Boxing Day Tube Strike - What A Surprise
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16174789

Also from the ASLEF website

"The union’s members working in London Underground have voted
overwhelmingly to take action on Boxing Day. The dispute concerns the
union’s insistence that the day must be covered by volunteers.

The union balloted its 2,200 Underground drivers and they returned a
92.3% vote in favour of action.

The whole dispute has been about seeking equitable quality time off
for our members but recognising those who do operate the service may
need to be incentivised.

The company is currently offering no additional payments for working
on Boxing Day. The union says its members may need ‘substantial
incentives’ to volunteer.

If the dispute is not resolved, the union intends to take further
action on 16 January and 3 and 13 February."


I wonder how much the threat of strike action is being used as a
negotiating tactic. After all, the dates in January and February are
not public holidays.

Boxing Day Tube Strike - What A Surprise
 

On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 04:37:41 -0800 (PST)
Paul wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16174789

Also from the ASLEF website

"The union=92s members working in London Underground have voted
overwhelmingly to take action on Boxing Day. The dispute concerns the
union=92s insistence that the day must be covered by volunteers.

In other news - Brainless union members shocked to discover that public
transport has to operate on some public holidays.

What next , NHS staff striking because some people are selfishly getting
ill on xmas day?

B2003

I've just heard someone from London Underground management counter this assertion with the following: the terms of employment and payment were substantially renegotiated a few years ago to incorporate all the bonuses, overtime payments etc. into a hugely increased basic salary. That is why tube drivers now earn so much.

Boxing Day Tube Strike - What A Surprise
 

On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 04:37:41 -0800 (PST), Paul
wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16174789

Also from the ASLEF website

"The union’s members working in London Underground have voted
overwhelmingly to take action on Boxing Day. The dispute concerns the
union’s insistence that the day must be covered by volunteers.

The union balloted its 2,200 Underground drivers and they returned a
92.3% vote in favour of action.

The whole dispute has been about seeking equitable quality time off
for our members but recognising those who do operate the service may
need to be incentivised.

The company is currently offering no additional payments for working
on Boxing Day. The union says its members may need ‘substantial
incentives’ to volunteer.

If the dispute is not resolved, the union intends to take further
action on 16 January and 3 and 13 February."


I wonder how much the threat of strike action is being used as a
negotiating tactic. After all, the dates in January and February are
not public holidays.

Should the management call their bluff and close the Underground for
the day? I am sure this would save a large sum of money and perhaps
assist with engineering. Loss of revenue would be limited because
some of the passengers must have season tickets and I don't expect
they could claim a refund, any more than claiming a refund for no
services on Christmas Day.

Boxing Day Tube Strike - What A Surprise
 

Should the management call their bluff and close the Underground for
the day? I am sure this would save a large sum of money and perhaps
assist with engineering. Loss of revenue would be limited because
some of the passengers must have season tickets and I don't expect
they could claim a refund, any more than claiming a refund for no
services on Christmas Day.

Have the TfL management, or any other's railway management, considered
calling for volunteers to be trained (and of course security, health etc
checked) as standby, volunteer drivers? I can see a host of problems
(sorry, "challenges") and expect there are many more I cannot see. But
I can also see (i) a lot of people queuing up to fulfil a childhood
dream and (ii) the prospect of a very big counterweight to the unions'
power.
--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

Boxing Day Tube Strike - What A Surprise
 

On Dec 14, 5:23*pm, Robin9 wrote:
Paul;125188 Wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16174789

The company is currently offering no additional payments for working
on Boxing Day. The union says its members may need ‘substantial
incentives’ to volunteer.

I've just heard someone from London Underground management counter this
assertion with the following: the terms of employment and payment were
substantially renegotiated a few years ago to incorporate all the
bonuses, overtime payments etc. into a hugely increased basic salary.
That is why tube drivers now earn so much.

--
Robin9

Tube drivers get roughly the same as other main line train drivers (in
London) who incidentally don't have to work boxing day. They were also
told that only a skeleton service crewed by volunteers would run in
boxing day. Now LUL wants a full Saturday service.

As for training up volunteers : do you mean actually putting them
through the whole drivers selection and procedure (which 90% fail) and
a full drivers course complete with exams on everything to do with the
railway including how to fix broken down trains, what to do in
degraded situations, how the signalling and power supply works etc etc
or (training a driver costs around 100k) or... Shall we just bung a
few volunteers with a tube driver and let em take the controls after a
few stations?

Boxing Day Tube Strike - What A Surprise
 

On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 00:23:46 -0800 (PST)
David B wrote:
Tube drivers get roughly the same as other main line train drivers (in
London) who incidentally don't have to work boxing day. They were also
told that only a skeleton service crewed by volunteers would run in
boxing day. Now LUL wants a full Saturday service.

And what? Which bit of the word "volunteer" are these numbnuts having a
problem with?

or (training a driver costs around 100k) or... Shall we just bung a
few volunteers with a tube driver and let em take the controls after a
few stations?

Given how useless drivers seem to be when there's a real problem would
anyone notice the difference? And on the automatic lines how hard can it
be to press a button. I suspect 90% fail because they're thick, not because
the job is hard. I've no doubt there are plenty of east europeans who would
work for half the wage and do a better job that the lazy, entitled idiots
who do it now.

B2003

Boxing Day Tube Strike - What A Surprise
 

On Dec 15, 10:02*am, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 00:23:46 -0800 (PST)

David B wrote:
Tube drivers get roughly the same as other main line train drivers (in
London) who incidentally don't have to work boxing day. They were also
told that only a skeleton service crewed by volunteers would run in
boxing day. Now LUL wants a full Saturday service.

And what? Which bit of the word "volunteer" are these numbnuts having a
problem with?

I think they are being made to work boxing day as if it were any other
ordinary day. Not voluntary.



or (training a driver costs around 100k) or... Shall we just bung a
few volunteers with a tube driver and let em take the controls after a
few stations?

Given how useless drivers seem to be when there's a real problem would
anyone notice the difference? And on the automatic lines how hard can it
be to press a button. I suspect 90% fail because they're thick, not because
the job is hard. I've no doubt there are plenty of east europeans who would
work for half the wage and do a better job that the lazy, entitled idiots
who do it now.

B2003

I'm a train driver. There's more to it than pressing a button even on
the automated lines. As said before exams have to be passed and
competences proven.

Boxing Day Tube Strike - What A Surprise
 

On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 02:31:11 -0800 (PST)
David B wrote:
On Dec 15, 10:02=A0am, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 00:23:46 -0800 (PST)

David B wrote:
Tube drivers get roughly the same as other main line train drivers (in
London) who incidentally don't have to work boxing day. They were also
told that only a skeleton service crewed by volunteers would run in
boxing day. Now LUL wants a full Saturday service.

And what? Which bit of the word "volunteer" are these numbnuts having a
problem with?

I think they are being made to work boxing day as if it were any other
ordinary day. Not voluntary.

Boo hoo.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16174789

"A spokesman said an agreement in 1992 specified drivers would earn about
£44,500, work a 35-hour week and have 43 days' leave.

As part of the agreement, Tube drivers have to work some public holidays,
including Boxing Day.

LU said it had reduced the number of drivers needed to work on Boxing Day after
Aslef raised the issue in 2010 and only a quarter of the 3,500 were needed on
the day. "

I'm a train driver. There's more to it than pressing a button even on
the automated lines. As said before exams have to be passed and
competences proven.

My mistake, you have to press a button then make sure you don't spill your
coffee on your paper as the train moves off.

You have to take a test and an exam to get a driving license but most muppets
manage it and I suspect driving a car is a damn site more complicated and
requires a lot more situation awareness than driving a train. I'm a bit
sick of hearing how complex it is to drive something that sits on rails and
only requires its speed to be controlled. Try telling a nurse on less than
half your salary how tough it is when she's been up all night looking after
a vomiting patient.

B2003

Boxing Day Tube Strike - What A Surprise
 

On Dec 15, 11:08*am, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 02:31:11 -0800 (PST)

David B wrote:
On Dec 15, 10:02=A0am, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 00:23:46 -0800 (PST)

David B wrote:
Tube drivers get roughly the same as other main line train drivers (in
London) who incidentally don't have to work boxing day. They were also
told that only a skeleton service crewed by volunteers would run in
boxing day. Now LUL wants a full Saturday service.

And what? Which bit of the word "volunteer" are these numbnuts having a
problem with?

I think they are being made to work boxing day as if it were any other
ordinary day. Not voluntary.

Boo hoo.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16174789

"A spokesman said an agreement in 1992 specified drivers would earn about
£44,500, work a 35-hour week and have 43 days' leave.

As part of the agreement, Tube drivers have to work some public holidays,
including Boxing Day.

LU said it had reduced the number of drivers needed to work on Boxing Day after
Aslef raised the issue in 2010 and only a quarter of the 3,500 were needed on
the day. "

I'm a train driver. There's more to it than pressing a button even on
the automated lines. As said before exams have to be passed and
competences proven.

My mistake, you have to press a button then make sure you don't spill your
coffee on your paper as the train moves off.

You have to take a test and an exam to get a driving license but most muppets
manage it and I suspect driving a car is a damn site more complicated and
requires a lot more situation awareness than driving a train. I'm a bit
sick of hearing how complex it is to drive something that sits on rails and
only requires its speed to be controlled. Try telling a nurse on less than
half your salary how tough it is when she's been up all night looking after
a vomiting patient.

B2003

And I'm sick of people telling us how easy our job is when they dont
have experience of both jobs. And no you can't compare a car and as
you don't drive both. I don't drive an automated train; I'm not a tube
driver. But I do hold a manual license to drive coaches so I know what
one is like compared with the other. You're right most muppets have a
driving license. But very few (around 18000 in this country) have a
license to drive trains.

Nurses deserve more pay. Why should GPs get over 100k when nurses get
a quarter that?

Boxing Day Tube Strike - What A Surprise
 

On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 03:31:37 -0800 (PST)
David B wrote:
And I'm sick of people telling us how easy our job is when they dont
have experience of both jobs. And no you can't compare a car and as
you don't drive both. I don't drive an automated train; I'm not a tube

So go on , tell us , whats so hard about driving a train?

Do you have to steer? No.
Do you have to judge other traffic and react accordingly? No.
Do you have to watch out for pedestrians? No.
Do you have to change gear? No.

On the tube they don't even have to worry about hitting anything because
it'll just trip if they go past a red signal.

Oh, but let be guess, you have to learn stopping distances so you don't
miss a station and "learn your route". Yeah, I bet that takes ****ing ages.

driver. But I do hold a manual license to drive coaches so I know what
one is like compared with the other. You're right most muppets have a

Are you seriously going to claim that driving a train is harder than driving
a bus?

Nurses deserve more pay. Why should GPs get over 100k when nurses get
a quarter that?

I don't think anyone will argue that nurses shouldn't be paid more. That
doesn't mean your exhorbitant salary is justified for your **** easy job.

B2003

Boxing Day Tube Strike - What A Surprise
 

In message
, at
03:31:37 on Thu, 15 Dec 2011, David B remarked:
Why should GPs get over 100k when nurses get a quarter that?

"Salaried GPs employed directly by PCTs earn between £53,781 to £81,158,
dependent on, among other factors, length of service and experience."

http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/details...lt.aspx?Id=553

Hospital doctors train for nine years, and when qualified earn from
£36,807.
--
Roland Perry

Boxing Day Tube Strike - What A Surprise
 

On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:58:04 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message
, at
03:31:37 on Thu, 15 Dec 2011, David B remarked:
Why should GPs get over 100k when nurses get a quarter that?

"Salaried GPs employed directly by PCTs earn between £53,781 to £81,158,
dependent on, among other factors, length of service and experience."

http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/details...lt.aspx?Id=553

Hospital doctors train for nine years, and when qualified earn from
£36,807.

Wow, didn't realise it was that low for junior doctors. But obviously having o
to look after and diagnose perhaps hundreds of patients in a week is as of
nothing compared to pressing a door close button every few minutes.

B2003

Boxing Day Tube Strike - What A Surprise
 

On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 04:37:41 -0800 (PST), Paul
uttered:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16174789

Also from the ASLEF website

"The union’s members working in London Underground have voted
overwhelmingly to take action on Boxing Day. The dispute concerns the
union’s insistence that the day must be covered by volunteers.

The union balloted its 2,200 Underground drivers and they returned a
92.3% vote in favour of action.

The whole dispute has been about seeking equitable quality time off
for our members but recognising those who do operate the service may
need to be incentivised.



What do RMT members get for working Boxing day?

Dave

Boxing Day Tube Strike - What A Surprise
 

On Dec 15, 11:46*am, wrote:
So go on , tell us , whats so hard about driving a train?

Do you have to steer? No.

Nope, not as such, but you have to know where you're going, knowing
your route inside out with all possible diversionary routes and be
able to stop and challenge a wrong routing if it happens. The
signallers make mistakes too!

Do you have to judge other traffic and react accordingly? No.

Yes you do, if you have a train in the section in front of you, you're
going to bloody well stop! You will react differently approaching a
double yellow, single yellow or red signal.

Do you have to watch out for pedestrians? No.

Yes you do, level crossings, trackside workers, station platforms,
depots, yards and sidings

Do you have to change gear? No.

Depending on weather conditions, fog, snow, heavy rain, you will use a
different traction power setting accordingly!

On the tube they don't even have to worry about hitting anything because
it'll just trip if they go past a red signal.

Oh they do have to worry about it, if they did keep doing that they
wouldn't have a job before too long!

It's not a simple case of "sitting on your arse pushing a button",
it's all the other stuff that comes with it, like remembering the
rules and regulations (which are complicated and sometimes confusing,
but has to be learnt). For example knowing the difference between
"Single Line Working" and "Working of a Single Line", also speed
restrictions, if your safety system's isolated (AWS/TPWS) you can only
travel at a maximum speed of 40mph, UNLESS you have a competent person
with you in which case you can travel at 60mph, UNLESS there's fog or
falling snow then you can only travel at 40mph, UNLESS you also have
another system isolated (DSD) in which case blah blah blah....it's not
straightforward at all! Go to http://www.rgsonline.co.uk and browse
the Modules, look for yourself what we have to learn.

There's also the family life aspect, the shift work can make you miss
your loved ones for more than a week, you come home as they're going
to work or vice versa, ending up tired after a week of early starts
(3am), yet trying to mainting 100% concentration for up to 9 and a
half hours after 6 days in a row. When I say 100% concentration I do
mean that, you can NOT switch off at all whilst driving. Anything that
happens on the railway at speed needs to be dealt with ASAP. If you're
trundling along at 90mph and see a cow on the track or a broken rail
or some idiot playing chicken, you have to be on the ball to stop or
minimise any incident as much as possible. It can be boring as well at
times, doing the same route back and forth, however, you still need to
maintain 100% concentration for the above reasons.

Boxing Day Tube Strike - What A Surprise
 

On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 16:52:57 -0800 (PST)
Joe wrote:
On Dec 15, 11:46=A0am, wrote:
So go on , tell us , whats so hard about driving a train?

Do you have to steer? No.

Nope, not as such, but you have to know where you're going, knowing
your route inside out with all possible diversionary routes and be
able to stop and challenge a wrong routing if it happens. The
signallers make mistakes too!

No doubt, but how is that any different to a car driver learning various routes
to work?

Do you have to judge other traffic and react accordingly? No.

Yes you do, if you have a train in the section in front of you, you're
going to bloody well stop! You will react differently approaching a
double yellow, single yellow or red signal.

So you see a yellow you slow, if you see a red you stop. Not rocket science.

Do you have to change gear? No.

Depending on weather conditions, fog, snow, heavy rain, you will use a
different traction power setting accordingly!

And hows that different to doing the same in a car?

It's not a simple case of "sitting on your arse pushing a button",

No, but neither is it the most complex job in the world either. Certainly
driving a tube train is NOT worth 50K, especially an automatic one.

There's also the family life aspect, the shift work can make you miss
your loved ones for more than a week, you come home as they're going
to work or vice versa, ending up tired after a week of early starts
(3am), yet trying to mainting 100% concentration for up to 9 and a

Plenty of people do shift work. They don't earn 50K.

happens on the railway at speed needs to be dealt with ASAP. If you're
trundling along at 90mph and see a cow on the track or a broken rail
or some idiot playing chicken, you have to be on the ball to stop or

If you doing 90mph in a train and there's an obstruction at any visible
distance ahead you're probably screwed so I can't see much point worrying
about it.

B2003

Boxing Day Tube Strike - What A Surprise
 

On 2011-12-16, d wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 16:52:57 -0800 (PST)
Joe wrote:
On Dec 15, 11:46=A0am, wrote:
So go on , tell us , whats so hard about driving a train?

Do you have to steer? No.

Nope, not as such, but you have to know where you're going, knowing
your route inside out with all possible diversionary routes and be
able to stop and challenge a wrong routing if it happens. The
signallers make mistakes too!

No doubt, but how is that any different to a car driver learning various
routes to work?

Very few car/truck drivers learn their regular routes to the extent that
train drivers have to. Just where to turn and a few tricks about lane
changes and visibility problems.

Do you have to judge other traffic and react accordingly? No.

Yes you do, if you have a train in the section in front of you, you're
going to bloody well stop! You will react differently approaching a
double yellow, single yellow or red signal.

So you see a yellow you slow, if you see a red you stop. Not rocket science.

Given the stopping distances of trains and their variations under
changes in weather or something that a car driver would consider
insignificant, and needing to know what speed to slow to, which is
different for the same type of signal in different locations, yes it is
just about a science, and requires a level of knowledge of the route
that almost no car drivers achieve.


Do you have to change gear? No.

Depending on weather conditions, fog, snow, heavy rain, you will use a
different traction power setting accordingly!

And hows that different to doing the same in a car?

Not much, but you were trying to make out that the train should be
easier.

It's not a simple case of "sitting on your arse pushing a button",

No, but neither is it the most complex job in the world either. Certainly
driving a tube train is NOT worth 50K, especially an automatic one.

There's also the family life aspect, the shift work can make you miss
your loved ones for more than a week, you come home as they're going
to work or vice versa, ending up tired after a week of early starts
(3am), yet trying to mainting 100% concentration for up to 9 and a

Plenty of people do shift work. They don't earn 50K.

Read the news stories on the current dispute, some of which point out
that the pay rose to this level to replace a complicated set of extra
payments (mostly fully justified). And is your idea of equitable pay
rates that everyone should be reduced to the lowest level?

happens on the railway at speed needs to be dealt with ASAP. If you're
trundling along at 90mph and see a cow on the track or a broken rail
or some idiot playing chicken, you have to be on the ball to stop or

If you doing 90mph in a train and there's an obstruction at any visible
distance ahead you're probably screwed so I can't see much point worrying
about it.

You may be going to hit it whatever you do, but depending what is is
there may be a whole variety of sensible responses.

But then you don't actually want to know do you? You'll just go on
making the same sorts of complaints without ever thinking about the
visible circumstances, let alone the hidden ones. And of course you do
your job perfectly all the time, and are paid exactly what it is worth,
and always will be, and you will always have a job. Rhubarb!!!

Eric

--
ms fnd in a lbry

Boxing Day Tube Strike - What A Surprise
 

On Fri, 16 Dec 2011 19:16:59 +0000
Eric wrote:
No doubt, but how is that any different to a car driver learning various
routes to work?

Very few car/truck drivers learn their regular routes to the extent that
train drivers have to. Just where to turn and a few tricks about lane
changes and visibility problems.

Am where the potholes are, where the speed cameras are, what are the alternative
routes if there's a traffic jam. Where are the shops along the way etc etc.
What does a train driver have to learn? Where the signals are and the speed
limits and .... anything else?

So you see a yellow you slow, if you see a red you stop. Not rocket science.

Given the stopping distances of trains and their variations under
changes in weather or something that a car driver would consider

The placing of the signals takes all that into account. Why do you think
there are yellow and double yellow in the first place?

payments (mostly fully justified). And is your idea of equitable pay
rates that everyone should be reduced to the lowest level?

No, but nor do I think the greedy *******s should be threatening a strike
for more money when they're already grossly overpaid for what they do.

If you doing 90mph in a train and there's an obstruction at any visible
distance ahead you're probably screwed so I can't see much point worrying
about it.

You may be going to hit it whatever you do, but depending what is is
there may be a whole variety of sensible responses.

Such as? What other options do you have after you put on the emergency brake?
Activate the secret levitation device so the train can jump over the obstacle?

But then you don't actually want to know do you? You'll just go on

Go on , tell us then.

visible circumstances, let alone the hidden ones. And of course you do
your job perfectly all the time, and are paid exactly what it is worth,
and always will be, and you will always have a job. Rhubarb!!!

I'm actually underpaid for what I do but its a recession so beggars etc...

B2003