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Kings Cross - site visit
Part 2:
The pub and toilets beneath are landside - the plans issued last week suggest the toilets are accessible from the passage between Platforms 8&9 but that's not the case. That passage is blocked by some gates, although some workers who came past while I was there managed to open the gate with a well aimed kick. There's a temporary roped-off passageway between the original concourse to the new one. This bypasses the 'entry' gates to platforms 0-8 to the south, and is quite insecure (all you would need to do is duck under a rope). The main escalators from the NTH to the concourse are hidden round the back (by the outer wall) and I'm not surprised some people have failed to find them from the concourse. Those escalators are extremely disjoint from the ones up to the mezzanine. All the toilets are 30p (beneath the pub and at the southern end of the mezzanine), and I don't understand how the Prezzo bar complies with the law in this respect. The pub has its own free toilets on both floors. The pub claims to be the biggest on railway premises, and that may well be true. It has numerous rooms on two floors. There are views of both platforms 0-8 and 9-11 from the first floor (albeit to get near the windows you have to get past tables and chairs arranged against the wall), and views of the roof of platforms 9-11 from the second floor. The part of the second floor which might overlook 0-8 is the kitchen. Service in the pub is very slow, even with one bar person per customer. They seem to have managed to provide tills that require a dozen unfamiliar key-presses to log each drink, few of which can be served without a trip to the other end of the bar. If someone pays by card that adds another substantial delay. I didn't ask if they accepted "Paywave". If the pub does off-sales (it's licenced to apparently) then it wasn't clear they had anything other than bottled beer (which you'd have to ask them not to open I suppose). The bridge from the mezzanine to the main shed is not very obvious, and I would only expect regular travellers to know it was there. When I used the bridge the signs at the top of my trains platform 2/3 were blank, so you'd better remember which platform it was you were heading for. My train to Leeds was announced 12 minutes before departure. The escalator down to platform 8 was roped off (broken already?) so I went down in the lift (to nose around). To get back I waited until someone came down in the lift, then took it on the way up. When I arrived in the morning I noticed some stairs from platform 1 to the bridge with a sign claiming there was no access to other platforms. That's obviously false as if you went up the stairs you could then descend into any of the others in the main shed. As reported in another thread, the main departure board have a summary of "all arrivals" and "all departures", but fail to say which is which. The main concourse is helpfully large, and the retail is all around the edge so it's quite clean. Spoilt by most of the escalators (up and down) being hidden away. Standing in the middle of the concourse, it wasn't clear how to get to the mezzanine, there should be an escalator right there. -- Roland Perry |
Kings Cross - site visit
On 22/03/2012 20:21, Roland Perry wrote:
All the toilets are 30p (beneath the pub and at the southern end of the mezzanine), and I don't understand how the Prezzo bar complies with the law in this respect. The pub has its own free toilets on both floors. What law? There are lots stations with catering and only paid-for bogs, and others with catering and no bogs at all. I looked this up with regard to a then-new coffee place on West Croydon station, and it seemed that it is myth that toilets have to be provided where there is food and drink on sale, however local authorities can choose to require them. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Kings Cross - site visit
In message , at
20:41:09 on Thu, 22 Mar 2012, Arthur Figgis remarked: All the toilets are 30p (beneath the pub and at the southern end of the mezzanine), and I don't understand how the Prezzo bar complies with the law in this respect. The pub has its own free toilets on both floors. What law? There are lots stations with catering and only paid-for bogs, and others with catering and no bogs at all. I looked this up with regard to a then-new coffee place on West Croydon station, and it seemed that it is myth that toilets have to be provided where there is food and drink on sale, however local authorities can choose to require them. I'm fairly sure there's a law that says you must provide free toilets if you serve alcohol - and this has been floated as the reason why St Pancras toilets are free (the champagne bar etc). However I'm happy to revert to a legal newsgroup to discuss if this is an urban legend. -- Roland Perry |
Kings Cross - site visit
On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:15:06 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote: In message , at 20:41:09 on Thu, 22 Mar 2012, Arthur Figgis remarked: All the toilets are 30p (beneath the pub and at the southern end of the mezzanine), and I don't understand how the Prezzo bar complies with the law in this respect. The pub has its own free toilets on both floors. What law? There are lots stations with catering and only paid-for bogs, and others with catering and no bogs at all. I looked this up with regard to a then-new coffee place on West Croydon station, and it seemed that it is myth that toilets have to be provided where there is food and drink on sale, however local authorities can choose to require them. I'm fairly sure there's a law that says you must provide free toilets if you serve alcohol - and this has been floated as the reason why St Pancras toilets are free (the champagne bar etc). Maybe a standard planning requirement rather than something actually written into statute ? e.g. :- "The City Council has adopted a standard for the provision of sanitary accommodation in places to which the public resort which are either: (i) New premises, or (ii) premises undergoing conversion or alteration. " [http://www.canterbury.gov.uk/authori....pdfCanterbury City Council - Provision of toilets in commercial premises open to the public] While the provision of toilets for staff has a legal reference, those for the public do not. However I'm happy to revert to a legal newsgroup to discuss if this is an urban legend. |
Kings Cross - site visit
"Charles Ellson" wrote Maybe a standard planning requirement or a standard licensing requirement which could be added if the licensee wanted a change in the licence, e.g. to allow for longer opening hours. The Licensing Act applies if the premises serve alcohol or 'late night refreshments' after, IIRC, 11 pm, even if they don't sell alcohol. Peter |
Kings Cross - site visit
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Kings Cross - site visit
Once upon a time, Peter Masson wrote:
"Charles Ellson" wrote Maybe a standard planning requirement or a standard licensing requirement which could be added if the licensee wanted a change in the licence, e.g. to allow for longer opening hours. The Licensing Act applies if the premises serve alcohol or 'late night refreshments' after, IIRC, 11 pm, even if they don't sell alcohol. Plus only a complete lunatic (or a particularly twisted sadist) would design anywhere that sold alcohol for consumption on the premises without toilets - the consequences for the surrounding area would be horrific. TBH I don't see why people object to pay bogs, it's not as if 30p is exactly going to break anyone's bank and paid-for loos tend to be vastly cleaner and better maintained, and rather less likely to be occupied by undesirables, than free ones. Free loos within paid areas (as in trackside or in pubs, beyond the barriers in cinemas, etc) make sense. But public ones are just nicer when there's a fee - gives the owners both a revenue stream and an incentive to keep things civilised. -- - The Iron Jelloid |
Kings Cross - site visit
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 02:35:40 +0000, The Iron Jelloid
wrote: Once upon a time, Peter Masson wrote: "Charles Ellson" wrote Maybe a standard planning requirement or a standard licensing requirement which could be added if the licensee wanted a change in the licence, e.g. to allow for longer opening hours. The Licensing Act applies if the premises serve alcohol or 'late night refreshments' after, IIRC, 11 pm, even if they don't sell alcohol. ICBW but I don't think licensing authorities have as much freedom to impose non-statutary requirements as they used to. Plus only a complete lunatic (or a particularly twisted sadist) would design anywhere that sold alcohol for consumption on the premises without toilets - the consequences for the surrounding area would be horrific. Such consequences being among standard matters used to object to a licence even when there are sufficient bogs. TBH I don't see why people object to pay bogs, it's not as if 30p is exactly going to break anyone's bank and paid-for loos tend to be vastly cleaner and better maintained, and rather less likely to be occupied by undesirables, than free ones. Free loos within paid areas (as in trackside or in pubs, beyond the barriers in cinemas, etc) make sense. But public ones are just nicer when there's a fee - gives the owners both a revenue stream and an incentive to keep things civilised. |
Kings Cross - site visit
I'm fairly sure there's a law that says you must provide free toilets if you serve alcohol - and this has been floated as the reason why St Pancras toilets are free (the champagne bar etc). However I'm happy to revert to a legal newsgroup to discuss if this is an urban legend. NO! Don't involve them! |
Kings Cross - site visit
In message , at 02:35:40 on Fri,
23 Mar 2012, The Iron Jelloid remarked: TBH I don't see why people object to pay bogs, it's not as if 30p is exactly going to break anyone's bank It's whether you have the 30p on you or not (ie no use if all you have is a 50p). Although the loos at Kings Cross have change machines outside, so that's OK until they break. One of the two turnstyles had broken already. "Sorry for the inconvenience" a sign on it quipped. -- Roland Perry |
Kings Cross - site visit
On 23/03/2012 02:35, The Iron Jelloid wrote:
paid-for loos tend to be vastly cleaner and better maintained, and rather less likely to be occupied by undesirables, than free ones. This doesn't seem to apply to station toilets - London Victoria seems to come with undesirables built in. Then there are the German stations which charge about the same as an open return on Virgin. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Kings Cross - site visit
In uk.railway Roland Perry wrote:
I'm fairly sure there's a law that says you must provide free toilets if you serve alcohol - and this has been floated as the reason why St Pancras toilets are free (the champagne bar etc). Does this mean you can't have 'a trolley service of drinks and ... a fully licensed bar' on a 313? Or a unit where the only toilet is locked out of use? Theo |
Kings Cross - site visit
In message , at 10:25:42 on Fri,
23 Mar 2012, Theo Markettos remarked: I'm fairly sure there's a law that says you must provide free toilets if you serve alcohol - and this has been floated as the reason why St Pancras toilets are free (the champagne bar etc). Does this mean you can't have 'a trolley service of drinks and ... a fully licensed bar' on a 313? Or a unit where the only toilet is locked out of use? Trains are a special case and aren't licenced, so I would expect any law about licenced premises not to apply. -- Roland Perry |
Kings Cross - site visit
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 07:29:40 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 02:35:40 on Fri, 23 Mar 2012, The Iron Jelloid remarked: TBH I don't see why people object to pay bogs, it's not as if 30p is exactly going to break anyone's bank It's whether you have the 30p on you or not (ie no use if all you have is a 50p). Although the loos at Kings Cross have change machines outside, so that's OK until they break. It's a bit of a shame you can't use your Oyster card. |
Kings Cross - site visit
In message , at 12:04:01 on
Fri, 23 Mar 2012, David Walters remarked: TBH I don't see why people object to pay bogs, it's not as if 30p is exactly going to break anyone's bank It's whether you have the 30p on you or not (ie no use if all you have is a 50p). Although the loos at Kings Cross have change machines outside, so that's OK until they break. It's a bit of a shame you can't use your Oyster card. Because of banking regulations that would probably only be allowed if the toilets were operated by TfL. However, they could accept "Paywave" credit cards. In the future, it might be worth trying to get the law changed/clarified, to see if stored credit on ITSO cards (eg issued by FCC or EC) could be used, as buying from Network Rail rather than the ToCs is almost the same thing. And that would leave the way open for "free facilities" for season ticket holders and so on. -- Roland Perry |
Kings Cross - site visit
In message , at 21:15:06 on Thu, 22 Mar
2012, Roland Perry remarked: I'm fairly sure there's a law that says you must provide free toilets if you serve alcohol - and this has been floated as the reason why St Pancras toilets are free (the champagne bar etc). However I'm happy to revert to a legal newsgroup to discuss if this is an urban legend. Having done that, it seems that there's no overarching legal requirement, but some councils have it as (in effect) a byelaw through standard licencing conditions. But not Camden. Looking at Camden's online licencing site, the Parcel Yard, M&S[1] and the apparently[2] dry Mexican fastfood joint next to the wine bar have licences, but the wine bar itself isn't listed. [1] The outlet my earlier informant must have missed, on the outer edge, along with the escalators from the NTH which others have missed. This is a fascinating time, when seasoned travellers can experience what it's like to be an infrequent user of a station. [2] I had a quick look around it yesterday evening and couldn't see any alcohol for sale. -- Roland Perry |
Kings Cross - site visit
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 12:40:48 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:04:01 on It's a bit of a shame you can't use your Oyster card. Because of banking regulations that would probably only be allowed if the toilets were operated by TfL. However, they could accept "Paywave" credit cards. But the Oyster card is being used on non-TfL services! It can also be used to pay for entry to a museum, so it's apparently legal to use it to pay for other things than transportation fares. -- jhk |
Kings Cross - site visit
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 16:21:27 +0100
Jarle H Knudsen wrote: On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 12:40:48 +0000, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 12:04:01 on It's a bit of a shame you can't use your Oyster card. Because of banking regulations that would probably only be allowed if the toilets were operated by TfL. However, they could accept "Paywave" credit cards. But the Oyster card is being used on non-TfL services! It can also be used to pay for entry to a museum, so it's apparently legal to use it to pay for other things than transportation fares. Its essentially a gift voucher (you pay someone money, they'll redeem it later for goods or services) so there's no legal issue at all. B2003 |
Kings Cross - site visit
In message , at 16:21:27 on
Fri, 23 Mar 2012, Jarle H Knudsen remarked: It's a bit of a shame you can't use your Oyster card. Because of banking regulations that would probably only be allowed if the toilets were operated by TfL. However, they could accept "Paywave" credit cards. But the Oyster card is being used on non-TfL services! I suppose it is, so there's been some relaxation, but still train fares. It can also be used to pay for entry to a museum, I'm not aware of that. TfL don't accept it at their own museum. so it's apparently legal to use it to pay for other things than transportation fares. The bit which isn't legal is TfL acting as a "bank" - holding customers' money then paying it out to third parties. -- Roland Perry |
Kings Cross - site visit
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 15:43:47 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote: In message , at 16:21:27 on Fri, 23 Mar 2012, Jarle H Knudsen remarked: It's a bit of a shame you can't use your Oyster card. Because of banking regulations that would probably only be allowed if the toilets were operated by TfL. However, they could accept "Paywave" credit cards. But the Oyster card is being used on non-TfL services! I suppose it is, so there's been some relaxation, but still train fares. It can also be used to pay for entry to a museum, I'm not aware of that. TfL don't accept it at their own museum. so it's apparently legal to use it to pay for other things than transportation fares. The bit which isn't legal is TfL acting as a "bank" - holding customers' money then paying it out to third parties. Nowadays the mere act of transmitting other peoples' money is probably enough to involve at least brushing against some part of money-laundering law. |
Kings Cross - site visit
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 10:50:20 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote: In message , at 10:25:42 on Fri, 23 Mar 2012, Theo Markettos remarked: I'm fairly sure there's a law that says you must provide free toilets if you serve alcohol - and this has been floated as the reason why St Pancras toilets are free (the champagne bar etc). Does this mean you can't have 'a trolley service of drinks and ... a fully licensed bar' on a 313? Or a unit where the only toilet is locked out of use? Trains are a special case and aren't licenced, so I would expect any law about licenced premises not to apply. They are "licensed" in the sense that the sale of alcohol is dependant on licensing laws which include trains within their scope (the only real exemption seems to be any requirement for licensing of individual places) which limit when and to whom the alcohol can be sold and can prohibit such sales. In any case, there does not seem to be any mention of toilets (or tiolets) in current Licensing Acts. |
Kings Cross - site visit
In message , at 18:24:43 on
Fri, 23 Mar 2012, Charles Ellson remarked: Nowadays the mere act of transmitting other peoples' money is probably enough to involve at least brushing against some part of money-laundering law. Indeed so. Read the T&C of a "shopping card" and they say so explicitly. They also say that such gift cards can't be used by under-18's (if you've been following another somewhat USA-centric thread about minors using gift cards to buy train tickets). -- Roland Perry |
Kings Cross - site visit
On Mar 23, 7:51*am, Arthur Figgis wrote:
.. This doesn't seem to apply to station toilets - London Victoria seems to come with undesirables built in. When I worked there in the early 90s it had a fearsome reputation for "rent" boys so much so that "The Bill" did an episode on the station in which they made it obvious that it was Victoria station and although my memory is vague there was some sort of campaign that ran with it. I won't go into why they changed the hand soap to an abbrasive one though. Richard |
Kings Cross - site visit
"Roland Perry" schreef
: It's whether you have the 30p on you or not (ie no use if all you have : is a 50p). Although the loos at Kings Cross have change machines : outside, so that's OK until they break. : : One of the two turnstyles had broken already. "Sorry for the : inconvenience" a sign on it quipped. Have the yellow "Warning - Slippery Floor" cones appeared yet ? Colin Youngs Brussels |
Kings Cross - site visit
In message , at 22:34:49 on Fri, 23 Mar
2012, Colin Youngs remarked: : It's whether you have the 30p on you or not (ie no use if all you have : is a 50p). Although the loos at Kings Cross have change machines : outside, so that's OK until they break. : : One of the two turnstyles had broken already. "Sorry for the : inconvenience" a sign on it quipped. Have the yellow "Warning - Slippery Floor" cones appeared yet ? I didn't go inside. -- Roland Perry |
Kings Cross - site visit
On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:15:06 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote: I'm fairly sure there's a law that says you must provide free toilets if you serve alcohol It is normally a licence condition. At Manc Picc it used to involve a dedicated bog upstairs for which staff would issue a door code. Neil -- Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK |
Kings Cross - site visit
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 07:51:01 +0000, Arthur Figgis
wrote: Then there are the German stations which charge about the same as an open return on Virgin. Also found in Switzerland. The upside of them is there is a dedicated cleaner; cubicles are often cleaned after each use. Neil -- Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK |
Kings Cross - site visit
On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:41:09 +0000, Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 22/03/2012 20:21, Roland Perry wrote: All the toilets are 30p (beneath the pub and at the southern end of the mezzanine), and I don't understand how the Prezzo bar complies with the law in this respect. The pub has its own free toilets on both floors. What law? There are lots stations with catering and only paid-for bogs, and others with catering and no bogs at all. I looked this up with regard to a then-new coffee place on West Croydon station, and it seemed that it is myth that toilets have to be provided where there is food and drink on sale, however local authorities can choose to require them. I think that is the correct answer. From my memory (which may admittedly be wrong) the Station Cafe in Craven Arms -- not at the station, despite its name -- does not have any toilet facilities at all. -- Bewdley, Worcs. ~90m asl. |
Kings Cross - site visit
In message
, at 14:04:56 on Sat, 24 Mar 2012, Owain remarked: It's regarded as a banking facility (or e-money), if they can be spent with a third party. Most gift cards are tied to one shop or product. However the regulations allow you to get a refund of the stored value on your Oyster. So all that's needed is a machine (A) which you touch your Oyster against and (if you have stored PAYG value) it gives you a 20p or even a 50p coin as a partial refund. That's a very clever idea, but has a drawback - it would allow thieves to "cash in" on lost/stolen cards. -- Roland Perry |
Kings Cross - site visit
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 15:43:47 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
It can also be used to pay for entry to a museum, I'm not aware of that. TfL don't accept it at their own museum. Have they stopped accepting it then? There was an oyster reader at the ticket sales point when I visited a few years back. A post in this group from 2009 suggest they accept it. See https://groups.google.com/d/msg/uk.t...w/7b-odfRG34QJ -- jhk |
Kings Cross - site visit
In message , at 15:27:52 on
Sun, 25 Mar 2012, Jarle H Knudsen remarked: It can also be used to pay for entry to a museum, I'm not aware of that. TfL don't accept it at their own museum. Have they stopped accepting it then? There was an oyster reader at the ticket sales point when I visited a few years back. A post in this group from 2009 suggest they accept it. See https://groups.google.com/d/msg/uk.t...w/7b-odfRG34QJ I couldn't see any mention of it on their current site. But even if the do, it's not useful to say Oyster can be used for museum entry, if that's the only one. -- Roland Perry |
Kings Cross - site visit
On Mar 25, 3:31*pm, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:27:52 on Sun, 25 Mar 2012, Jarle H Knudsen remarked: It can also be used to pay for entry to a museum, I'm not aware of that. TfL don't accept it at their own museum. Have they stopped accepting it then? There was an oyster reader at the ticket sales point when I visited a few years back. A post in this group from 2009 suggest they accept it. See https://groups.google.com/d/msg/uk.t...kYF9wk_w/7b-od... I couldn't see any mention of it on their current site. But even if the do, it's not useful to say Oyster can be used for museum entry, if that's the only one. -- Roland Perry Cannot say I noticed any last Tuesday when I went for a Birthday treat - SWMBO paid up as well! We gift aided the tax and were given a paper ticket that is valid for one year, which seems to be getting quite common these days. Not sure how that could be done with Oyster, although I am sure it is technically feasible. Richard |
Kings Cross - site visit
In message
, at 08:17:14 on Sun, 25 Mar 2012, Fat richard remarked: We gift aided the tax and were given a paper ticket that is valid for one year, which seems to be getting quite common these days. Not sure how that could be done with Oyster, although I am sure it is technically feasible. When I looked at their website the other day, I noticed that the standard paper ticket was in fact an annual season. The group-discount ticket, on the other hand, is just a day ticket. I don't see a fundamental problem with exchanging Oyster credit for one of those (paper) annual season tickets, apart from the fact they probably don't do it. (And you'd need to retain the paper ticket, not the record on your Oyster account, which they like to think expires after 90 days anyway). -- Roland Perry |
Kings Cross - site visit
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 15:27:52 +0200, Jarle H Knudsen
wrote: On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 15:43:47 +0000, Roland Perry wrote: I'm not aware of that. TfL don't accept it at their own museum. Have they stopped accepting it then? There was an oyster reader at the ticket sales point when I visited a few years back. A post in this group from 2009 suggest they accept it. Senior Citizens (etc., presumably) could use a Freedom Pass to get free access to the museum until a few years ago. The Oyster reader would have been for that, I think. Richard. |
Kings Cross - site visit
On Mar 26, 8:32*pm, Richard wrote: On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 15:27:52 +0200, Jarle H Knudsen wrote: On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 15:43:47 +0000, Roland Perry wrote: I'm not aware of that. TfL don't accept it at their own museum. Have they stopped accepting it then? There was an oyster reader at the ticket sales point when I visited a few years back. A post in this group from 2009 suggest they accept it. Senior Citizens (etc., presumably) could use a Freedom Pass to get free access to the museum until a few years ago. *The Oyster reader would have been for that, I think. They also allowed payment by Oyster for a while too. |
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