A Stock Finale
 

On Apr 24, 9:45*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Guy Gorton" wrote

When I was a regular user many years ago, there were fasts to
Uxbridge, first stop from Baker Street was Rayners Lane. *Morning
fasts non-stop Rayners Lane to Baker Street. *My destination was Baker
Street but I think I remember that the fasts in both directions were
City trains.

Into the 1970s in the peaks Amersham and Chesham fasts ran non-stop from
Moor Park to Finchley Road, and there were Watfords fast from North Harrow
as well as the Uxbridges fast from Rayners Lane. All these ran to the City
(Amershams and Cheshams terminated in the long-lost bay at Liverpool
Street). There were a few Uxbridge stoppers which ran to Aldgate, but all
other stoppers terminated at Baker Street. Off-peak and weekends everything
terminated at Baker Street. Didn't they split and run as 4-cars off-peak?

Yes, I recall the short trains. The four car units had cabs at both
ends. The three car units had a cab at one end. Daytime services
were four car only.

A Stock Finale
 

"77002" wrote

Yes, I recall the short trains. The four car units had cabs at both
ends. The three car units had a cab at one end. Daytime services
were four car only.

AIUI the A stock were always in 4-car sets and originally had operative cabs
at both ends. Until quite recently a few units were kept with operative cabs
at both ends, to work the Chesham branch diagram, and they were also used in
4-car formation when they worked the East London Line. But for many years
most units have had an operative cab at one end only, so have been used
exclusively in 8-car formation.

Peter

A Stock Finale
 

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 04:58:16 -0700 (PDT), 77002
wrote:

On Apr 24, 9:45*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Guy Gorton" wrote

When I was a regular user many years ago, there were fasts to
Uxbridge, first stop from Baker Street was Rayners Lane. *Morning
fasts non-stop Rayners Lane to Baker Street. *My destination was Baker
Street but I think I remember that the fasts in both directions were
City trains.

Into the 1970s in the peaks Amersham and Chesham fasts ran non-stop from
Moor Park to Finchley Road, and there were Watfords fast from North Harrow
as well as the Uxbridges fast from Rayners Lane. All these ran to the City
(Amershams and Cheshams terminated in the long-lost bay at Liverpool
Street). There were a few Uxbridge stoppers which ran to Aldgate, but all
other stoppers terminated at Baker Street. Off-peak and weekends everything
terminated at Baker Street. Didn't they split and run as 4-cars off-peak?

Yes, I recall the short trains. The four car units had cabs at both
ends. The three car units had a cab at one end. Daytime services
were four car only.

All the A stock trains were either 4 or 8-car (no 3-car units). I seem
to recall that the 4-car double-ended unit trains ran mainly at
weekends (in the 1970s, I lived in a flat that had a distant view of
the Met line).

A Stock Finale
 

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 13:12:09 +0100
"Peter Masson" wrote:
4-car formation when they worked the East London Line. But for many years
most units have had an operative cab at one end only, so have been used
exclusively in 8-car formation.

When you say only one operative , do you mean the other didn't work at all
or just didn't have the equipment to be used in passenger service but could
still be used to move the train in an emergency?

B2003

A Stock Finale
 

In message , at 13:13:46 on
Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Recliner remarked:
All the A stock trains were either 4 or 8-car (no 3-car units). I seem
to recall that the 4-car double-ended unit trains ran mainly at
weekends (in the 1970s, I lived in a flat that had a distant view of
the Met line).

I used A-stock to get to London and back (often outside normal commuting
hours) in the 90's, and don't recall ever seeing a short unit.
--
Roland Perry

A Stock Finale
 

On Apr 24, 1:47*pm, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:13:46 on
Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Recliner remarked:

All the A stock trains were either 4 or 8-car (no 3-car units). I seem
to recall that the 4-car double-ended unit trains ran mainly at
weekends (in the 1970s, I lived in a flat that had a distant view of
the Met line).

I used A-stock to get to London and back (often outside normal commuting
hours) in the 90's, and don't recall ever seeing a short unit.

My recollections are from the 1970s Roland.

A Stock Finale
 

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 13:47:46 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 13:13:46 on
Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Recliner remarked:
All the A stock trains were either 4 or 8-car (no 3-car units). I seem
to recall that the 4-car double-ended unit trains ran mainly at
weekends (in the 1970s, I lived in a flat that had a distant view of
the Met line).

I used A-stock to get to London and back (often outside normal commuting
hours) in the 90's, and don't recall ever seeing a short unit.

I think 4-car usage stopped by then on the mainline (ie, excluding the
Chesham shuttle and ELL). Uncoupling went out of fashion on LU by the
1980s.

A Stock Finale
 

On Apr 24, 1:12*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"77002" wrote



Yes, I recall the short trains. *The four car units had cabs at both
ends. *The three car units had a cab at one end. *Daytime services
were four car only.

AIUI the A stock were always in 4-car sets and originally had operative cabs
at both ends. Until quite recently a few units were kept with operative cabs
at both ends, to work the Chesham branch diagram, and they were also used in
4-car formation when they worked the East London Line. But for many years
most units have had an operative cab at one end only, so have been used
exclusively in 8-car formation.


Thank you for the correction Peter.

In the late seventys I was privalidged to have an extended visit to
Neasden Depot. I remember some discussion about 3 car and four car
sets. I wonder if this may have related to Bakerloo Line stock.

A Stock Finale
 

On Apr 24, 1:12*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"77002" wrote



Yes, I recall the short trains. *The four car units had cabs at both
ends. *The three car units had a cab at one end. *Daytime services
were four car only.

AIUI the A stock were always in 4-car sets and originally had operative cabs
at both ends. Until quite recently a few units were kept with operative cabs
at both ends, to work the Chesham branch diagram, and they were also used in
4-car formation when they worked the East London Line. But for many years
most units have had an operative cab at one end only, so have been used
exclusively in 8-car formation.


Thank you for the correction Peter.
In the late seventies I was privileged to have an extended visit to
Neasden Depot. I remember some discussion about 3 car and four car
sets. I wonder if this may have related to Bakerloo Line stock.

A Stock Finale
 

On 24/04/2012 14:05, 77002 wrote:
On Apr 24, 1:47 pm, Roland wrote:
In , at 13:13:46 on
Tue, 24 Apr 2012, remarked:

All the A stock trains were either 4 or 8-car (no 3-car units). I seem
to recall that the 4-car double-ended unit trains ran mainly at
weekends (in the 1970s, I lived in a flat that had a distant view of
the Met line).

I used A-stock to get to London and back (often outside normal commuting
hours) in the 90's, and don't recall ever seeing a short unit.

My recollections are from the 1970s Roland.

I used to see them at Amersham on my way to school when they were first
introduced. I don't recall any short sets but I only saw them weekdays.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

A Stock Finale
 

"77002" wrote

In the late seventys I was privalidged to have an extended visit to
Neasden Depot. I remember some discussion about 3 car and four car
sets. I wonder if this may have related to Bakerloo Line stock.

You are probably correct about the Bakerloo being 4+3, though I don't think
any LT trains in Central London (apart from the Aldwych branch) have run at
anything other than full length since WW2.

Short trains of tube stock have run since WW2:
Epping - Ongar (3-car)
Hainault to Woodford when it was a self-contained shuttle
Holborn - Aldwych
East London Line, during the period after ancient District stock was used
until A stock took over.
Acton Town - South Acton was worked by single car units of sub-surface
stock.

Peter

A Stock Finale
 

On Apr 24, 5:14*pm, bob wrote:
On 2012-04-24 12:12:09 +0000, Peter Masson said:

"77002" wrote

Yes, I recall the short trains. *The four car units had cabs at both
ends. *The three car units had a cab at one end. *Daytime services
were four car only.

AIUI the A stock were always in 4-car sets and originally had operative
cabs at both ends. Until quite recently a few units were kept with
operative cabs at both ends, to work the Chesham branch diagram, and
they were also used in 4-car formation when they worked the East London
Line. But for many years most units have had an operative cab at one
end only, so have been used exclusively in 8-car formation.

My understanding is that the deactivation (in passenger service) of the
cabs at one end of most of the units happenned when the units were
converted to driver only operation. *In driver-and-guard operation, the
door controls were at the opposite end of the driving motor cars from
the cab, hence the single doors at that location (unlike the trailer
cars that have three double doors per side, none at the ends). *When
DOO was introduced, single units were no longer generally used other
than for the East London line and the Chesham shuttle, so apart from
the units used for those services, the units only had door controls
installed in one cab per unit, with the other cab coupled at the inner
end of a double set.

Tank you for the clarrification.

A Stock Finale
 

In article ,
(Recliner) wrote:

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 13:47:46 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 13:13:46 on
Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Recliner remarked:
All the A stock trains were either 4 or 8-car (no 3-car units). I seem
to recall that the 4-car double-ended unit trains ran mainly at
weekends (in the 1970s, I lived in a flat that had a distant view of
the Met line).

I used A-stock to get to London and back (often outside normal commuting
hours) in the 90's, and don't recall ever seeing a short unit.

I think 4-car usage stopped by then on the mainline (ie, excluding the
Chesham shuttle and ELL). Uncoupling went out of fashion on LU by the
1980s.

Nevertheless, when the A stock was refurbished, most had only one cab
modernised with the other becoming disused. Some double-ended units, with
both cabs remaining usable, were created in similar fashion to the D stock
which is a mix, mainly of three car units with one cab at one end but with a
few units with driving cars at both ends.

While some of the double cab A stock units were used on the Chesham shuttle
and East London Line services, most were run as part of 8-car trains on the
Met main line. I saw one last time I was at King's Cross last week. I don't
think the double-cab D stock units have ever been run on their own in
passenger service.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

A Stock Finale
 

In article ,
(Peter Masson) wrote:

"77002" wrote

In the late seventys I was privalidged to have an extended visit to
Neasden Depot. I remember some discussion about 3 car and four car
sets. I wonder if this may have related to Bakerloo Line stock.

You are probably correct about the Bakerloo being 4+3, though I don't
think any LT trains in Central London (apart from the Aldwych branch)
have run at anything other than full length since WW2.

Short trains of tube stock have run since WW2:
Epping - Ongar (3-car)
Hainault to Woodford when it was a self-contained shuttle
Holborn - Aldwych
East London Line, during the period after ancient District stock was
used until A stock took over.

ELL had short formations of Met F stock before the Q District stock took
over in the early 1960s until 1971.

The Olympia shuttle used four-car sets for a time in the 1950s if not later.

Acton Town - South Acton was worked by single car units of
sub-surface stock.

Uncoupling on tube lines continued after WW2. I think the last was the GNC
in the 1960s. If you include surface lines, uncoupling on the District
continued into the 1970s.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

A Stock Finale
 

wrote:
In article ,
(Recliner) wrote:

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 13:47:46 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 13:13:46 on
Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Recliner remarked:
All the A stock trains were either 4 or 8-car (no 3-car units). I seem
to recall that the 4-car double-ended unit trains ran mainly at
weekends (in the 1970s, I lived in a flat that had a distant view of
the Met line).

I used A-stock to get to London and back (often outside normal commuting
hours) in the 90's, and don't recall ever seeing a short unit.

I think 4-car usage stopped by then on the mainline (ie, excluding the
Chesham shuttle and ELL). Uncoupling went out of fashion on LU by the
1980s.

Nevertheless, when the A stock was refurbished, most had only one cab
modernised with the other becoming disused. Some double-ended units, with
both cabs remaining usable, were created in similar fashion to the D stock
which is a mix, mainly of three car units with one cab at one end but with a
few units with driving cars at both ends.

While some of the double cab A stock units were used on the Chesham shuttle
and East London Line services, most were run as part of 8-car trains on the
Met main line. I saw one last time I was at King's Cross last week. I don't
think the double-cab D stock units have ever been run on their own in
passenger service.

Not even when D stock looked after the ELL?

Lew.

A Stock Finale
 

On 24/04/2012 12:58, 77002 wrote:
On Apr 24, 9:45 am, "Peter wrote:
"Guy wrote

When I was a regular user many years ago, there were fasts to
Uxbridge, first stop from Baker Street was Rayners Lane. Morning
fasts non-stop Rayners Lane to Baker Street. My destination was Baker
Street but I think I remember that the fasts in both directions were
City trains.

Into the 1970s in the peaks Amersham and Chesham fasts ran non-stop from
Moor Park to Finchley Road, and there were Watfords fast from North Harrow
as well as the Uxbridges fast from Rayners Lane. All these ran to the City
(Amershams and Cheshams terminated in the long-lost bay at Liverpool
Street). There were a few Uxbridge stoppers which ran to Aldgate, but all
other stoppers terminated at Baker Street. Off-peak and weekends everything
terminated at Baker Street. Didn't they split and run as 4-cars off-peak?

Yes, I recall the short trains. The four car units had cabs at both
ends. The three car units had a cab at one end. Daytime services
were four car only.

Unless I misunderstood you, how could those trains have turned if they
only had a cab at one end?

A Stock Finale
 

In article
,
lid () wrote:

wrote:
In article ,
(Recliner) wrote:

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 13:47:46 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 13:13:46
on Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Recliner remarked:
All the A stock trains were either 4 or 8-car (no 3-car units). I
seem to recall that the 4-car double-ended unit trains ran mainly at
weekends (in the 1970s, I lived in a flat that had a distant view of
the Met line).

I used A-stock to get to London and back (often outside normal
commuting hours) in the 90's, and don't recall ever seeing a short
unit.

I think 4-car usage stopped by then on the mainline (ie, excluding the
Chesham shuttle and ELL). Uncoupling went out of fashion on LU by the
1980s.

Nevertheless, when the A stock was refurbished, most had only one
cab modernised with the other becoming disused. Some double-ended
units, with both cabs remaining usable, were created in similar
fashion to the D stock which is a mix, mainly of three car units
with one cab at one end but with a few units with driving cars at
both ends.

While some of the double cab A stock units were used on the Chesham
shuttle and East London Line services, most were run as part of
8-car trains on the Met main line. I saw one last time I was at
King's Cross last week. I don't think the double-cab D stock units
have ever been run on their own in passenger service.

Not even when D stock looked after the ELL?

I don't remember that. When and for how long was D stock used there?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

A Stock Finale
 

In article , () wrote:

On 24/04/2012 12:58, 77002 wrote:

Yes, I recall the short trains. The four car units had cabs at both
ends. The three car units had a cab at one end. Daytime services
were four car only.

Unless I misunderstood you, how could those trains have turned if
they only had a cab at one end?

They couldn't. Most tube stock was handed until fairly recently and could
only couple the right way round.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

A Stock Finale
 

On Apr 25, 12:39*am, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:

The Piccadilly still run them today in 3 car sets from Cockfosters to
the T4 loop for turning. *They are only the 'double ended units' only
though (8xx numbers) Granted they are out of public service but run
through the centre.



Please explain why a double ended unit needs to be turned especially
on a railway that would turn them with normal traffic anyway.

--
Nick

A Stock Finale
 

On 4月25日, 上�8時46分, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
In message
,
D7666 writes

On Apr 25, 12:39Â*am, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:

The Piccadilly still run them today in 3 car sets from Cockfosters to
the T4 loop for turning. Â*They are only the 'double ended units' only
though (8xx numbers) Granted they are out of public service but run
through the centre.

Please explain why a double ended unit needs to be turned especially
on a railway that would turn them with normal traffic anyway.

73 stock are made up of 2 3 car units making the 6 car train. Â*They are
handed; A ends and D ends (A are even numbers and D are odd numbers). Â*A
double ended unit can match with either but has to be coupled A to A or
D to D.

If one of the double enders that has been matched with a D end unit now
needs to be reformed to match with an A end unit it will need to be
turned first, hence the little trip to T4.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

It is impressive to see how LUL saves depot space (?) by taking an
empty little train round a full trip, clearly wasting a lot of
electrical energy if I must say.

A Stock Finale
 

On Apr 25, 11:06Â*am, Patrickov wrote:
On 4月25日, 上�8時46分, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:





In message
,
D7666 writes

On Apr 25, 12:39Â*am, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:

The Piccadilly still run them today in 3 car sets from Cockfosters to
the T4 loop for turning. Â*They are only the 'double ended units' only
though (8xx numbers) Granted they are out of public service but run
through the centre.

Please explain why a double ended unit needs to be turned especially
on a railway that would turn them with normal traffic anyway.

73 stock are made up of 2 3 car units making the 6 car train. Â*They are
handed; A ends and D ends (A are even numbers and D are odd numbers). Â*A
double ended unit can match with either but has to be coupled A to A or
D to D.

If one of the double enders that has been matched with a D end unit now
needs to be reformed to match with an A end unit it will need to be
turned first, hence the little trip to T4.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

It is impressive to see how LUL saves depot space (?) by taking an
empty little train round a full trip, clearly wasting a lot of
electrical energy if I must say.

But how often does this actually need to be done? Having a turning
triangle in your depot that you very rarely use is going to wase a lot
of space, which is a significant cost. I imagine the number of
occasions on which a unit that needs to be turned, but can not be in
some way marshalled into a service train going round the Heathrow loop
is likely to be quite small, given lots of trains go round it every
day, so there will be routine turning of most of the fleet.

Robin

A Stock Finale
 

On 4月25日, 下�5時43分, bob wrote:
On Apr 25, 11:06Â*am, Patrickov wrote:









On 4月25日, 上�8時46分, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:

In message
,
D7666 writes

On Apr 25, 12:39Â*am, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:

The Piccadilly still run them today in 3 car sets from Cockfosters to
the T4 loop for turning. Â*They are only the 'double ended units' only
though (8xx numbers) Granted they are out of public service but run
through the centre.

Please explain why a double ended unit needs to be turned especially
on a railway that would turn them with normal traffic anyway.

73 stock are made up of 2 3 car units making the 6 car train. Â*They are
handed; A ends and D ends (A are even numbers and D are odd numbers). Â*A
double ended unit can match with either but has to be coupled A to A or
D to D.

If one of the double enders that has been matched with a D end unit now
needs to be reformed to match with an A end unit it will need to be
turned first, hence the little trip to T4.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

It is impressive to see how LUL saves depot space (?) by taking an
empty little train round a full trip, clearly wasting a lot of
electrical energy if I must say.

But how often does this actually need to be done? Â*Having a turning
triangle in your depot that you very rarely use is going to wase a lot
of space, which is a significant cost. Â*I imagine the number of
occasions on which a unit that needs to be turned, but can not be in
some way marshalled into a service train going round the Heathrow loop
is likely to be quite small, given lots of trains go round it every
day, so there will be routine turning of most of the fleet.

Robin

Maybe I am just stimulated by the statement of "Cockfosters to T4".
Had I seen something like Northfields then I'd say it's very much
reasonable. Thanks for your insight.

A Stock Finale
 

wrote:
In article
,
lid () wrote:

wrote:
In article ,
(Recliner) wrote:

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 13:47:46 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 13:13:46
on Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Recliner remarked:
All the A stock trains were either 4 or 8-car (no 3-car units). I
seem to recall that the 4-car double-ended unit trains ran mainly at
weekends (in the 1970s, I lived in a flat that had a distant view of
the Met line).

I used A-stock to get to London and back (often outside normal
commuting hours) in the 90's, and don't recall ever seeing a short
unit.

I think 4-car usage stopped by then on the mainline (ie, excluding the
Chesham shuttle and ELL). Uncoupling went out of fashion on LU by the
1980s.

Nevertheless, when the A stock was refurbished, most had only one
cab modernised with the other becoming disused. Some double-ended
units, with both cabs remaining usable, were created in similar
fashion to the D stock which is a mix, mainly of three car units
with one cab at one end but with a few units with driving cars at
both ends.

While some of the double cab A stock units were used on the Chesham
shuttle and East London Line services, most were run as part of
8-car trains on the Met main line. I saw one last time I was at
King's Cross last week. I don't think the double-cab D stock units
have ever been run on their own in passenger service.

Not even when D stock looked after the ELL?

I don't remember that. When and for how long was D stock used there?

From Tuneprunes D stock page:

Some were used as 3-car trains on the East London Line between April 1985
and May 1987.

Lew.

A Stock Finale
 

In article ,
(Lew 1) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
lid () wrote:

wrote:
In article ,
(Recliner) wrote:

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 13:47:46 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 13:13:46
on Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Recliner remarked:
All the A stock trains were either 4 or 8-car (no 3-car units). I
seem to recall that the 4-car double-ended unit trains ran mainly
at weekends (in the 1970s, I lived in a flat that had a distant
view of the Met line).

I used A-stock to get to London and back (often outside normal
commuting hours) in the 90's, and don't recall ever seeing a short
unit.

I think 4-car usage stopped by then on the mainline (ie, excluding
the Chesham shuttle and ELL). Uncoupling went out of fashion on LU by
the 1980s.

Nevertheless, when the A stock was refurbished, most had only one
cab modernised with the other becoming disused. Some double-ended
units, with both cabs remaining usable, were created in similar
fashion to the D stock which is a mix, mainly of three car units
with one cab at one end but with a few units with driving cars at
both ends.

While some of the double cab A stock units were used on the Chesham
shuttle and East London Line services, most were run as part of
8-car trains on the Met main line. I saw one last time I was at
King's Cross last week. I don't think the double-cab D stock units
have ever been run on their own in passenger service.

Not even when D stock looked after the ELL?

I don't remember that. When and for how long was D stock used there?

From Tuneprunes D stock page:

Some were used as 3-car trains on the East London Line between April 1985
and May 1987.

Thanks. I have a feeling that they didn't provide the entire ELL service
though.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

A Stock Finale
 

On 25/04/2012 10:06, Patrickov wrote:
On 4月25日, 上�8時46分, Steve ] wrote:
In message
,
writes

On Apr 25, 12:39 am, Steve ] wrote:

The Piccadilly still run them today in 3 car sets from Cockfosters to
the T4 loop for turning. They are only the 'double ended units' only
though (8xx numbers) Granted they are out of public service but run
through the centre.

Please explain why a double ended unit needs to be turned especially
on a railway that would turn them with normal traffic anyway.

73 stock are made up of 2 3 car units making the 6 car train. They are
handed; A ends and D ends (A are even numbers and D are odd numbers). A
double ended unit can match with either but has to be coupled A to A or
D to D.

If one of the double enders that has been matched with a D end unit now
needs to be reformed to match with an A end unit it will need to be
turned first, hence the little trip to T4.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

It is impressive to see how LUL saves depot space (?) by taking an
empty little train round a full trip, clearly wasting a lot of
electrical energy if I must say.

Plus, the cost of crew time.