign crossroads with 2 diagonal pedestrian crossings in addition to the 4 orthogonal crossings we usually have here in Britain. Today I found a crossroads with all six crossings just east of Burnt Oak tube station in Northwest London. According to the nearest person I could accost, it's been like that for about 2 or 3 years. Is this the only one in Britain? It seems to have been there too long to be a trial. The big mystery is why so few crossings in London are marked like that. Space is such a constraint that most of London's signalled crossings use the Barnes Dance sequence UIVMM. |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"John Rowland" typed
Hi all, I have often seen footage of foreign crossroads with 2 diagonal pedestrian crossings in addition to the 4 orthogonal crossings we usually have here in Britain. Today I found a crossroads with all six crossings just east of Burnt Oak tube station in Northwest London. According to the nearest person I could accost, it's been like that for about 2 or 3 years. Is this the only one in Britain? It seems to have been there too long to be a trial. The junction of Watling Avenue, Orange Hill Road & Gervase Road, I presume. I think I've seen something similar in the north of England (possibly Leeds Briggate) BICBW. -- Helen D. Vecht: Edgware. |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"Aidan Stanger" wrote in message ... John Rowland wrote: Hi all, I have often seen footage of foreign crossroads with 2 diagonal pedestrian crossings in addition to the 4 orthogonal crossings we usually have here in Britain. Today I found a crossroads with all six crossings just east of Burnt Oak tube station in Northwest London. According to the nearest person I could accost, it's been like that for about 2 or 3 years. Is this the only one in Britain? It seems to have been there too long to be a trial. The big mystery is why so few crossings in London are marked like that. Space is such a constraint that most of London's signalled crossings use the Barnes Dance sequence UIVMM. I suspect the main constraint is that a diagonal crossing, being a greater distance, requires vehicle traffic to be stopped for longer than with an ordinary orthogonal crossing. So it's pedestrian convenience vs motorist convenience. PaulO |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"Paul Oter" wrote in message The big mystery is why so few crossings in London are marked like that. Space is such a constraint that most of London's signalled crossings use the Barnes Dance sequence UIVMM. I suspect the main constraint is that a diagonal crossing, being a greater distance, requires vehicle traffic to be stopped for longer than with an ordinary orthogonal crossing. So it's pedestrian convenience vs motorist convenience. More likely it costs a fiver more in paint -- r |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 09:47:35 -0000, "Paul Oter"
wrote: "Aidan Stanger" wrote in message The big mystery is why so few crossings in London are marked like that. Space is such a constraint that most of London's signalled crossings use the Barnes Dance sequence UIVMM. I suspect the main constraint is that a diagonal crossing, being a greater distance, requires vehicle traffic to be stopped for longer than with an ordinary orthogonal crossing. So it's pedestrian convenience vs motorist convenience. PaulO An optimal phasing for a number of pedestrians would surely depend on where pedestrians are trying to get to, and the relative numbers wanting to make a simple orthogonal move and those wanting a diagonal move? If all pedestrians wanted to end up on a diagonally opposite corner, then one diagonal move as opposed to two orthogonal moves would result in a shorter overall crossing time and obviously a shorter stopping time for motorists. It becomes more complex when a group of pedestrians want to undertake both types of crossing. Clearly there's a break even point somewhere which minimises the sum total of all pedestrian crossing movement times. The Japanese have a good example in central Tokyo which combines IIRC both types of crossing, and they know a thing or two about moving people around. OTOH, since it seems our local authorities are anti-car to a ridiculous extent, this is probably an academic discussion. :-) Rgds, |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
Helen Deborah Vecht wrote in message ...
"John Rowland" typed Hi all, I have often seen footage of foreign crossroads with 2 diagonal pedestrian crossings in addition to the 4 orthogonal crossings we usually have here in Britain. Today I found a crossroads with all six crossings just east of Burnt Oak tube station in Northwest London. According to the nearest person I could accost, it's been like that for about 2 or 3 years. Is this the only one in Britain? It seems to have been there too long to be a trial. The junction of Watling Avenue, Orange Hill Road & Gervase Road, I presume. I think I've seen something similar in the north of England (possibly Leeds Briggate) BICBW. There are a few more (can't remember where off-hand). One reason why they're not seen more often is that the diagonal crossing distance is longer, therefore more time has to be given for pedestrians to clear the crossing. I am aware of examples where a diagonal crossing has been considered but rejected because this additional crossing time would result in unacceptable traffic queues. Obviously this means the (orthagonal) pedestrian crossing route is longer - but who cares about them! |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:40:35 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote: Hi all, I have often seen footage of foreign crossroads with 2 diagonal pedestrian crossings in addition to the 4 orthogonal crossings we usually have here in Britain. Today I found a crossroads with all six crossings just east of Burnt Oak tube station in Northwest London. According to the nearest person I could accost, it's been like that for about 2 or 3 years. Is this the only one in Britain? It seems to have been there too long to be a trial. Its not unique. TfL introduced a similar one in Wandsworth about 2 years ago.... Tob. -- rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"Richard Buttrey" wrote in message ... On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 09:47:35 -0000, "Paul Oter" wrote: "Aidan Stanger" wrote in message The big mystery is why so few crossings in London are marked like that. Space is such a constraint that most of London's signalled crossings use the Barnes Dance sequence UIVMM. I suspect the main constraint is that a diagonal crossing, being a greater distance, requires vehicle traffic to be stopped for longer than with an ordinary orthogonal crossing. So it's pedestrian convenience vs motorist convenience. PaulO An optimal phasing for a number of pedestrians would surely depend on where pedestrians are trying to get to, and the relative numbers wanting to make a simple orthogonal move and those wanting a diagonal move? If all pedestrians wanted to end up on a diagonally opposite corner, then one diagonal move as opposed to two orthogonal moves would result in a shorter overall crossing time and obviously a shorter stopping time for motorists. That would be the case if the traffic planners calculated the length of the pedestrian phase on the basis of the time taken to cross two arms of the junction. In practice, they are likely to only consider the time taken to cross a single arm of the junction. PaulO |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"Paul Oter" typed
That would be the case if the traffic planners calculated the length of the pedestrian phase on the basis of the time taken to cross two arms of the junction. In practice, they are likely to only consider the time taken to cross a single arm of the junction. Too true :-( Then they totally redesign some junctions so that the pedestian has 3 or 4 arms to wait for & cross rather than one or two. Golders Green used to have an 'all red' phase when a fast pedestrian could safely do a diagonal flit. It is now a nightmare. -- Helen D. Vecht: Edgware. |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"John Rowland" wrote in message ... Hi all, I have often seen footage of foreign crossroads with 2 diagonal pedestrian crossings in addition to the 4 orthogonal crossings we usually have here in Britain. Today I found a crossroads with all six crossings just east of Burnt Oak tube station in Northwest London. According to the nearest person I could accost, it's been like that for about 2 or 3 years. Is this the only one in Britain? It seems to have been there too long to be a trial. Ah yes, a Barnes dance - named after NYC Traffic Commisioner Barnes, who was Commissioner during the 1940s. The Burnt Oak one was the second in Britain, I gather. There was an earlier one in Sussex somewhere. Half a century for ideas to cross the Atlantic (in either direction) is about par for the course, I suppose. The Burnt Oak barnes dance stated off as part of DfT (as it then wasn't) research project S205Q. "Junction Improvements for Vulnerable Road Users", project management by Faber Maunsell in St. Albans. Mysteriously there has never been a report of the research, and none is planned, although the research should long since have been completed. The most controversial junction "improvement" being researched was the idea of putting bike lanes round the edge of roundabouts. That's an obvious (to me) killer. If you are ever riding a bike round a roundabout, stay as far away from the bike lanes as possible. Jeremy Parker |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"Jeremy Parker" wrote in message The most controversial junction "improvement" being researched was the idea of putting bike lanes round the edge of roundabouts. That's an obvious (to me) killer. If you are ever riding a bike round a roundabout, stay as far away from the bike lanes as possible. This is used in residential areas in Holland, there is a kerb at the outer edge of the round-about, and then outside this is the bike lane, and the bikes have right of way over approaching vehicles on the roads. It's caught me out a few times, as a driver, but seems to work once you get used to it. -- r |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 17:12:05 -0000, "Jeremy Parker"
wrote: "John Rowland" wrote in message ... Hi all, I have often seen footage of foreign crossroads with 2 diagonal pedestrian crossings in addition to the 4 orthogonal crossings we usually have here in Britain. Today I found a crossroads with all six crossings just east of Burnt Oak tube station in Northwest London. According to the nearest person I could accost, it's been like that for about 2 or 3 years. Is this the only one in Britain? It seems to have been there too long to be a trial. Ah yes, a Barnes dance - named after NYC Traffic Commisioner Barnes, who was Commissioner during the 1940s. The Burnt Oak one was the second in Britain, I gather. There was an earlier one in Sussex somewhere. Half a century for ideas to cross the Atlantic (in either direction) is about par for the course, I suppose. The Burnt Oak barnes dance stated off as part of DfT (as it then wasn't) research project S205Q. "Junction Improvements for Vulnerable Road Users", project management by Faber Maunsell in St. Albans. Mysteriously there has never been a report of the research, and none is planned, although the research should long since have been completed. The most controversial junction "improvement" being researched was the idea of putting bike lanes round the edge of roundabouts. That's an obvious (to me) killer. If you are ever riding a bike round a roundabout, stay as far away from the bike lanes as possible. There's one of those in one of the roundabouts in Sturry Road (Canterbury) near PC World. It's a standard roundabout, but with a cycle lane. Odd to look at, as no cyclists would ever go that way :) --Nick. -- http://www.blackstar.co.uk/scp/id/what - Want DVDs/Games? Fax: +44 (0) 7974 984182 --- icq: 9235201 --- Hayn on dal |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
|
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
Robert Woolley wrote:
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:40:35 -0000, "John Rowland" I have often seen footage of foreign crossroads with 2 diagonal pedestrian crossings in addition to the 4 orthogonal crossings we usually have here in Britain. Today I found a crossroads with all six crossings just east of Burnt Oak tube station in Northwest London. According to the nearest person I could accost, it's been like that for about 2 or 3 years. Is this the only one in Britain? It seems to have been there too long to be a trial. Its not unique. TfL introduced a similar one in Wandsworth about 2 years ago.... From memory, there's one at the junction of Acton Lane and Winchester St., south of Acton High Street. Both roads are fairly narrow. It used to be possible to cross diagonally at the NE corner of Parliament Square, if you walked fast. Of course it was never marked - it's a long way. Don't know if it's still possible. Colin McKenzie |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
Richard Buttrey wrote in message . ..
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 09:47:35 -0000, "Paul Oter" wrote: "Aidan Stanger" wrote in message The big mystery is why so few crossings in London are marked like that. Space is such a constraint that most of London's signalled crossings use the Barnes Dance sequence UIVMM. I suspect the main constraint is that a diagonal crossing, being a greater distance, requires vehicle traffic to be stopped for longer than with an ordinary orthogonal crossing. So it's pedestrian convenience vs motorist convenience. PaulO An optimal phasing for a number of pedestrians would surely depend on where pedestrians are trying to get to, and the relative numbers wanting to make a simple orthogonal move and those wanting a diagonal move? If all pedestrians wanted to end up on a diagonally opposite corner, then one diagonal move as opposed to two orthogonal moves would result in a shorter overall crossing time and obviously a shorter stopping time for motorists. It becomes more complex when a group of pedestrians want to undertake both types of crossing. Clearly there's a break even point somewhere which minimises the sum total of all pedestrian crossing movement times. You would rarely, if ever, find a crossroads where all pedestrian desire-lines were diagonal. Even if the majority are there is nothing to be gained by preventing orthoganal crossing at the same time as diagonal, which seems to be what you are suggesting. |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"umpston" wrote in message om... I am aware of examples where a diagonal crossing has been considered but rejected because this additional crossing time would result in unacceptable traffic queues. Obviously this means the (orthagonal) pedestrian crossing route is longer - but who cares about them! The planners would appear to have cared about pedestrians because the considered the diagonal option. There are places where having traffic queuing at one set of lights will back up to the point where it interferes with other junctions. Which could then spread and help no-one. All junction timings are a balancing act, sometimes pedestrians are prioritised, other times road traffic. I'd prefer traffic and pedestrian flows to be optimised rather than dogmatically choosing one over the other. Dave. |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"Jeremy Parker" typed
The most controversial junction "improvement" being researched was the idea of putting bike lanes round the edge of roundabouts. That's an obvious (to me) killer. If you are ever riding a bike round a roundabout, stay as far away from the bike lanes as possible. Jeremy Parker There is a dreadful example of this in Burnt Oak barely 1/4 mile from the traffic lights at the othe end of Orange Hill Road :-( -- Helen D. Vecht: Edgware. |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"Dave Liney" wrote in message ...
"umpston" wrote in message om... I am aware of examples where a diagonal crossing has been considered but rejected because this additional crossing time would result in unacceptable traffic queues. Obviously this means the (orthagonal) pedestrian crossing route is longer - but who cares about them! The planners would appear to have cared about pedestrians because the considered the diagonal option. ..... and rejected it - in the case I was referring to There are places where having traffic queuing at one set of lights will back up to the point where it interferes with other junctions. Which could then spread and help no-one. All junction timings are a balancing act, sometimes pedestrians are prioritised, other times road traffic. I'd prefer traffic and pedestrian flows to be optimised rather than dogmatically choosing one over the other. I agree absolutely. Diagonal crossings are only likely to be feasible where either traffic is light enough or where the road is wide enough for multi-lane approaches long enough to reduce potential traffic queuing problems (generally the wider the approaches, the more vehicles will get through the junction in the same length of time). There is, of course, another trade-off here between the traffic queuing-time saved by having wider roads versus the additional time needed for pedestrians to cross them. Limited road-width is another reason why diagonal crossings are less likely to be found in this country. We tend to have narrower roads in our urban areas. |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
Jeremy Parker wrote:
Ah yes, a Barnes dance - named after NYC Traffic Commisioner Barnes, who was Commissioner during the 1940s. The Burnt Oak one was the second in Britain, I gather. There was an earlier one in Sussex somewhere. Half a century for ideas to cross the Atlantic (in either direction) is about par for the course, I suppose. There are hundreds of them already in London - it's just that most of them aren't marked as such and don't have a distinctive audible warning either. The Burnt Oak barnes dance stated off as part of DfT (as it then wasn't) research project S205Q. "Junction Improvements for Vulnerable Road Users", project management by Faber Maunsell in St. Albans. Mysteriously there has never been a report of the research, and none is planned, although the research should long since have been completed. The most controversial junction "improvement" being researched was the idea of putting bike lanes round the edge of roundabouts. That's an obvious (to me) killer. If you are ever riding a bike round a roundabout, stay as far away from the bike lanes as possible. One good idea the London Cycle Network designers had was to put bike lanes on the roads one street out from a roundabout where possible, thus avoiding the problem. |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 17:12:05 -0000, "Jeremy Parker"
wrote: The Burnt Oak barnes dance stated off as part of DfT (as it then wasn't) research project S205Q. "Junction Improvements for Vulnerable Road Users", project management by Faber Maunsell in St. Albans. Mysteriously there has never been a report of the research, and none is planned, although the research should long since have been completed. In St Albans, we have always crossed the main crossroads diagonally when necessary, without the benefit of any special markings or research reports. I wonder where Faber Maunsell got the idea from? -- Peter Lawrence |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
|
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
jasonr (Jason Rumney) @ f2s.com wrote:
(Aidan Stanger) writes: There are hundreds of them already in London - it's just that most of them aren't marked as such and don't have a distinctive audible warning either. I came across one the other day. Halfway across the road, I realised that the pedestrian signals were green in both directions and I could safely cross in one step instead of two. It is rather annoying that it wasn't more obvious when standing at the curb. Probably the time of the pedestrian phase is sufficient for an average/slowish walker to cross one of the marked crossings. Obviously if you walk briskly, you will be able to cover the longer diagonal distance in that time, but it would be even more annoying to slower walkers, if not dangerous, if the diagonal crossing was marked without the crossing times being extended. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"John Rowland" wrote in message ...
Hi all, I have often seen footage of foreign crossroads with 2 diagonal pedestrian crossings in addition to the 4 orthogonal crossings we usually have here in Britain. Today I found a crossroads with all six crossings just east of Burnt Oak tube station in Northwest London. According to the nearest person I could accost, it's been like that for about 2 or 3 years. Is this the only one in Britain? It seems to have been there too long to be a trial. There is a newish one in the Gorse Hill area of Swindon. The beepers, etc., stop when pedestrians are still in the middle of the road, which is a bit disconcerting at first. There is, though, a long pause before traffic is signalled off again. PhilD -- |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
jasonr (Jason Rumney) @ f2s.com wrote in message
... I came across one the other day. Halfway across the road, I realised that the pedestrian signals were green in both directions and I could safely cross in one step instead of two. It is rather annoying that it wasn't more obvious when standing at the curb. True - I've just noticed that we have one here in Balham, outside the LU/BR station! Never realised before reading this thread! Ian |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"Helen Deborah Vecht" wrote in message ... "Jeremy Parker" typed The most controversial junction "improvement" being researched was the idea of putting bike lanes round the edge of roundabouts. That's an obvious (to me) killer. If you are ever riding a bike round a roundabout, stay as far away from the bike lanes as possible. Jeremy Parker There is a dreadful example of this in Burnt Oak barely 1/4 mile from the traffic lights at the othe end of Orange Hill Road :-( -- Helen D. Vecht: Edgware. Ah yes. Bad as Barnet's bike laned roundabouts are, they used to be even worse. There used to be a "give way" sign painted on the bike lanes at each entering road. Thus a cyclist in the bike lane had to give way, but by moving a few inches to the right, out of the bike lane, the cyclist regained the normal right of way of all the other traffic. I mocked these roundabouts at one of the monthly meetings of the Barnet Cyclists Campaign, which was attended by one of Barnet's traffic bureaucrats. A few weeks later all the give way signs mysteriously vanished. However, on the Orange Hill/Deansbrook roundabout, that Helen refers to, something went wrong with the unpainting, leaving the right of way rules highly confused. It's been like that for several years now. Barnet council's cabinet member for transport, the ultimate Mr Toad, seems, alas, to be going back on his promise to remove all Barnet's bike lanes. There was a small section of bike lane removed from Finchley High Road which did get removed. The lane was no loss, but I did feel that the Barnet Cycling Campaign should have been notified when it vanished. It turns out that no notification was needed. Apparently what looked like a bike lane was not a bike lane at all. The lane had been installed under an experimental authorisation. Such things are only temporary - I think they last for six months. Nothing was done, though, to remove the paint at the end of the experimental period. What this implies about the legal situation when the paint was still there, I don't know. What the status is of Barnet's other lanes, I don't know. Whether something similar has happened elsewhere, I don't know. If you look at p75 of the highway Code, you will see that the triangular road sign with a picture of a bike on it is not a warning of possible bikes - you might get bikes on any road, and at the warning signs there are rarely any more bikes than anywhere else. Instead the sign is, legally, a warning of bike facilities. Given that all bike faciliities in Britain are designed by idiots, such a warning is an excellent idea. Jeremy Parker |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"Jeremy Parker" wrote in message
... Ah yes. Bad as Barnet's bike laned roundabouts are, they used to be even worse. Don't get me started on feckin' cyclists! Urrrggghhhhh!!!!! Ian |
Unique pedestrian crossing in Burnt Oak
"Ian F." wrote in message ...
"Jeremy Parker" wrote in message ... Ah yes. Bad as Barnet's bike laned roundabouts are, they used to be even worse. Don't get me started on feckin' cyclists! Urrrggghhhhh!!!!! Ian If you regard feckin' cyclists as an odious task, please don't start on it on my account... Adam... |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 03:58 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2006 LondonBanter.co.uk