On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 22:57:41 +0000, Tony Dragon
wrote:

On 24/03/2012 11:10, Roland Perry wrote:
I'm only just catching up on the series, and watched the one about
revenue inspectors yesterday. Doing some quick sums on the back of an
envelope, it seems it costs them about as much to run the revenue
inspectors as the fares they are failing to collect (£20m a year). In
any event that's 1% of their turnover, and not the complete financial
disaster they portray it as. Although I agree there's an element of
"encouraging the others" so you have to been seen to be doing *something*.

It spoilt what's otherwise a very good show which I think gives a good
insight into what it's like from the inside (even if some of the staff
play to the cameras a bit).

Meanwhile, there was some speculation earlier about exactly how the chap
was misusing his Oyster. They showed him touching in then out again (but
staying in) which tricked the card into not registering the start of a
journey. What they didn't show was how he was touching-in at a station
closer to his destination, in order to be able to touch out (at a lower
fare) at the destination without incurring a penalty for an unresolved
journey.

If I touch in twice at a National Rails station with my Oyster, will it
be registered as a start of journey?

If you mean twice on entry then IIRC there has to be a minimum time
between touches for the second one to count as it is an expected event
for this to happen if e.g. a gate jams or someone thinks there has
been no response to the touch.
Unfortunately it isn't among the combination of touches dealt with in
this FOI request :-
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques..._card_more_tha

A quick Google suggests that, at least with buses, a second touch
gives a signal to the driver (who will hopefully have seen it has been
in the same person's hand on both occasions) but does not incur an
extra charge. That seems to match my personal experience when the
validator on a bus was either "dumb" or was overpowered by background
noise.

What happens at stations seems to depend on whether or not they are
gated so I'll let someone else answer that.

In message , at 22:12:49 on
Sat, 24 Mar 2012, Roger Lynn remarked:
I'm only just catching up on the series, and watched the one about
revenue inspectors yesterday. Doing some quick sums on the back of an
envelope, it seems it costs them about as much to run the revenue
inspectors as the fares they are failing to collect (£20m a year).

That seems a reasonable amount to spend. How much more revenue would
they lose if they didn't spend anything on inspectors?

I'm in favour of them doing the inspections, so that the sum they lose
doesn't double or triple. But they describe it as a campaign to collect
that £20m, rather than what it really is - "security theatre" to prevent
the loss of the next £20m/£40m.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 05:18:08 on
Sun, 25 Mar 2012, Charles Ellson remarked:
If I touch in twice at a National Rails station with my Oyster, will it
be registered as a start of journey?

If you mean twice on entry then IIRC there has to be a minimum time
between touches for the second one to count as it is an expected event
for this to happen if e.g. a gate jams or someone thinks there has
been no response to the touch.
Unfortunately it isn't among the combination of touches dealt with in
this FOI request :-
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques..._card_more_tha

A quick Google suggests that, at least with buses, a second touch
gives a signal to the driver (who will hopefully have seen it has been
in the same person's hand on both occasions) but does not incur an
extra charge. That seems to match my personal experience when the
validator on a bus was either "dumb" or was overpowered by background
noise.

What happens at stations seems to depend on whether or not they are
gated so I'll let someone else answer that.

If a station is gated, then the second touch won't work, because it's a
measure to prevent "pass-back fraud", in other words handing your Oyster
over the barriers to a friend so they can "share" it.

If the station isn't gated, then pass-back fraud isn't an issue, but
Oyster cards can't be shared (even legitimately) by two concurrent
travellers, and more to the point the validators are two-way, so the
rule of "Touch in at a validator then touch out at a [the same]
validator" would apply. (see question 4 of the above FOI enquiry).

viz: "Within two minutes of touching in .... it is not possible to
touch out on a validator. The validator will perform a
Continuation Entry, leaving the card with an open journey and the
Entry Charge (maximum Oyster fare)."
--
Roland Perry

In message
26541933.34.1332648258322.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbhy1, at
21:04:18 on Sat, 24 Mar 2012, Offramp remarked:
I'm only just catching up on the series, and watched the one about
revenue inspectors yesterday. Doing some quick sums on the back of an
envelope, it seems it costs them about as much to run the revenue
inspectors as the fares they are failing to collect (£20m a year). In
any event that's 1% of their turnover, and not the complete financial
disaster they portray it as. Although I agree there's an element of
"encouraging the others" so you have to been seen to be doing
*something*.

It spoilt what's otherwise a very good show

I don't understand... WHAT has spoilt?

The way they claim that the £20m in question is the straw that would
break the camel's back, allow them to rebuild the network, buy hundreds
of new trains (which they admit cost £8m each) and so on. Even though it
must be costing them £20m to collect only part of that £20m.

It casts a shadow over all the other claims they make about why they are
doing stuff.
--
Roland Perry

On 25/03/2012 09:44, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 05:18:08 on
Sun, 25 Mar 2012, Charles Ellson remarked:
If I touch in twice at a National Rails station with my Oyster, will it
be registered as a start of journey?

If you mean twice on entry then IIRC there has to be a minimum time
between touches for the second one to count as it is an expected event
for this to happen if e.g. a gate jams or someone thinks there has
been no response to the touch.
Unfortunately it isn't among the combination of touches dealt with in
this FOI request :-
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques..._card_more_tha

A quick Google suggests that, at least with buses, a second touch
gives a signal to the driver (who will hopefully have seen it has been
in the same person's hand on both occasions) but does not incur an
extra charge. That seems to match my personal experience when the
validator on a bus was either "dumb" or was overpowered by background
noise.

What happens at stations seems to depend on whether or not they are
gated so I'll let someone else answer that.

If a station is gated, then the second touch won't work, because it's a
measure to prevent "pass-back fraud", in other words handing your Oyster
over the barriers to a friend so they can "share" it.

If the station isn't gated, then pass-back fraud isn't an issue, but
Oyster cards can't be shared (even legitimately) by two concurrent
travellers, and more to the point the validators are two-way, so the
rule of "Touch in at a validator then touch out at a [the same]
validator" would apply. (see question 4 of the above FOI enquiry).

viz: "Within two minutes of touching in .... it is not possible to
touch out on a validator. The validator will perform a
Continuation Entry, leaving the card with an open journey and the
Entry Charge (maximum Oyster fare)."

The reason I ask is because of the following list of events.

I use the lift a my local station, the lift lobby has a sliding door
that is controlled remotely (by video) from the normal gate line (in a
different part of the station).
There is a Oyster reader by this door.
If the door is open I just touch in as normal.
If I touch in & then have to alert them to open the door I sometimes am
requested to touch in again (if the place is busy this might take a while)
On occasions I get charged the maximum charge (no touch in).
Is this because of the double touch in?

I now make sure that I don't touch in until the door is open.

For certain on on occasion when I touched in & the lift was not working,
by the time I had walked back to the ticket office, struggled up the
stairs, touched in at the normal gateline (they would not let me through
otherwise) I got charged the maximum fare.

A phone call allays got the excess refunded.

Sorry, all, but does anybody know where I could see Channel 4's
"Dispatches" documentary about the Tube?

Thanks in advance.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't have manual revenue protection

I'm just saying that "being seen to have it" isn't a reason for
having it.
The people who cheat know that they are cheating - they don't need the
presence of inspectors to remind them


I am not sure your argument takes account of the behavioural effects of
things like visible revenue protection officers on normative behaviour.
I don't know of detailed research on the effects on travel but there is
quite a long history of research on the effect on taxpayers (and
non-payers) which suggests levels of vountary compliance increase with
an increased perception that non-compliance is low or that there
non-compliance carries significant risks of penalties/conviction. In
other words, the target population is not just those who are cheating,
it's also those who might be tempted to cheat.
--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

In message , at 10:30:45 on
Sun, 25 Mar 2012, Tony Dragon remarked:
If I touch in twice at a National Rails station with my Oyster, will it
be registered as a start of journey?

If you mean twice on entry then IIRC there has to be a minimum time
between touches for the second one to count as it is an expected event
for this to happen if e.g. a gate jams or someone thinks there has
been no response to the touch.
Unfortunately it isn't among the combination of touches dealt with in
this FOI request :-
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques..._card_more_tha

A quick Google suggests that, at least with buses, a second touch
gives a signal to the driver (who will hopefully have seen it has been
in the same person's hand on both occasions) but does not incur an
extra charge. That seems to match my personal experience when the
validator on a bus was either "dumb" or was overpowered by background
noise.

What happens at stations seems to depend on whether or not they are
gated so I'll let someone else answer that.

If a station is gated, then the second touch won't work, because it's a
measure to prevent "pass-back fraud", in other words handing your Oyster
over the barriers to a friend so they can "share" it.

If the station isn't gated, then pass-back fraud isn't an issue, but
Oyster cards can't be shared (even legitimately) by two concurrent
travellers, and more to the point the validators are two-way, so the
rule of "Touch in at a validator then touch out at a [the same]
validator" would apply. (see question 4 of the above FOI enquiry).

viz: "Within two minutes of touching in .... it is not possible to
touch out on a validator. The validator will perform a
Continuation Entry, leaving the card with an open journey and the
Entry Charge (maximum Oyster fare)."

The reason I ask is because of the following list of events.

I use the lift a my local station, the lift lobby has a sliding door
that is controlled remotely (by video) from the normal gate line (in a
different part of the station).
There is a Oyster reader by this door.
If the door is open I just touch in as normal.
If I touch in & then have to alert them to open the door I sometimes am
requested to touch in again (if the place is busy this might take a
while)
On occasions I get charged the maximum charge (no touch in).
Is this because of the double touch in?

You'll have to ask TfL what the exact mechanism is, but it sounds like
you are exceeding the 2-minute window mentioned in the FOI response
(even though no double touch-in scenarios are included in the answer).

I now make sure that I don't touch in until the door is open.

For certain on on occasion when I touched in & the lift was not
working, by the time I had walked back to the ticket office, struggled
up the stairs, touched in at the normal gateline (they would not let me
through otherwise) I got charged the maximum fare.

Again, more than two minutes.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 10:43:33 on Sun, 25 Mar
2012, " remarked:
Sorry, all, but does anybody know where I could see Channel 4's
"Dispatches" documentary about the Tube?

Should be: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/4od

but it doesn't seem to have been selected for archiving.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 11:43:38 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 10:43:33 on Sun, 25 Mar
2012, " remarked:
Sorry, all, but does anybody know where I could see Channel 4's
"Dispatches" documentary about the Tube?

Should be: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/4od

but it doesn't seem to have been selected for archiving.

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