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Northern Line worry
I have heard rumours from different sources that the Northern Line services
will remain as they are for a long time. There is no immediate plan to allow via Bank services from the High Barnet branch. Will this be another Mornington Crescent situation. |
Northern Line worry
"Anon" wrote in message ...
I have heard rumours from different sources that the Northern Line services will remain as they are for a long time. There is no immediate plan to allow via Bank services from the High Barnet branch. Will this be another Mornington Crescent situation. I wouldn't mind betting that LU prefer running the line in that configuration as it makes timetabling and train movements a whole lot more simple. There are effectively two lines operating that happen to converge at Camden Town. AFAIK High Barnet/Mill Hill East - Kennington Loop and Edgware - Morden work quite nicely independently. |
Northern Line worry
According to The Times this week, the Mayor told a meeting of the London
Assembly that 'normal' service on the Northern Line may never resume due to safety concerns about reintroducing the crossover of services at Camden Town. Don't know any details. "Corky" wrote in message om... "Anon" wrote in message ... I have heard rumours from different sources that the Northern Line services will remain as they are for a long time. There is no immediate plan to allow via Bank services from the High Barnet branch. Will this be another Mornington Crescent situation. I wouldn't mind betting that LU prefer running the line in that configuration as it makes timetabling and train movements a whole lot more simple. There are effectively two lines operating that happen to converge at Camden Town. AFAIK High Barnet/Mill Hill East - Kennington Loop and Edgware - Morden work quite nicely independently. |
Northern Line worry
"Tony Wilson" wrote in message ...
According to The Times this week, the Mayor told a meeting of the London Assembly that 'normal' service on the Northern Line may never resume due to safety concerns about reintroducing the crossover of services at Camden Town. Don't know any details. I've read rumours on this newsgroup that at one point TfL were seriously considering a permanent separation of the Northern Line, by modifying the track layout at Camden Town and effectively turning the Northern Line into a larger version of the fork seen on the in-stock line map on the Piccadilly Line. Is this still being considered? Brad |
Northern Line worry
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Northern Line worry
Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
(Corky)typed "Anon" wrote in message ... I have heard rumours from different sources that the Northern Line services will remain as they are for a long time. There is no immediate plan to allow via Bank services from the High Barnet branch. Will this be another Mornington Crescent situation. I wouldn't mind betting that LU prefer running the line in that configuration as it makes timetabling and train movements a whole lot more simple. There are effectively two lines operating that happen to converge at Camden Town. AFAIK High Barnet/Mill Hill East - Kennington Loop and Edgware - Morden work quite nicely independently. Not if you *need* a seat, as I do and get uncomfortable in crowds. Changing at Camden town is horrible and very crowded. It also seems like rather a waste of the expense and effort that went into connecting the two lines in the first place with the most versatile junction possible... -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 |
Northern Line worry
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Northern Line worry
"Sam Holloway" wrote in message
... Regardless of how well the trains run, there's a huge problem in that Camden Town platforms and interchanges are not up to coping with all the additional changing that's going on. I would have thought that would be a serious pressure to move back to the old system of working. Over time the number of people changing there would fall, as people reorganise their place of living and place of working around the new regime... -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
Northern Line worry
"John Rowland" wrote in message ... "Sam Holloway" wrote in message ... Regardless of how well the trains run, there's a huge problem in that Camden Town platforms and interchanges are not up to coping with all the additional changing that's going on. I would have thought that would be a serious pressure to move back to the old system of working. Over time the number of people changing there would fall, as people reorganise their place of living and place of working around the new regime... Are you seriously suggesting that no-one living on the Edgware branch wants to go to the West End, and that those on the High Barnet branch only want to go to the City? People don't arrange their lives around the through running of the Northern Line. Dave. |
Northern Line worry
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:59:24 -0000, "Dave Liney"
wrote: "John Rowland" wrote in message ... Over time the number of people changing there would fall, as people reorganise their place of living and place of working around the new regime... Are you seriously suggesting that no-one living on the Edgware branch wants to go to the West End, and that those on the High Barnet branch only want to go to the City? People don't arrange their lives around the through running of the Northern Line. Not in the short-term, no. But imagine the current service pattern became permanent. Newcomers and movers within the area evaluate their accommodation location based on many factors, a key one being ease of use of public transport. The turnaround of people's lives is sufficiently high that patterns would change as the months go on. You only need look at, for example, provincial towns and cities [1] where parking is difficult to see the exodus of shoppers to more convenient facilities. So as daft as it sounds, I think really do organise themselves around train service patterns! Sam [1] I'd cite Cambridge as an example (rather quiet on the run-up to Christmas) although I have no figures to back this up, and with many avid Cambridge readers to this ng, I suspect I'd be rather flamed. grin -- Sam Holloway, Cambridge |
Northern Line worry
"Dave Liney" typed
Are you seriously suggesting that no-one living on the Edgware branch wants to go to the West End, and that those on the High Barnet branch only want to go to the City? People don't arrange their lives around the through running of the Northern Line. Dave. Yebbut some of us learned to use the Vic Line to Oxford Circus after changing from Euston (Bank Branch). This is by far the quickest way to town from here (Burnt Oak) I'm not that far from the Jubilee Line, which I can use to go to Bond Street. People do learn other ways round the system, even if they do not move house. I still want my Charing Cross trains though... -- Helen D. Vecht: Edgware. |
Northern Line worry
Just a passer-by curious Hong-Konger's words:
I am always curious about why there's no lines like "Hyper Outer Circle" nowadays. Maybe linking up Finchley, Hendon, Neasden and reaching Willesden may be a funny idea after all. Helen Deborah Vecht wrote in message ... "Dave Liney" typed Are you seriously suggesting that no-one living on the Edgware branch wants to go to the West End, and that those on the High Barnet branch only want to go to the City? People don't arrange their lives around the through running of the Northern Line. Dave. Yebbut some of us learned to use the Vic Line to Oxford Circus after changing from Euston (Bank Branch). This is by far the quickest way to town from here (Burnt Oak) I'm not that far from the Jubilee Line, which I can use to go to Bond Street. People do learn other ways round the system, even if they do not move house. I still want my Charing Cross trains though... -- Helen D. Vecht: Edgware. |
Northern Line worry
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004, PS wrote:
I am always curious about why there's no lines like "Hyper Outer Circle" nowadays. Maybe linking up Finchley, Hendon, Neasden and reaching Willesden may be a funny idea after all. There is the North London Line, which runs from Richmind, via Acton, Willesden, Brondesbury, Hampstead, Kentish Town, Caledonian Road, Islington, Dalston, and Hackney to Stratford (with some trains going on via West Ham to Woolwich). It's a railway line rather than a tube line, so it isn't terribly well-known. it also has pretty infrequent services compared to the tube. However, there isn't a southern half to that circle; there are a couple of orbital lines in south London, but they don't join up (we'd need a rail link over or under the river somewhere in Greenwich or Woolwich, to get you from, say North Woolwich to Woolwich Dockyard, or Canning Town to, er, Maze Hill or something, and then some fairly unlikely junctions and rerouting in south London to join up at the other end). But it would be cool. tom -- Chance? Or sinister scientific conspiracy? |
Northern Line worry
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
... However, there isn't a southern half to that circle; there are a couple of orbital lines in south London, but they don't join up (we'd need a rail link over or under the river somewhere in Greenwich or Woolwich, to get you from, say North Woolwich to Woolwich Dockyard, or Canning Town to, er, Maze Hill or something, and then some fairly unlikely junctions and rerouting in south London to join up at the other end). But it would be cool. The junctions in South London already exist... either using the West London Line, or using the curve from Chiswick BR station to South Acton. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
Northern Line worry
"PS" wrote in message ...
Just a passer-by curious Hong-Konger's words: I am always curious about why there's no lines like "Hyper Outer Circle" nowadays. Maybe linking up Finchley, Hendon, Neasden and reaching Willesden may be a funny idea after all. Are you suggesting something like the Circle Line in Zones 3 and 4? Even though such a line would be completely impossible to do, I could see it running in a complete circle around London, starting at Richmond and passing through Wimbledon, Vauxhall, Surrey Quays, Mudchute, Canning Town, Barking, Leytonstone, Walthamstow Central, Wood Green, East Finchley, Brent Cross, Wembley Park, South Kenton, Alperton, and Hounslow Central, and eventually returning to Richmond. But it would be almost impossible to do. Helen Deborah Vecht wrote in message ... "Dave Liney" typed Are you seriously suggesting that no-one living on the Edgware branch wants to go to the West End, and that those on the High Barnet branch only want to go to the City? People don't arrange their lives around the through running of the Northern Line. Dave. Yebbut some of us learned to use the Vic Line to Oxford Circus after changing from Euston (Bank Branch). This is by far the quickest way to town from here (Burnt Oak) I'm not that far from the Jubilee Line, which I can use to go to Bond Street. People do learn other ways round the system, even if they do not move house. I still want my Charing Cross trains though... -- Helen D. Vecht: Edgware. |
Northern Line worry
TheOneKEA wrote:
"PS" wrote in message ... Just a passer-by curious Hong-Konger's words: I am always curious about why there's no lines like "Hyper Outer Circle" nowadays. Maybe linking up Finchley, Hendon, Neasden and reaching Willesden may be a funny idea after all. Are you suggesting something like the Circle Line in Zones 3 and 4? Even though such a line would be completely impossible to do, I could see it running in a complete circle around London, starting at Richmond and passing through Wimbledon, Vauxhall, Surrey Quays, Mudchute, Canning Town, Barking, Leytonstone, Walthamstow Central, Wood Green, East Finchley, Brent Cross, Wembley Park, South Kenton, Alperton, and Hounslow Central, and eventually returning to Richmond. But it would be almost impossible to do. Not at all... once the ELL extensions are complete (that is, of course, if they ever get started properly) then there will be an extremely easy route available via Canada Water, Hoxton, Highbury, Camden Road, West Hampstead, Willesden Jcn, Olympia, Clapham Jcn, Clapham High St, Queens Rd Peckham and back to Canada Water. There is a reverse at Clapham Junction. I doubt they'll ever actually run it as a full circle though. The ELLE service pattern already includes Clapham Jcn - Canada Water - Highbury. (I think the ELLE along with the NLL, WLL and Goblin are all meant to be combined into one Orbirail franchise in the future). -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 |
Northern Line worry
"John Rowland" wrote in message ...
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message ... However, there isn't a southern half to that circle; there are a couple of orbital lines in south London, but they don't join up (we'd need a rail link over or under the river somewhere in Greenwich or Woolwich, to get you from, say North Woolwich to Woolwich Dockyard, or Canning Town to, er, Maze Hill or something, and then some fairly unlikely junctions and rerouting in south London to join up at the other end). But it would be cool. Isn't the East London Line extension the first step towards realising this? If you want to find the vague plans google for "Orbirail".... |
Northern Line worry
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 13:38:49 +0000, Sam Holloway
wrote: So as daft as it sounds, I think really do organise themselves around train service patterns! When the work at Blackfriars for Thameslink started, I remember the Orpington Area Manager saying that it was going to be one of the biggest white elephants ever. That the number of people travelling from places like Catford or Croydon to Cricklewood or Mill Hill was miniscule. Then Thameslink became reality, people living in Catford found they *could* apply for a job in Mill Hill (and vice versa) and traffic rose beyond all expectations. So it's not daft, and you're right. -- Bill Hayles http://billnot.com |
Northern Line worry
Dave Arquati wrote in message ...
TheOneKEA wrote: "PS" wrote in message ... Just a passer-by curious Hong-Konger's words: I am always curious about why there's no lines like "Hyper Outer Circle" nowadays. Maybe linking up Finchley, Hendon, Neasden and reaching Willesden may be a funny idea after all. Are you suggesting something like the Circle Line in Zones 3 and 4? Even though such a line would be completely impossible to do, I could see it running in a complete circle around London, starting at Richmond and passing through Wimbledon, Vauxhall, Surrey Quays, Mudchute, Canning Town, Barking, Leytonstone, Walthamstow Central, Wood Green, East Finchley, Brent Cross, Wembley Park, South Kenton, Alperton, and Hounslow Central, and eventually returning to Richmond. But it would be almost impossible to do. Not at all... once the ELL extensions are complete (that is, of course, if they ever get started properly) then there will be an extremely easy route available via Canada Water, Hoxton, Highbury, Camden Road, West Hampstead, Willesden Jcn, Olympia, Clapham Jcn, Clapham High St, Queens Rd Peckham and back to Canada Water. There is a reverse at Clapham Junction. I doubt they'll ever actually run it as a full circle though. The ELLE service pattern already includes Clapham Jcn - Canada Water - Highbury. (I think the ELLE along with the NLL, WLL and Goblin are all meant to be combined into one Orbirail franchise in the future). Wow, interesting. It would be a great way to avoid Zone 1 during the rush hour, and it would be a godsend if the Olympics ever came to London. Once the East London line is connected to the old North London NR route, and services are running between Highbury & Islington thru Whitechapel to Canada Water and beyond, how much longer would it take for a Hyper Circle Line to appear? Brad |
Northern Line worry
TheOneKEA wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote in message ... TheOneKEA wrote: "PS" wrote in message ... Just a passer-by curious Hong-Konger's words: I am always curious about why there's no lines like "Hyper Outer Circle" nowadays. Maybe linking up Finchley, Hendon, Neasden and reaching Willesden may be a funny idea after all. Are you suggesting something like the Circle Line in Zones 3 and 4? Even though such a line would be completely impossible to do, I could see it running in a complete circle around London, starting at Richmond and passing through Wimbledon, Vauxhall, Surrey Quays, Mudchute, Canning Town, Barking, Leytonstone, Walthamstow Central, Wood Green, East Finchley, Brent Cross, Wembley Park, South Kenton, Alperton, and Hounslow Central, and eventually returning to Richmond. But it would be almost impossible to do. Not at all... once the ELL extensions are complete (that is, of course, if they ever get started properly) then there will be an extremely easy route available via Canada Water, Hoxton, Highbury, Camden Road, West Hampstead, Willesden Jcn, Olympia, Clapham Jcn, Clapham High St, Queens Rd Peckham and back to Canada Water. There is a reverse at Clapham Junction. I doubt they'll ever actually run it as a full circle though. The ELLE service pattern already includes Clapham Jcn - Canada Water - Highbury. (I think the ELLE along with the NLL, WLL and Goblin are all meant to be combined into one Orbirail franchise in the future). Wow, interesting. It would be a great way to avoid Zone 1 during the rush hour, and it would be a godsend if the Olympics ever came to London. In fact the powers that be believe that the Jubilee line will not be able to cope during the Olympics if the ELL extensions are not completed. Once the East London line is connected to the old North London NR route, and services are running between Highbury & Islington thru Whitechapel to Canada Water and beyond, how much longer would it take for a Hyper Circle Line to appear? Brad Once the ELL extensions are complete, the main obstacles to a full orbital service are to do with train pathing, i.e. trying to find room to fit orbital services between the passenger trains and large number of freight trains using both the NLL between Willesden and Highbury, and the WLL between Willesden and Clapham. Both these lines would require signalling upgrades and possibly extra tracks (although according to the Olympic bid, the current 4 trains per hour on the NLL will be increased to 10 tph, which must require these improvements anyway!) -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 |
Northern Line worry
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:59:24 -0000, "Dave Liney"
wrote: [northern line fixed service pattern] Are you seriously suggesting that no-one living on the Edgware branch wants to go to the West End, and that those on the High Barnet branch only want to go to the City? I doubt very much that is the suggestion. People don't arrange their lives around the through running of the Northern Line. But it was fascinating to watch how travel patterns did change when the Central Line was shut for weeks. First of all there was a massive shift to the obvious alternative routes such as the Victoria Line at Walthamstow. However over time the initial massive changes smoothed themselves out as people changed travel times, tried different options etc. My travel times moved by over 2 hours - to a much earlier arrival at work in order to avoid the worst delays. They haven't changed that much since - maybe by only 30 mins or so. I'd accept the Central Line closure is an extreme example and changes were partly dictated by the structure of the replacement bus services but it was nonetheless very interesting to observe if very irritating for all those who were inconvenienced. The opening of the Jubilee Line extension and its interchange options have also led to big changes in travel patterns in East London. Ditto for the Lewisham extension of the DLR. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Northern Line worry
TheOneKEA wrote in message
om... Dave Arquati wrote in message ... TheOneKEA wrote: "PS" wrote in message ... Just a passer-by curious Hong-Konger's words: I am always curious about why there's no lines like "Hyper Outer Circle" nowadays. Maybe linking up Finchley, Hendon, Neasden and reaching Willesden may be a funny idea after all. Are you suggesting something like the Circle Line in Zones 3 and 4? Even though such a line would be completely impossible to do, I could see it running in a complete circle around London, starting at Richmond and passing through Wimbledon, Vauxhall, Surrey Quays, Mudchute, Canning Town, Barking, Leytonstone, Walthamstow Central, Wood Green, East Finchley, Brent Cross, Wembley Park, South Kenton, Alperton, and Hounslow Central, and eventually returning to Richmond. But it would be almost impossible to do. Not at all... once the ELL extensions are complete (that is, of course, if they ever get started properly) then there will be an extremely easy route available via Canada Water, Hoxton, Highbury, Camden Road, West Hampstead, Willesden Jcn, Olympia, Clapham Jcn, Clapham High St, Queens Rd Peckham and back to Canada Water. There is a reverse at Clapham Junction. I doubt they'll ever actually run it as a full circle though. The ELLE service pattern already includes Clapham Jcn - Canada Water - Highbury. (I think the ELLE along with the NLL, WLL and Goblin are all meant to be combined into one Orbirail franchise in the future). Wow, interesting. It would be a great way to avoid Zone 1 during the rush hour, and it would be a godsend if the Olympics ever came to London. Actually I do have a friend who is studying in Middlesex University in London and he usually uses Northern Line to get to the city. However, he complained that the fare's far too high and I started to think is there any Londoners ever trying to commute between different places in zone 3 (or beyond) and MUST pass zone 1 due to insuffcient non-radial services. NLR could completely avoid zone 1, but if a even greater circle present, maybe one day these commuters are able to avoid zone 2 either! Just another foolish enough and curious question: If I want to get from Hammersmith to Willesden, can I avoid zone 1 by taking a bus or so? Of course I won't take H&C and change Bakerloo at Paddington (Too foolish for any transport enthusiasts even though they only had a glimpse on the London tube map) Once the East London line is connected to the old North London NR route, and services are running between Highbury & Islington thru Whitechapel to Canada Water and beyond, how much longer would it take for a Hyper Circle Line to appear? Brad Actually I have heard some services to Willesden using ELL, is that true? However, would the existing A-stock fleet enough for services on 2 big lines? And is the entire ELL would appear on a future tube map with both orange and outline (Network Rail lines) livery? |
Northern Line worry
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, PS wrote:
Actually I have heard some services to Willesden using ELL, is that true? However, would the existing A-stock fleet enough for services on 2 big lines? And is the entire ELL would appear on a future tube map with both orange and outline (Network Rail lines) livery? AFAIK, when the ELLE is finished, the line will be handed over to Network Rail and run as a normal railway line, like the NLL (ie badly!). On which point, which franchise would the ELL be part of? If it came into Silverlink's hands, they really could run trains from west London; NLL trains could turn off in Dalston and head south. tom -- No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. -- Heraclitus |
Northern Line worry
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