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Oyster penalties again
Believe it or not, with £55 million unclaimed Oyster credit, my wife has
been doing her bit in the other direction by having a negative balance of £4.50 for over a year! She was about to use her card on Monday for the first time since 30th March last year and found out about the negative balance. Because journey history shows days of the week it was apparent that it wasn't this year! Looking at the journey history I can't for the life of me make out how the negative balance occurred. It shows two entries for 30th March, King's Cross St Pancras and Westminster, with a charge of £4.40 for the first and £6.50 for the second. Her journeys were KXSP to Westminster and back again. I can't think how this happened. Both are fully gated stations which would only have opened the gates if they registered the card in and out. It had more than enough credit for the two £1.90 fares which should have been charged. We plan to ring the helpline tomorrow to try and sort it out. Getting the details isn't helped by the lack of facilities for getting printed journey history. It's easy to see on a ticket machine but printouts are only available from ticket offices. On the day we only passed KXSP (several times). It either had its usual long queues or was closed. Norbiton isn't an LU station and East Putney's ticket office was closed whenever we passed it. The card wasn't registered as it's hardly over-used. Thoughts? -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Oyster penalties again
In message , at 00:08:38 on
Thu, 12 Apr 2012, Paul Corfield remarked: Looking at the journey history I can't for the life of me make out how the negative balance occurred. It shows two entries for 30th March, Do the ticket machines show journey history from a year ago? http://www.tfl.gov.uk/termsandconditions/12321.aspx Says they only hold data for eight weeks, and are "changing the system" to keep it for two years [classic mission creep, but I'd welcome being able to see history older than 8wks]. 16th of Feb is the oldest I can see today, on their online journey history. Or does the *card* keep details for longer than their database does, in which case why isn't the record on the card valid for doing refunds after their 8 week timeout period? King's Cross St Pancras and Westminster, with a charge of £4.40 for the first If £4.40 was the relevant "maximum fare" for a touch in at KXSP tube at the time, then it indicates the card didn't touch-out at Westminster. iirc they have some fairly slow gates there, and it's possible to inadvertently "follow through" the person in front, with one's own touch not registering. When I'm travelling Oyster PAYG I always pause and count to three before passing through a gate after another passenger, to avoid this possibility. No doubt Paul will cringe at the thought :) but three seconds on my journey time is nothing compared to how long it would take to get a refund. Of course, if using an Oyster season or a paper ticket, a pause isn't necessary. and £6.50 for the second. Her journeys were KXSP to Westminster and back again. I think Paul has the answer for that one, below. I can't think how this happened. Both are fully gated stations which would only have opened the gates if they registered the card in and out. It had more than enough credit for the two £1.90 fares which should have been charged. We plan to ring the helpline tomorrow to try and sort it out. More than 8 weeks ago. Good luck! Getting the details isn't helped by the lack of facilities for getting printed journey history. It's easy to see on a ticket machine but printouts are only available from ticket offices. On the day we only passed KXSP (several times). It either had its usual long queues or was closed. Norbiton isn't an LU station and East Putney's ticket office was closed whenever we passed it. The card wasn't registered as it's hardly over-used. Thoughts? Kings Cross is an OSI. Did the other half use the Oyster Card to get through the FCC gates for the train to Cambridge on the way home? Therefore the system will have expected a subsequent exit and not seeing one the max fare will have remained deducted rather than having value added back on. That's the most plausible explanation I can come up with. It wouldn't be an issue the other way as I assume a paper ticket was used to exit FCC and then the Oyster card used to start at the tube. -- Roland Perry |
Oyster penalties again
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Oyster penalties again
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Oyster penalties again
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 10:04:51 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:30:28 on Thu, 12 Apr 2012, d remarked: Believe it or not, with £55 million unclaimed Oyster credit, my wife has been doing her bit in the other direction by having a negative balance of £4.50 for over a year! Presumably as oyster cards get more expensive to buy then the negative balance allowed gets proportionaly larger? I'm sure the max negative balance used to be something like 2 quid when oysters cost 3 quid. Unless it's a "Visitor card" then the £3/£5 is a deposit, with the card itself remaining the property of TfL. Semantics. The card is de facto the property of the person who paid for it. The notes in your wallet are legally the property of the government but I bet you wouldn't give it over to a minister if he asked for it. B2003 |
Oyster penalties again
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Oyster penalties again
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 11:41:59 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: I'm sure an accountant somewhere was expecting to recycle "surrendered" Oyster cards, all the literature makes it quite clear they don't belong to the holder, only the money on them does. No doubt, but if TfL was truly serious about retaining ownership then they'd require everyone to produce id and a valid address before buying one so they could be reclaimed at some point (though obviously if someone lives abroad that might be a teensy problem). Since they don't require I think it can be infered that they don't actually care. B2003 |
Oyster penalties again
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Oyster penalties again
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 12:05:12 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:52:45 on Thu, 12 Apr 2012, d remarked: I'm sure an accountant somewhere was expecting to recycle "surrendered" Oyster cards, all the literature makes it quite clear they don't belong to the holder, only the money on them does. No doubt, but if TfL was truly serious about retaining ownership then they'd require everyone to produce id and a valid address before buying one so they could be reclaimed at some point (though obviously if someone lives abroad that might be a teensy problem). Since they don't require I think it can be infered that they don't actually care. Whether they care or not (about getting them back), that doesn't change the legal position wrt ownership. If a person or an organisation sells something without knowing or caring where its gone but simply claiming its still theirs then perhaps ownership could be challenged in court? I would xpost to uk.legal but this bloody news server won't allowed it. B2003 |
Oyster penalties again
In article , d ()
wrote: On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 10:04:51 +0100 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:30:28 on Thu, 12 Apr 2012, d remarked: Believe it or not, with £55 million unclaimed Oyster credit, my wife has been doing her bit in the other direction by having a negative balance of £4.50 for over a year! Presumably as oyster cards get more expensive to buy then the negative balance allowed gets proportionaly larger? I'm sure the max negative balance used to be something like 2 quid when oysters cost 3 quid. Unless it's a "Visitor card" then the £3/£5 is a deposit, with the card itself remaining the property of TfL. Semantics. The card is de facto the property of the person who paid for it. The notes in your wallet are legally the property of the government but I bet you wouldn't give it over to a minister if he asked for it. No matter. There was no question of "allowing" any overdraft. The charge was applied after the last use in the Oyster system before last weekend. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Oyster penalties again
In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote: In message , at 00:08:38 on Thu, 12 Apr 2012, Paul Corfield remarked: Looking at the journey history I can't for the life of me make out how the negative balance occurred. It shows two entries for 30th March, Do the ticket machines show journey history from a year ago? http://www.tfl.gov.uk/termsandconditions/12321.aspx Says they only hold data for eight weeks, and are "changing the system" to keep it for two years [classic mission creep, but I'd welcome being able to see history older than 8wks]. 16th of Feb is the oldest I can see today, on their online journey history. Or does the *card* keep details for longer than their database does, in which case why isn't the record on the card valid for doing refunds after their 8 week timeout period? If you read on it says: "Oyster card customers can view details of the last eight journeys made on their card at London Underground and London Overground touchscreen ticket machines or by requesting a print out at a ticket office." This card had't been used 8 times before last weekend. I saw journeys from earlier than March last year. King's Cross St Pancras and Westminster, with a charge of £4.40 for the first If £4.40 was the relevant "maximum fare" for a touch in at KXSP tube at the time, then it indicates the card didn't touch-out at Westminster. iirc they have some fairly slow gates there, and it's possible to inadvertently "follow through" the person in front, with one's own touch not registering. When I'm travelling Oyster PAYG I always pause and count to three before passing through a gate after another passenger, to avoid this possibility. No doubt Paul will cringe at the thought :) but three seconds on my journey time is nothing compared to how long it would take to get a refund. But charging £4.40? Of course, if using an Oyster season or a paper ticket, a pause isn't necessary. and £6.50 for the second. Her journeys were KXSP to Westminster and back again. I think Paul has the answer for that one, below. I can't think how this happened. Both are fully gated stations which would only have opened the gates if they registered the card in and out. It had more than enough credit for the two £1.90 fares which should have been charged. We plan to ring the helpline tomorrow to try and sort it out. More than 8 weeks ago. Good luck! Write to us, they said. I've done so. Getting the details isn't helped by the lack of facilities for getting printed journey history. It's easy to see on a ticket machine but printouts are only available from ticket offices. On the day we only passed KXSP (several times). It either had its usual long queues or was closed. Norbiton isn't an LU station and East Putney's ticket office was closed whenever we passed it. The card wasn't registered as it's hardly over-used. Thoughts? Kings Cross is an OSI. Did the other half use the Oyster Card to get through the FCC gates for the train to Cambridge on the way home? Therefore the system will have expected a subsequent exit and not seeing one the max fare will have remained deducted rather than having value added back on. That's the most plausible explanation I can come up with. It wouldn't be an issue the other way as I assume a paper ticket was used to exit FCC and then the Oyster card used to start at the tube. But there should be two journey history entries if the OSI was invoked, surely? -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Oyster penalties again
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Oyster penalties again
In article , d ()
wrote: On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 06:51:30 -0500 wrote: This card had't been used 8 times before last weekend. I saw journeys from earlier than March last year. Did you buy the card after that date? If so its probably a 2nd hand card that hasn't been wiped. If not then perhaps a duplicate card id has got into the system. If you see other unexpected journeys pop up on the card then it'll be the latter. No. My wife got it new. She just doesn't use it much. We don't live in London and don't go there often. It's in a Mastercard sponsored holder. When were they current? -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Oyster penalties again
In message , at 06:51:30
on Thu, 12 Apr 2012, remarked: Or does the *card* keep details for longer than their database does, in which case why isn't the record on the card valid for doing refunds after their 8 week timeout period? If you read on it says: "Oyster card customers can view details of the last eight journeys made on their card at London Underground and London Overground touchscreen ticket machines or by requesting a print out at a ticket office." This card had't been used 8 times before last weekend. I saw journeys from earlier than March last year. Right, so the card *does* store (the last 8 journeys) without time limit. King's Cross St Pancras and Westminster, with a charge of £4.40 for the first If £4.40 was the relevant "maximum fare" for a touch in at KXSP tube at the time, then it indicates the card didn't touch-out at Westminster. iirc they have some fairly slow gates there, and it's possible to inadvertently "follow through" the person in front, with one's own touch not registering. When I'm travelling Oyster PAYG I always pause and count to three before passing through a gate after another passenger, to avoid this possibility. No doubt Paul will cringe at the thought :) but three seconds on my journey time is nothing compared to how long it would take to get a refund. But charging £4.40? The prices last March are probably in this publication: http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/defau...ry%202011%20fa res%20revision%20PDF.pdf £4.50 is a Z123456 fare, so quite plausible as the penalty for an unresolved fare. But not £4.40 I presume there's no touch-out recorded for that leg? Of course, if using an Oyster season or a paper ticket, a pause isn't necessary. and £6.50 for the second. Her journeys were KXSP to Westminster and back again. I think Paul has the answer for that one, below. I can't think how this happened. Both are fully gated stations which would only have opened the gates if they registered the card in and out. It had more than enough credit for the two £1.90 fares which should have been charged. We plan to ring the helpline tomorrow to try and sort it out. More than 8 weeks ago. Good luck! Write to us, they said. I've done so. Getting the details isn't helped by the lack of facilities for getting printed journey history. It's easy to see on a ticket machine but printouts are only available from ticket offices. On the day we only passed KXSP (several times). It either had its usual long queues or was closed. Norbiton isn't an LU station and East Putney's ticket office was closed whenever we passed it. The card wasn't registered as it's hardly over-used. Thoughts? Kings Cross is an OSI. Did the other half use the Oyster Card to get through the FCC gates for the train to Cambridge on the way home? Therefore the system will have expected a subsequent exit and not seeing one the max fare will have remained deducted rather than having value added back on. That's the most plausible explanation I can come up with. It wouldn't be an issue the other way as I assume a paper ticket was used to exit FCC and then the Oyster card used to start at the tube. But there should be two journey history entries if the OSI was invoked, surely? Don't call me Shirley. But I suppose you are correct, with the postulated touch-in at Kings Cross suburban needing to be listed. I can't see £6.50 as the fare for anything, either. -- Roland Perry |
Oyster penalties again
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:30:16 -0500
wrote: In article , d () wrote: On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 06:51:30 -0500 wrote: This card had't been used 8 times before last weekend. I saw journeys from earlier than March last year. Did you buy the card after that date? If so its probably a 2nd hand card that hasn't been wiped. If not then perhaps a duplicate card id has got into the system. If you see other unexpected journeys pop up on the card then it'll be the latter. No. My wife got it new. She just doesn't use it much. We don't live in London and don't go there often. It's in a Mastercard sponsored holder. When were they current? No idea. I guess that means some card id's have got mixed up assuming that they store the journeys on a central database and not on the card itself. B2003 |
Oyster penalties again
In message , at 15:06:34 on
Thu, 12 Apr 2012, Paul Corfield remarked: Fair comment Colin - I'd missed that. The only "logical" explanation is that for some crazy reason you've ended up with two incomplete journeys - one off peak and the other peak time. Have you got a link to the "cost" of uncompleted journeys - I couldn't see either of Colin's figures on the regular 2011 price list (linked to earlier). -- Roland Perry |
Oyster penalties again
In message , at 15:23:58 on
Thu, 12 Apr 2012, Paul Corfield remarked: Your question about the deduction values has made me go back and check what the entry charges were for PAYG for the 2011 revision. Charges can vary by adult / child, tariff, time of day Understood. And the relevant fares tables make this quite clear. and if there is a discount entitlement on the card. We are looking for 10p/20p discounts, which doesn't seem very likely. £6.50 was the Adult peak entry charge for both the TfL and NR tariff. £4.40 was the Adult off peak entry charge for the NR tariff. The TfL tariff charge was £4.30. Is there a document which has these numbers in, and explains why (for example) the £4.30 charge isn't £4.50 (the Z1-6 fare)? This therefore gives a tiny clue that the £4.40 charge was incurred as part entering where the system assumes you're in NR land rather than TfL land. Goodness knows how KX gatelines / validators are assigned to either NR or TfL. I'd have expected the SPILL ones and KX Suburban ones to be NR, and the remainder TfL (at the time; now there are more NR ones). Which leaves the old "Kings Cross Thameslink" entrance, which was previously more of a NR station but is now entirely TfL. I wonder if the gates weren't changed? -- Roland Perry |
Oyster penalties again
In message , at 15:49:50 on Thu, 12 Apr
2012, Roland Perry remarked: £6.50 was the Adult peak entry charge for both the TfL and NR tariff. £4.40 was the Adult off peak entry charge for the NR tariff. The TfL tariff charge was £4.30. Is there a document which has these numbers in, and explains why (for example) the £4.30 charge isn't £4.50 (the Z1-6 fare)? Cancel that... In the document I found earlier it says (para 1.8) "As a result of these changes, the PAYG peak 1-6 Train-Tube fare increases from £6.00 to £6.50 and the off-peak fare from £4.30 to £4.40. These two fares will continue to determine the peak and off-peak entry and exit charges for all rail PAYG journeys." What I still can't understand, though, is why none of these figures appear in the table on page 11 (which claims to have all the peak and off-peak, TfL, National Rail and through services). http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/defau...ary%202011%20f ares%20revision%20PDF.pdf -- Roland Perry |
Oyster penalties again
In message , at 16:28:06 on
Thu, 12 Apr 2012, Paul Corfield remarked: In the document I found earlier it says (para 1.8) "As a result of these changes, the PAYG peak 1-6 Train-Tube fare increases from £6.00 to £6.50 and the off-peak fare from £4.30 to £4.40. These two fares will continue to determine the peak and off-peak entry and exit charges for all rail PAYG journeys." What I still can't understand, though, is why none of these figures appear in the table on page 11 (which claims to have all the peak and off-peak, TfL, National Rail and through services). http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/defau...ary%202011%20f ares%20revision%20PDF.pdf the Mayor's Decision document never includes all the permutations of fares and charges. It only includes the main fares or prices which most of the public need. Not sure why that would be a problem for you to comprehend. I'd expect the "penalties" to be the same as one of the actual fares. They seem to be 10p-50p different. -- Roland Perry |
Oyster penalties again
In message , at 16:03:25 on
Thu, 12 Apr 2012, Paul Corfield remarked: I am not going to share old documents. That's not very open and transparent (something that Oyster needs to "up its game" on, frankly). How is someone like Colin supposed to work out what's happened to him? What's today's equivalent of the £4.40/£6.50, and where would we find it in the current document? (I had a skim through and was bamboozled by the sheer number of different fares). -- Roland Perry |
Oyster penalties again
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Oyster penalties again
In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote: In article , (Paul Corfield) wrote: On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:01:17 -0500, wrote: [snip] Thoughts? Kings Cross is an OSI. Did the other half use the Oyster Card to get through the FCC gates for the train to Cambridge on the way home? I very much doubt that. She would only expect to use Oyster on the Underground and not all the station was even gated then. I suppose it could have come too close to the gate when using her paper ticket but she doesn't keep them in the same wallets so that seems a bit unlikely. Hmm I'd be a bit surprised as the targets don't have a long range and if the Oyster activated the gate before the mag ticket I guess your wife would have noticed. Therefore the system will have expected a subsequent exit and not seeing one the max fare will have remained deducted rather than having value added back on. That's the most plausible explanation I can come up with. Yes, I understand that possibility but there is the other charge. It wouldn't be an issue the other way as I assume a paper ticket was used to exit FCC and then the Oyster card used to start at the tube. That wouldn't explain the £4.40 charge in the other direction where there can be no question of any OSI confusion. Fair comment Colin - I'd missed that. The only "logical" explanation is that for some crazy reason you've ended up with two incomplete journeys - one off peak and the other peak time. You've said the card has only recorded the entries but no exits and as I'm sure you know the system has levied the entry charges but not added value back to get to the right fare deduction. Sounds like it charged the maximum fares on entry but never checked them out. I must get more detail by the sound of it. It is obviously possible that gates are left open if there are very large crowds and both Westminster and KXSP can have such large crowds. Clearly the targets on the gates should remain live in such circumstances to allow entries and exits to be recorded properly. There is no obvious answer within the system that I can think of that would have caused the problem you encountered. I doubt that at Westminster. It has gates beyond the dreams of avarice! I've never seen them open at any time. It will be interesting to see how TfL deal with your query given the elapsed time and lack of central records. Only the card will hold the data unless there have been further journeys that may cause them to be removed from the card's 10 journey memory. Sounds like it would be a good idea to get a print out of the Journey history. We'll be in London at various times next week. I could scan it and send it in. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Oyster penalties again
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Oyster penalties again
In article ,
(Barry Salter) wrote: On 12/04/2012 00:01, wrote: Looking at the journey history I can't for the life of me make out how the negative balance occurred. It shows two entries for 30th March, King's Cross St Pancras and Westminster, with a charge of £4.40 for the first and £6.50 for the second. Her journeys were KXSP to Westminster and back again. Depending on how long she spent at Westminster, it's possible it was treated as a single journey but fell foul of the maximum time limit for a Zone 1 journey (i.e. 90 minutes). Definitely not that. She was going to a briefing in the afternoon and then making another visit before returning to King's Cross. The first journey would have been off peak and the second probably in the evening peak. The only explanation for the £4.40 is that the touch out at Westminster opened the gate but failed to register. She doesn't remember the details too well except that she broke her leg the next day! -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Oyster penalties again
On 12/04/2012 12:05, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:52:45 on Thu, 12 Apr 2012, d remarked: I'm sure an accountant somewhere was expecting to recycle "surrendered" Oyster cards, all the literature makes it quite clear they don't belong to the holder, only the money on them does. No doubt, but if TfL was truly serious about retaining ownership then they'd require everyone to produce id and a valid address before buying one so they could be reclaimed at some point (though obviously if someone lives abroad that might be a teensy problem). Since they don't require I think it can be infered that they don't actually care. Whether they care or not (about getting them back), that doesn't change the legal position wrt ownership. Presumably they assert ownership as some way to increase the chance of prosecution if you decide to hack "your" Oyster card? Or if they discover dodgy behaviour going on they can invalidate and/or confiscate cards (whilst paying back any pay as you go balance) without you being able to accuse them of theft? |
Oyster penalties again
In message , at 16:34:06
on Thu, 12 Apr 2012, remarked: What's today's equivalent of the £4.40/£6.50, and where would we find it in the current document? (I had a skim through and was bamboozled by the sheer number of different fares). If have looked at current detailed online journey history for my own card. Choosing the "Show all charging detail" option I see that the initial touch in charge on all my recent journeys was £3.05. I guess that is the railcard-discounted equivalent of £4.60 off peak. I have a feeling from past discussion here that the no touch out peak fare without a railcard is £7. That would cover the £4.40 and £6.50 equivalents. Looking at my own Oyster card, the current "Touch in deduction" seems to be £4.60 and £6.90 (off-peak and peak). Although just to keep people on their toes^H^H^H in the dark, this s not mentioned in the 2012 fare rise documentation (equivalent to the 2011 one I posted yesterday): I can't find the 'body' of the Jan 2012 fare rise decision on the Mayors Site, but here is are the appendices: http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/defau...tion%20for%20J an%2012%20v5%20(2)%20tables_0.pdf And as presented to Travelwatch: http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/14018/get So, it looks like you have two unresolved journeys, where the touch-out was missed. When it's busy at Kings Cross St Pancras, especially the old ticket hall, it seems to me to again quite easy to inadvertently "follow through" with your own touch-out not registering. -- Roland Perry |
Oyster penalties again
In message , at 08:20:39 on Fri, 13 Apr
2012, Someone Somewhere remarked: Whether they care or not (about getting them back), that doesn't change the legal position wrt ownership. Presumably they assert ownership as some way to increase the chance of prosecution if you decide to hack "your" Oyster card? Or if they discover dodgy behaviour going on they can invalidate and/or confiscate cards (whilst paying back any pay as you go balance) without you being able to accuse them of theft? It may also be a belt-and-braces way to be able to ask to see the card, because it's their card so they are entitled to see it (irrespective of the general byelaws saying you have to make it available for inspection). -- Roland Perry |
Oyster penalties again
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 08:28:13 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: It may also be a belt-and-braces way to be able to ask to see the card, because it's their card so they are entitled to see it (irrespective of the general byelaws saying you have to make it available for inspection). On a related subject - how much legal powers do revenue inspectors have? If someone just tells them to eff off is there much they can do about it apart from call the BTP? B2003 |
Oyster penalties again
In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote: In message , at 16:34:06 on Thu, 12 Apr 2012, remarked: What's today's equivalent of the £4.40/£6.50, and where would we find it in the current document? (I had a skim through and was bamboozled by the sheer number of different fares). If have looked at current detailed online journey history for my own card. Choosing the "Show all charging detail" option I see that the initial touch in charge on all my recent journeys was £3.05. I guess that is the railcard-discounted equivalent of £4.60 off peak. I have a feeling from past discussion here that the no touch out peak fare without a railcard is £7. That would cover the £4.40 and £6.50 equivalents. Looking at my own Oyster card, the current "Touch in deduction" seems to be £4.60 and £6.90 (off-peak and peak). Although just to keep people on their toes^H^H^H in the dark, this s not mentioned in the 2012 fare rise documentation (equivalent to the 2011 one I posted yesterday): I can't find the 'body' of the Jan 2012 fare rise decision on the Mayors Site, but here is are the appendices: http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/defau...%20for%20Jan%2 012%20v5%20(2)%20tables_0.pdf And as presented to Travelwatch: http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/14018/get So, it looks like you have two unresolved journeys, where the touch-out was missed. When it's busy at Kings Cross St Pancras, especially the old ticket hall, it seems to me to again quite easy to inadvertently "follow through" with your own touch-out not registering. And at Westminster off peak with its enormous gateline? Seems odd. She doesn't recall too much detail because of the following day's drama. Too late now but I have advised my wife to follow my technique. I lay the car down on the pad and wait till I see the balance. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Oyster penalties again
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Oyster penalties again
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Oyster penalties again
In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote: In message , at 05:21:13 on Fri, 13 Apr 2012, remarked: So, it looks like you have two unresolved journeys, where the touch-out was missed. When it's busy at Kings Cross St Pancras, especially the old ticket hall, it seems to me to again quite easy to inadvertently "follow through" with your own touch-out not registering. And at Westminster off peak with its enormous gateline? Seems odd. She doesn't recall too much detail because of the following day's drama. Like I said yesterday, the gates there also seem susceptible to "following through". Too late now but I have advised my wife to follow my technique. I lay the car down on the pad and wait till I see the balance. I prefer to wait for the gates to close after the person in front, then touch. If you get the balance displayed as expected your card has been read. Some gates are designed to stay open between users to speed flows. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Oyster penalties again
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 11:45:51 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: "Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force. This right of removal is So they can physically throw you off? Didn't know that. That'll be why there's always a big one in the pair. B2003 |
Oyster penalties again
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Oyster penalties again
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Oyster penalties again
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 12:33:02 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 11:13:48 on Fri, 13 Apr 2012, d remarked: "Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force. This right of removal is So they can physically throw you off? Didn't know that. That'll be why there's always a big one in the pair. Or a "big man" from the audience. Are you suggesting they have sleeper agents hidden amongst the pax ready to spring into action? :) B2003 |
Oyster penalties again
In article , d ()
wrote: On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 12:33:02 +0100 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 11:13:48 on Fri, 13 Apr 2012, d remarked: "Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force. This right of removal is So they can physically throw you off? Didn't know that. That'll be why there's always a big one in the pair. Or a "big man" from the audience. Are you suggesting they have sleeper agents hidden amongst the pax ready to spring into action? :) You mean you didn't know? -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Oyster penalties again
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Oyster penalties again
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 14:20:18 +0200
Jarle H Knudsen wrote: On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 11:13:48 +0000 (UTC), d wrote: On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 11:45:51 +0100 Roland Perry wrote: "Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force. This right of removal is So they can physically throw you off? Didn't know that. That'll be why there's always a big one in the pair. Can they do the opposite? I.e. hold you back until the police arrive if you want to leave without showing a valid ticket or refuse to state your name and address. Good question. Don't supermarket security guards have that power with shoplifters? And after all, blinged up security guards is all they really are when it comes down to it. B2003 |
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