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Capping mishandled
I made many LU journeys in Z1-4 and one costing 1.40 to Z5.
I was charged 14.40, rather than 12.00 - the Z1-4 cap + 1.40. Oyster helpdesk staff took a few days to agree that I had been overcharged and agreed an ex gratia payment for the inconvenience. The payments were delayed for an extra day as they needed "approval". Automatic overpayment detection does not recognise the situation. OTOH, there are discrepancies between the Single Fare Finder and Oyster. (Oyster charges less.) Moorgate - Queens Road Peckham peak shows as 3.80 but charges 3.70. It seems there were recent changes to charges between LU & NR. The Single Fare Finder has not been updated to reflect those changes. -- Walter Briscoe |
Capping mishandled
On Apr 13, 12:46*pm, Walter Briscoe
wrote: I made many LU journeys in Z1-4 and one costing 1.40 to Z5. I was charged 14.40, rather than 12.00 - the Z1-4 cap + 1.40. Oyster helpdesk staff took a few days to agree that I had been overcharged and agreed an ex gratia payment for the inconvenience. The payments were delayed for an extra day as they needed "approval". Automatic overpayment detection does not recognise the situation. OTOH, there are discrepancies between the Single Fare Finder and Oyster. (Oyster charges less.) Moorgate - Queens Road Peckham peak shows as 3.80 but charges 3.70. It seems there were recent changes to charges between LU & NR. The Single Fare Finder has not been updated to reflect those changes. -- Walter Briscoe Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. Oyster has never been able to charge in the way that you think it should. I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed. Regards, Jack |
Capping mishandled
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 02:18:40 -0700 (PDT), Jack wrote:
On Apr 13, 12:46*pm, Walter Briscoe wrote: I made many LU journeys in Z1-4 and one costing 1.40 to Z5. I was charged 14.40, rather than 12.00 - the Z1-4 cap + 1.40. Oyster helpdesk staff took a few days to agree that I had been overcharged and agreed an ex gratia payment for the inconvenience. The payments were delayed for an extra day as they needed "approval". Automatic overpayment detection does not recognise the situation. OTOH, there are discrepancies between the Single Fare Finder and Oyster. (Oyster charges less.) Moorgate - Queens Road Peckham peak shows as 3.80 but charges 3.70. It seems there were recent changes to charges between LU & NR. The Single Fare Finder has not been updated to reflect those changes. -- Walter Briscoe Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. Oyster has never been able to charge in the way that you think it should. I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed. Zone 1-4 + an extra single journey is how I assumed the worked too, but I'm apparently mistaken. Does TfL explain exactly how it works anywhere? This page, http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14837.aspx , states "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your journeys in one day." A zone 1-4 travelcard plus a single oyster fare would have been the cheapest alternative. -- jhk |
Capping mishandled
In message , at 12:58:22 on
Mon, 16 Apr 2012, Jarle H Knudsen remarked: I made many LU journeys in Z1-4 and one costing 1.40 to Z5. I was charged 14.40, rather than 12.00 - the Z1-4 cap + 1.40. .... Zone 1-4 + an extra single journey is how I assumed the worked too, but I'm apparently mistaken. Does TfL explain exactly how it works anywhere? This page, http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14837.aspx , states "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your journeys in one day." A zone 1-4 travelcard plus a single oyster fare would have been the cheapest alternative. The Z1-4 cap is £10.60, plus £1.40 is £12.00 But the Z1-5 cap is £15.80 - so how does £14.40 arise? (Other than being £15.80 minus £1.40, which makes no sense). -- Roland Perry |
Capping mishandled
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 12:36:32 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:58:22 on Mon, 16 Apr 2012, Jarle H Knudsen remarked: I made many LU journeys in Z1-4 and one costing 1.40 to Z5. I was charged 14.40, rather than 12.00 - the Z1-4 cap + 1.40. ... Zone 1-4 + an extra single journey is how I assumed the worked too, but I'm apparently mistaken. Does TfL explain exactly how it works anywhere? This page, http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14837.aspx , states "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your journeys in one day." A zone 1-4 travelcard plus a single oyster fare would have been the cheapest alternative. The Z1-4 cap is £10.60, plus £1.40 is £12.00 But the Z1-5 cap is £15.80 - so how does £14.40 arise? (Other than being £15.80 minus £1.40, which makes no sense). I assumed £14.40 to be the sum of Oyster single fares for all his journeys that day. -- jhk |
Capping mishandled
In message , at 14:12:17 on
Mon, 16 Apr 2012, Jarle H Knudsen remarked: I made many LU journeys in Z1-4 and one costing 1.40 to Z5. I was charged 14.40, rather than 12.00 - the Z1-4 cap + 1.40. ... Zone 1-4 + an extra single journey is how I assumed the worked too, but I'm apparently mistaken. Does TfL explain exactly how it works anywhere? This page, http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14837.aspx , states "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your journeys in one day." A zone 1-4 travelcard plus a single oyster fare would have been the cheapest alternative. The Z1-4 cap is £10.60, plus £1.40 is £12.00 But the Z1-5 cap is £15.80 - so how does £14.40 arise? (Other than being £15.80 minus £1.40, which makes no sense). I assumed £14.40 to be the sum of Oyster single fares for all his journeys that day. I see. So he made £14.40-£1.40=£13.00 worth of trips in Z1-4, which would have been capped at £10.60, had he not strayed into Z5. Makes sense. -- Roland Perry |
Capping mishandled
In message , at 13:04:05
on Mon, 16 Apr 2012, remarked: I made many LU journeys in Z1-4 and one costing 1.40 to Z5. I was charged 14.40, rather than 12.00 - the Z1-4 cap + 1.40. ... Zone 1-4 + an extra single journey is how I assumed the worked too, but I'm apparently mistaken. Does TfL explain exactly how it works anywhere? This page, http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14837.aspx , states "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your journeys in one day." A zone 1-4 travelcard plus a single oyster fare would have been the cheapest alternative. The Z1-4 cap is £10.60, plus £1.40 is £12.00 But the Z1-5 cap is £15.80 - so how does £14.40 arise? (Other than being £15.80 minus £1.40, which makes no sense). I assumed £14.40 to be the sum of Oyster single fares for all his journeys that day. I see. So he made £14.40-£1.40=£13.00 worth of trips in Z1-4, which would have been capped at £10.60, had he not strayed into Z5. Makes sense. FSVO "sense". "It adds up", if you prefer that as a description. If I understand the theory behind the sums above, we can re-write the Oyster "Price Promise" so rather than what it says above, the wording is more like: "Oyster will cap all your journeys in one day to the cost of the relevant Travelcard that would have been sufficient and necessary to carry out all those journeys. (There may be other combinations of ticket which would have cost you less.)" -- Roland Perry |
Capping mishandled
In message , at 19:44:04 on
Mon, 16 Apr 2012, Paul Corfield remarked: I made many LU journeys in Z1-4 and one costing 1.40 to Z5. I was charged 14.40, rather than 12.00 - the Z1-4 cap + 1.40. Oyster helpdesk staff took a few days to agree that I had been overcharged and agreed an ex gratia payment for the inconvenience. The payments were delayed for an extra day as they needed "approval". Automatic overpayment detection does not recognise the situation. OTOH, there are discrepancies between the Single Fare Finder and Oyster. (Oyster charges less.) Moorgate - Queens Road Peckham peak shows as 3.80 but charges 3.70. It seems there were recent changes to charges between LU & NR. The Single Fare Finder has not been updated to reflect those changes. -- Walter Briscoe Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. Oyster has never been able to charge in the way that you think it should. I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed. The issue is more involved than that though. We do not know how many journeys and at what value were undertaken prior to 0930 in terms of determining what cap applies and then what value of peak journeys would be added to the Z16 off peak cap. Why Z16, he only went out as far as Z5. -- Roland Perry |
Capping mishandled
In message , at 20:13:18 on
Mon, 16 Apr 2012, Paul Corfield remarked: I made many LU journeys in Z1-4 and one costing 1.40 to Z5. I was charged 14.40, rather than 12.00 - the Z1-4 cap + 1.40. Oyster helpdesk staff took a few days to agree that I had been overcharged and agreed an ex gratia payment for the inconvenience. The payments were delayed for an extra day as they needed "approval". Automatic overpayment detection does not recognise the situation. OTOH, there are discrepancies between the Single Fare Finder and Oyster. (Oyster charges less.) Moorgate - Queens Road Peckham peak shows as 3.80 but charges 3.70. It seems there were recent changes to charges between LU & NR. The Single Fare Finder has not been updated to reflect those changes. -- Walter Briscoe Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. Oyster has never been able to charge in the way that you think it should. I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed. The issue is more involved than that though. We do not know how many journeys and at what value were undertaken prior to 0930 in terms of determining what cap applies and then what value of peak journeys would be added to the Z16 off peak cap. Why Z16, he only went out as far as Z5. There is no Z15 cap - don't you read those documents I provide links to? ;-) My only defence is that the numbers were printed sideways :( TfL rationalised the number of caps and zone combinations two years ago. So that explains why his fare total of £14.40 hadn't reached a cap yet. Averaging the 1-4 and 1-6 caps you'd have expected a Z5 cap at about £13.40 Another way to raise more revenue from farepayers. In particular those living in Z5. -- Roland Perry |
Capping mishandled
If nothing weird happens, like me getting stuck in a gate when I know I
have plenty of money on the Oyster, I assume the oyster is correct. Fewer headaches. |
Capping mishandled
Jack wrote
Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. Oyster has never been able to charge in the way that you think it should. I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed. "never been able" Cite please. Previous explanations of Oyster capping here and elsewhere showed this working as would be expected, with no cases where using two PAYG Oyster cards would give a lower cost. "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your journeys in one day." -- Mike D |
Capping mishandled
In message 01cd1bf1$5ddc4f40$LocalHost@default, at 23:31:24 on Mon, 16
Apr 2012, Michael R N Dolbear remarked: Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. Oyster has never been able to charge in the way that you think it should. I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed. "never been able" Cite please. Previous explanations of Oyster capping here and elsewhere showed this working as would be expected, with no cases where using two PAYG Oyster cards would give a lower cost. So how can we explain the OP's problem, where it would have been cheaper to charge for a Z1-4 plus a single journey 4-5? This seems likely to be a general issue, if that extra £1.40 journey causes the cap to rise from £10.80 to £16.00 -- Roland Perry |
Capping mishandled
On Apr 17, 12:31*am, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:
Jack wrote Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. *Oyster has never been able to charge in the way that you think it should. I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed. "never been able" Cite please. Previous explanations of Oyster capping here and elsewhere showed this working as would be expected, with no cases where using two PAYG Oyster cards would give a lower cost. * * "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your * * *journeys in one day." -- Mike D Cite please :-) Oyster PAYG has NEVER been programmed to charge for one zonal cap, e.g. Peak Z1-4 plus a single fare for a journey outside the cap reached, e.g. Z5. What it does do, assuming correct usage, no max journey times exceeded, no emergency OSI settings or OSIs causing 'circular journeys' is charge the lowest of: 1) all single journeys fares between 04:30 and 04:29:59 2) the Peak zonal cap for all journeys made between 04:30 and 04:29:59 the next day 3) the total of single fares for journeys started between 04:30 and 09:30 and the Off-Peak zonal cap for journeys made between 09:30 and 04:29:59 the next day. 4) the Bus & Tram cap for journeys started between 04:30 and 04:29:59 the next day plus any rail fares for journeys made between 04:30 and 04:29:59 the next day Oyster takes any discount(s) loaded into the card into account for single fare and cap calculation. The charging happens on the chip of the Oyster card during entry and exit transactions and not retrospectively. In other words, assuming no incorrect usage, no transaction errors and no OSI related issues, it cannot charge incorrectly. The only way to pay for one zonal cap plus a single fare for a rail journey outside that zonal cap would be to: 1) use two Oyster cards 2) use a paper Day Travelcard and touch in and out with an Oyster card for the one journey made outside the zones of the Day Travelcard |
Capping mishandled
On Apr 17, 11:56*am, Jack wrote:
On Apr 17, 12:31*am, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote: Jack wrote Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. *Oyster has never been able to charge in the way that you think it should. I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed. "never been able" Cite please. Previous explanations of Oyster capping here and elsewhere showed this working as would be expected, with no cases where using two PAYG Oyster cards would give a lower cost. * * "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your * * *journeys in one day." -- Mike D Cite please :-) Oyster PAYG has NEVER been programmed to charge for one zonal cap, e.g. Peak Z1-4 plus a single fare for a journey outside the cap reached, e.g. Z5. What it does do, assuming correct usage, no max journey times exceeded, no emergency OSI settings or OSIs causing 'circular journeys' is charge the lowest of: 1) all single journeys fares between 04:30 and 04:29:59 2) the Peak zonal cap for all journeys made between 04:30 and 04:29:59 the next day 3) the total of single fares for journeys started between 04:30 and 09:30 and the Off-Peak zonal cap for journeys made between 09:30 and 04:29:59 the next day. 4) the Bus & Tram cap for journeys started between 04:30 and 04:29:59 the next day plus any rail fares for journeys made between 04:30 and 04:29:59 the next day Oyster takes any discount(s) loaded into the card into account for single fare and cap calculation. The charging happens on the chip of the Oyster card during entry and exit transactions and not retrospectively. *In other words, assuming no incorrect usage, no transaction errors and no OSI related issues, it cannot charge incorrectly. The only way to pay for one zonal cap plus a single fare for a rail journey outside that zonal cap would be to: 1) use two Oyster cards 2) use a paper Day Travelcard and touch in and out with an Oyster card for the one journey made outside the zones of the Day Travelcard If the card had capped at £12, and then the OP had then made a single journey between any combination of zones 2-6, the total charge would have been £13.40. Based on the OP's information and all the available non-discounted single fares, this is not what happened. The card never reached the Z1-4 cap. |
Capping mishandled
On Apr 17, 11:56*am, Jack wrote:
On Apr 17, 12:31*am, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote: Jack wrote Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. *Oyster has never been able to charge in the way that you think it should. I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed. "never been able" Cite please. Previous explanations of Oyster capping here and elsewhere showed this working as would be expected, with no cases where using two PAYG Oyster cards would give a lower cost. * * "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your * * *journeys in one day." -- Mike D Cite please :-) Oyster PAYG has NEVER been programmed to charge for one zonal cap, e.g. Peak Z1-4 plus a single fare for a journey outside the cap reached, e.g. Z5. What it does do, assuming correct usage, no max journey times exceeded, no emergency OSI settings or OSIs causing 'circular journeys' is charge the lowest of: 1) all single journeys fares between 04:30 and 04:29:59 2) the Peak zonal cap for all journeys made between 04:30 and 04:29:59 the next day 3) the total of single fares for journeys started between 04:30 and 09:30 and the Off-Peak zonal cap for journeys made between 09:30 and 04:29:59 the next day. 4) the Bus & Tram cap for journeys started between 04:30 and 04:29:59 the next day plus any rail fares for journeys made between 04:30 and 04:29:59 the next day Oyster takes any discount(s) loaded into the card into account for single fare and cap calculation. The charging happens on the chip of the Oyster card during entry and exit transactions and not retrospectively. *In other words, assuming no incorrect usage, no transaction errors and no OSI related issues, it cannot charge incorrectly. The only way to pay for one zonal cap plus a single fare for a rail journey outside that zonal cap would be to: 1) use two Oyster cards 2) use a paper Day Travelcard and touch in and out with an Oyster card for the one journey made outside the zones of the Day Travelcard If the card had capped at £12, and then the OP had then made a single journey between any combination of zones 2-6, the total charge would have been £13.40. Based on the OP's information and all the available non-discounted single fares, this is not what happened. The card never reached the Z1-4 cap. |
Capping mishandled
On Apr 17, 11:56*am, Jack wrote:
On Apr 17, 12:31*am, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote: Jack wrote Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. *Oyster has never been able to charge in the way that you think it should. I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed. "never been able" Cite please. Previous explanations of Oyster capping here and elsewhere showed this working as would be expected, with no cases where using two PAYG Oyster cards would give a lower cost. * * "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your * * *journeys in one day." -- Mike D Cite please :-) Oyster PAYG has NEVER been programmed to charge for one zonal cap, e.g. Peak Z1-4 plus a single fare for a journey outside the cap reached, e.g. Z5. What it does do, assuming correct usage, no max journey times exceeded, no emergency OSI settings or OSIs causing 'circular journeys' is charge the lowest of: 1) all single journeys fares between 04:30 and 04:29:59 2) the Peak zonal cap for all journeys made between 04:30 and 04:29:59 the next day 3) the total of single fares for journeys started between 04:30 and 09:30 and the Off-Peak zonal cap for journeys made between 09:30 and 04:29:59 the next day. 4) the Bus & Tram cap for journeys started between 04:30 and 04:29:59 the next day plus any rail fares for journeys made between 04:30 and 04:29:59 the next day Oyster takes any discount(s) loaded into the card into account for single fare and cap calculation. The charging happens on the chip of the Oyster card during entry and exit transactions and not retrospectively. *In other words, assuming no incorrect usage, no transaction errors and no OSI related issues, it cannot charge incorrectly. The only way to pay for one zonal cap plus a single fare for a rail journey outside that zonal cap would be to: 1) use two Oyster cards 2) use a paper Day Travelcard and touch in and out with an Oyster card for the one journey made outside the zones of the Day Travelcard The only time Oyster could have charged £12.00 in the way the OP expected it to, is if the Z1-4 Peak cap had already been applied for the day, and then one Off-Peak Tube journey between a Z5 or Z6 station and a station in Z2-Z6, not passing through Z1 had been made. Then the total charge would have been £13.40. |
Capping mishandled
On Apr 17, 12:15*pm, Jack wrote:
On Apr 17, 11:56*am, Jack wrote: On Apr 17, 12:31*am, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote: Jack wrote Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. *Oyster has never been able to charge in the way that you think it should. I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed. "never been able" Cite please. Previous explanations of Oyster capping here and elsewhere showed this working as would be expected, with no cases where using two PAYG Oyster cards would give a lower cost. * * "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your * * *journeys in one day." -- Mike D Cite please :-) Oyster PAYG has NEVER been programmed to charge for one zonal cap, e.g. Peak Z1-4 plus a single fare for a journey outside the cap reached, e.g. Z5. What it does do, assuming correct usage, no max journey times exceeded, no emergency OSI settings or OSIs causing 'circular journeys' is charge the lowest of: 1) all single journeys fares between 04:30 and 04:29:59 2) the Peak zonal cap for all journeys made between 04:30 and 04:29:59 the next day 3) the total of single fares for journeys started between 04:30 and 09:30 and the Off-Peak zonal cap for journeys made between 09:30 and 04:29:59 the next day. 4) the Bus & Tram cap for journeys started between 04:30 and 04:29:59 the next day plus any rail fares for journeys made between 04:30 and 04:29:59 the next day Oyster takes any discount(s) loaded into the card into account for single fare and cap calculation. The charging happens on the chip of the Oyster card during entry and exit transactions and not retrospectively. *In other words, assuming no incorrect usage, no transaction errors and no OSI related issues, it cannot charge incorrectly. The only way to pay for one zonal cap plus a single fare for a rail journey outside that zonal cap would be to: 1) use two Oyster cards 2) use a paper Day Travelcard and touch in and out with an Oyster card for the one journey made outside the zones of the Day Travelcard The only time Oyster could have charged £12.00 in the way the OP expected it to, is if the Z1-4 Peak cap had already been applied for the day, and then one Off-Peak Tube journey between a Z5 or Z6 station and a station in Z2-Z6, not passing through Z1 had been made. *Then the total charge would have been £13.40. Oyster cannot retrospectively apply a Z1-4 cap when a Z5 journey has already been made earlier in the day |
Capping mishandled
In message
s.com of Mon, 16 Apr 2012 02:18:40 in uk.transport.london, Jack writes On Apr 13, 12:46*pm, Walter Briscoe wrote: I made many LU journeys in Z1-4 and one costing 1.40 to Z5. I was charged 14.40, rather than 12.00 - the Z1-4 cap + 1.40. Oyster helpdesk staff took a few days to agree that I had been overcharged and agreed an ex gratia payment for the inconvenience. The payments were delayed for an extra day as they needed "approval". Automatic overpayment detection does not recognise the situation. OTOH, there are discrepancies between the Single Fare Finder and Oyster. (Oyster charges less.) Moorgate - Queens Road Peckham peak shows as 3.80 but charges 3.70. It seems there were recent changes to charges between LU & NR. The Single Fare Finder has not been updated to reflect those changes. -- Walter Briscoe Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. Oyster has never been able to charge in the way that you think it should. That is probably true. Why? I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed. It was not. I got back to the relevant officer to establish the situation. It seems I misunderstood. Regards, Jack The relevant words seem to be "If you make lots of pay as you go journeys in one day, we'll make sure you never pay more than the price of an equivalent Day Travelcard" in http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14837 ..aspx. The equivalent Day Travelcard would have been z1-6 peak on your reckoning. You seem to suggest that I should have bought a Z1-4 paper Travelcard and made a Z4-Z5 PAYG journey or travel with two Oysters. I believe you are right I think the revenue difference is trivial and the additional complexity of implementing my sort of capping is huge. I think that each underground/national rail journey is measured against one relevant cap. My method measures each journey against all possible caps and select the lowest fare. I could not believe it was so complicated when I coded it. In some ways, I am glad it is not. ;) -- Walter Briscoe |
Capping mishandled
On Apr 16, 11:58*am, Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 02:18:40 -0700 (PDT), Jack wrote: On Apr 13, 12:46*pm, Walter Briscoe wrote: I made many LU journeys in Z1-4 and one costing 1.40 to Z5. I was charged 14.40, rather than 12.00 - the Z1-4 cap + 1.40. Oyster helpdesk staff took a few days to agree that I had been overcharged and agreed an ex gratia payment for the inconvenience. The payments were delayed for an extra day as they needed "approval". Automatic overpayment detection does not recognise the situation. OTOH, there are discrepancies between the Single Fare Finder and Oyster. |
Capping mishandled
On Apr 17, 12:31*am, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:
Jack wrote Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. *Oyster has never been able to charge in the way that you think it should. I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed. "never been able" Cite please. Previous explanations of Oyster capping here and elsewhere showed this working as would be expected, with no cases where using two PAYG Oyster cards would give a lower cost. * * "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your * * *journeys in one day." -- Mike D Clearly TfL have to strike a balance between providing technically accurate information about how Oyster PAYG actually works and an easily digestible message for the majority of users. Perhaps the balance is too far towards simplification at the moment? The Oyster card charges single fares and caps in real time during entry and exit transactions. |
Capping mishandled
In message
, at 04:04:55 on Tue, 17 Apr 2012, Jack remarked: If the card had capped at £12, and then the OP had then made a single journey between any combination of zones 2-6, the total charge would have been £13.40. Based on the OP's information and all the available non-discounted single fares, this is not what happened. The card never reached the Z1-4 cap. The Z1-4 cap is £10.80, so it *had* exceeded that, because before the final £1.40 fare the total would have been £13.00 ps I'm now getting confused as to why the OP thinks the Z1-4 cap is £12. -- Roland Perry |
Capping mishandled
On Apr 17, 2:23*pm, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 04:04:55 on Tue, 17 Apr 2012, Jack remarked: If the card had capped at £12, and then the OP had then made a single journey between any combination of zones 2-6, the total charge would have been £13.40. Based on the OP's information and all the available non-discounted single fares, this is not what happened. *The card never reached the Z1-4 cap. The Z1-4 cap is £10.80, so it *had* exceeded that, because before the final £1.40 fare the total would have been £13.00 ps I'm now getting confused as to why the OP thinks the Z1-4 cap is £12.. -- Roland Perry Yes, I did not refer to the fares tables and used the wrong figures in that post. The Peak 1-4 cap is £10.60. £12 could have been charged if the 1-4 cap had been applied and after that, a single Tube only Off-Peak journey between a station in Z5 or Z6 and a station in zones 2-6 was made (£1.40) |
Capping mishandled
In message
, at 07:23:38 on Tue, 17 Apr 2012, Jack remarked: Yes, I did not refer to the fares tables and used the wrong figures in that post. The Peak 1-4 cap is £10.60. £12 could have been charged if the 1-4 cap had been applied and after that, a single Tube only Off-Peak journey between a station in Z5 or Z6 and a station in zones 2-6 was made (£1.40) But why did the total jump all the way from £12 to £14.40 (not £13.40) when a further £1.40 fare was added? Or was that indeed an error (as vaguely confirm by the helpline's refund)? The earlier suggestion was that Oyster was looking at the possibility of him having reached the Z6 cap (£16) but as he was short of that, charged the sum of all his singles instead. -- Roland Perry |
Capping mishandled
Jack wrote [...] Oyster cannot retrospectively apply a Z1-4 cap when a Z5 journey has already been made earlier in the day This seems to be entirely your invention, not anything official, the standard view being that all caps are applied all the time so suggesting retroactive fare setting is needed is confused. Oyster axioms include "no negative fares" and/or "order doesn't matter" but that not the same thing. My files produced ========= From: Mr Thant 02 Dec 2009 is that each journey you pay for contributes to all of the possible caps that might apply, and if any of those caps is reached you only pay the difference (or zero). {lots more} == And no one on uktl from that day to this has queried that all possible caps can apply all the time so a Z1-4 cap is quite independent of any Z5 or Z6 journeys that may have been taken. -- Mike D |
Capping mishandled
Roland Perry wrote on Mon, 16 Apr 2012, Michael R N Dolbear remarked: Cite please. Previous explanations of Oyster capping here and elsewhere showed this working as would be expected, with no cases where using two PAYG Oyster cards would give a lower cost. So how can we explain the OP's problem, where it would have been cheaper to charge for a Z1-4 plus a single journey 4-5? No idea, perhaps submit a FoI request for the number of refunds that invoked the Oyster G'tee ? If it was just a glitch, I may remark that in my thirty years as a System programmer I proved the existence of a hardware error (that didn't crash the system) precisely twice. -- Mike D |
Capping mishandled
In message 01cd1ce7$ef07c7a0$LocalHost@default, at 22:33:37 on Tue, 17
Apr 2012, Michael R N Dolbear remarked: If it was just a glitch, I may remark that in my thirty years as a System programmer I proved the existence of a hardware error (that didn't crash the system) precisely twice. Software errors are far more common, however. -- Roland Perry |
Capping mishandled
In message 01cd1ce7$0b1bb240$LocalHost@default, at 22:33:35 on Tue, 17
Apr 2012, Michael R N Dolbear remarked: no one on uktl from that day to this has queried that all possible caps can apply all the time so a Z1-4 cap is quite independent of any Z5 or Z6 journeys that may have been taken. Until the OP's example, of course. -- Roland Perry |
Capping mishandled
In message of Mon, 16 Apr
2012 12:58:22 in uk.transport.london, Jarle H Knudsen writes On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 02:18:40 -0700 (PDT), Jack wrote: On Apr 13, 12:46*pm, Walter Briscoe wrote: I made many LU journeys in Z1-4 and one costing 1.40 to Z5. I was charged 14.40, rather than 12.00 - the Z1-4 cap + 1.40. Oyster helpdesk staff took a few days to agree that I had been overcharged and agreed an ex gratia payment for the inconvenience. The payments were delayed for an extra day as they needed "approval". Automatic overpayment detection does not recognise the situation. OTOH, there are discrepancies between the Single Fare Finder and Oyster. (Oyster charges less.) Moorgate - Queens Road Peckham peak shows as 3.80 but charges 3.70. It seems there were recent changes to charges between LU & NR. The Single Fare Finder has not been updated to reflect those changes. -- Walter Briscoe Re. your refund - this would have been purely goodwill. Oyster has never been able to charge in the way that you think it should. I hope this was made clear to you when the refund was agreed. Zone 1-4 + an extra single journey is how I assumed the worked too, but I'm apparently mistaken. Does TfL explain exactly how it works anywhere? This page, http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14837.aspx , states "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your journeys in one day." A zone 1-4 travelcard plus a single oyster fare would have been the cheapest alternative. I missed those words and am grateful to Jarle H Knudsen for reminding me of them. I would value comments from Jack on them, given his assertion that my refund was merely goodwill. You are capped at the price of a travelcard to cover all your journeys. I believe the cheapest combination of fares for my journeys was 10.60 for a z1-4 travelcard and a 1.40 payg fare rather than the 14.40 which was the total price of my payg journeys. I started in peak hours, spent 10.20 in z1-4 ending in off-peak hours, 1.40 in z4-5, and 2.80 in z1-4. Off peak caps do not apply as my off- peak spending was less than the minimum off-peak cap of 7.70. Relevant peak caps are 10.60 in z1-4 and 15.80 in z1-6. Once you have travelled in z5-6, the z1-4 peak cap is ignored. In summary, I paid 14.40 in total; 13.00 was in z1-4 and 1.40 went into z5-6. My refund was 2.40 to match a z1-4 10.60 cap + 1.40 outside z1-4. -- Walter Briscoe |
Capping mishandled
In message , at 13:23:53 on
Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Paul Corfield remarked: The rules say that capping aligns to the equivalent One Day Travelcard. I have checked this against TfL documents that I have about Oyster ticketing rules. That's a plausible rule (a bit severe on people making just one trip outside Z4, but that's another issue), but isn't consistent with claims that: "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your journeys in one day." .... which should be removed from the literature. -- Roland Perry |
Capping mishandled
In message , Paul Corfield
wrote: The way that I understand capping works is that your set of journeys would a) set the peak cap because you travelled prior to 0930. b) set the zonal cap initially at Z14 which would then give you a cap of £10.60 to meet. Your peak journeys (£10.20) did not do this so the next trip, *if within Z14* would then trigger the peak Z14 cap. c) However your next journey was to Zone 5 so the cap rises to Z16 peak cap at £15.80. d) Your subsequent journeys would all continue to be added to your balance for the day until you exceeded £15.80. Therefore the charge of £14.40 is actually correct. So if the OP had done lots of Z14 journeys (let's say 30 of them during the day) and then one single Z45 journey, the sequence would have been: b) Set the cap at £10.60 and cap all those journeys. c) When the last journey was made, change the cap to £15.80 and make the single charge of £1.40 for that journey. Is that right? Or will it suddenly jump the charge to £15.80 on that last journey? If I'm right, then you're saying that the order in which journeys are made alters the fare. That seems a little unreasonable to me. If the charge suddenly jumps, that would be somewhat surprising. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Capping mishandled
In message of Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:21:08
in uk.transport.london, Roland Perry writes In message , at 13:23:53 on Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Paul Corfield remarked: The rules say that capping aligns to the equivalent One Day Travelcard. I have checked this against TfL documents that I have about Oyster ticketing rules. That's a plausible rule (a bit severe on people making just one trip outside Z4, but that's another issue), but isn't consistent with claims that: "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your journeys in one day." ... which should be removed from the literature. I have just had a response to a ticket I raised with the Oyster Customer Service Cent "... I can confirm that the daily price capping page has been updated ..." I have checked and find "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your journeys in one day." no longer appears in http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14837.aspx -- Walter Briscoe |
Capping mishandled
In message , at 14:23:17 on Tue, 24
Apr 2012, Walter Briscoe remarked: "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your journeys in one day." ... which should be removed from the literature. I have just had a response to a ticket I raised with the Oyster Customer Service Cent "... I can confirm that the daily price capping page has been updated ..." I have checked and find "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your journeys in one day." no longer appears in http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14837.aspx Well done. And a much quoted myth is therefore completely and utterly exploded. Are they going to apologise to the last several years worth of misled customers? -- Roland Perry |
Capping mishandled
In message of Tue, 24 Apr 2012 14:54:27
in uk.transport.london, Roland Perry writes In message , at 14:23:17 on Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Walter Briscoe remarked: "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your journeys in one day." ... which should be removed from the literature. I have just had a response to a ticket I raised with the Oyster Customer Service Cent "... I can confirm that the daily price capping page has been updated ..." I have checked and find "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your journeys in one day." no longer appears in http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14837.aspx Well done. Thank you. And a much quoted myth is therefore completely and utterly exploded. I think you exaggerate. It is probably an unusual issue. A well- constructed FOI question might put it in context. Meanwhile, I have raised the matter with London Travelwatch. I want the words reinstated and to describe the truth. If Oyster does not have that capability, I want automatic refunds to recognise the situation. Are they going to apologise to the last several years worth of misled customers? When pigs fly! I recently found something interesting. My z1-2 travel was capped. I went from Moorgate to London Bridge, spent £0.01 in the National Rail platform 6 toilet and returned to Moorgate. My journey was charged at 9.20 due to the well known OSI issue. 4 days later, I was refunded 7.20, after LU ticket office staff had not had the power to resolve the issue. It seems that automatic refunds do not deal with capping. I have since been given the £2.00. -- Walter Briscoe |
Capping mishandled
In message , at 19:35:32 on
Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Paul Corfield remarked: Why do you or Roland consider that there is any need for an apology or refund? Because it's now clear that Oyster doesn't charge you the "cheapest combination of fares for a day's journeys", it charges you the "cheapest Travelcard that would have covered your day's journeys", which can be significantly more. -- Roland Perry |
Capping mishandled
In message , at 19:23:31 on
Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Paul Corfield remarked: The One Day Travelcard does not go back and recalculate all the journeys and then refund you money if your original purchase decision somehow doesn't end up being as good value for money as you thought it would. Quite why people think capping works in this retrospective manner I know not. Because Oyster is supposed to be clever, and they promised "Oyster will work out the cheapest combination of fares for all your journeys in one day." If that's a Z2 cap plus a single to Z4, rather than a Z4 cap, surely it's not beyond the wit of their computers to charge what they promised? -- Roland Perry |
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