London National Rail - Permits To Travel discontinued but stillrequired by Law !!!
 

There is increasing concern that traincos serving London (and
eslewhere around the country) are refusing to accept cash as payment
for tickets from their automatic ticket machines.

This is causing massive disrupution to potential customers especially
those youngsters who do not have a credit card, or in London those
whose Oyster card has run out and cannot be topped up. This situation
also disadvantages thousands of tourists who expect to be able to
purchase train tickets from machines with cash.

In the greater London area the National Rail stations are in what is
termed a 'Penalty Fare Zone.' Travelling within this zone without a
ticket can incur a huge penalty fine. If tickets cannot be purchased
for travel within this zone - even if the automatic ticket machines
are u/s - then 'Permit to Travel' tickets are supposed to be purchased
from another machine for a nominal amount of cash. These tickets then
make the travel legal. The balance of the fare is then supposed to be
paid at the destination. These are the ONLY tickets available for cash
- well used to be.

However despite PTTs being a legal requirement in the Penalty Fare
Zone(s) the Permits to Travel ticket issuing machines are frequently
switched off, or have been removed altogether.

Notices clearly displayed at most stations state that it is a legal
requirement to purchase these special PTT tickets. Yet many (most /
all?) traincos have closed down or removed the PTT machines.

So what is the legal situation whereas the requirement is to purchase
these PTT tickets, yet the machines that issue them have been removed?

CJB.

London National Rail - Permits To Travel discontinued but stillrequired by Law !!!
 

On May 23, 11:33*pm, CJB wrote:
There is increasing concern that traincos serving London (and
eslewhere around the country) are refusing to accept cash as payment
for tickets from their automatic ticket machines.

This is causing massive disrupution to potential customers especially
those youngsters who do not have a credit card, or in London those
whose Oyster card has run out and cannot be topped up. This situation
also disadvantages thousands of tourists who expect to be able to
purchase train tickets from machines with cash.

In the greater London area the National Rail stations are in what is
termed a 'Penalty Fare Zone.' Travelling within this zone without a
ticket can incur a huge penalty fine. If tickets cannot be purchased
for travel within this zone - even if the automatic ticket machines
are u/s - then 'Permit to Travel' tickets are supposed to be purchased
from another machine for a nominal amount of cash. These tickets then
make the travel legal. The balance of the fare is then supposed to be
paid at the destination. These are the ONLY tickets available for cash
- well used to be.

However despite PTTs being a legal requirement in the Penalty Fare
Zone(s) the Permits to Travel ticket issuing machines are frequently
switched off, or have been removed altogether.

Notices clearly displayed at most stations state that it is a legal
requirement to purchase these special PTT tickets. Yet many (most /
all?) traincos have closed down or removed the PTT machines.

So what is the legal situation whereas the requirement is to purchase
these PTT tickets, yet the machines that issue them have been removed?

CJB.

There is a major problem with PTT machines in that they encouraged
people to pay 5 pence for a journey and then not pay at the
destination even if they had more cash in their possession.

The legal position is surely to buy a ticket if you have the money to
pay for it (as it was with the Permit to Travel machines into which
you were meant to put all the money you had available up to the value
of the fare (and not 5p)).

London National Rail - Permits To Travel discontinued but still required by Law !!!
 

"CJB" wrote in message
...
There is increasing concern that traincos serving London (and
eslewhere around the country) are refusing to accept cash as payment
for tickets from their automatic ticket machines.

This is causing massive disrupution to potential customers especially
those youngsters who do not have a credit card, or in London those
whose Oyster card has run out and cannot be topped up. This situation
also disadvantages thousands of tourists who expect to be able to
purchase train tickets from machines with cash.

In the greater London area the National Rail stations are in what is
termed a 'Penalty Fare Zone.' Travelling within this zone without a
ticket can incur a huge penalty fine. If tickets cannot be purchased
for travel within this zone - even if the automatic ticket machines
are u/s - then 'Permit to Travel' tickets are supposed to be purchased
from another machine for a nominal amount of cash. These tickets then
make the travel legal. The balance of the fare is then supposed to be
paid at the destination. These are the ONLY tickets available for cash
- well used to be.

However despite PTTs being a legal requirement in the Penalty Fare
Zone(s) the Permits to Travel ticket issuing machines are frequently
switched off, or have been removed altogether.

Notices clearly displayed at most stations state that it is a legal
requirement to purchase these special PTT tickets. Yet many (most /
all?) traincos have closed down or removed the PTT machines.

So what is the legal situation whereas the requirement is to purchase
these PTT tickets, yet the machines that issue them have been removed?

Both the National Rail National Conditions of Carriage and the TfL Railway
Byelaws make it clear that the requirement to hold a ticket in a Penalty
Fare Area / Compulsory Ticket Area do not apply if, at the station where the
passenger commenced his journey, there was no ticket office open and no
ticket machine in full working order.

Peter

London National Rail - Permits To Travel discontinued but stillrequired by Law !!!
 

On May 24, 8:48*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"CJB" wrote in message

...

There is increasing concern that traincos serving London (and
eslewhere around the country) are refusing to accept cash as payment
for tickets from their automatic ticket machines.

This is causing massive disrupution to potential customers especially
those youngsters who do not have a credit card, or in London those
whose Oyster card has run out and cannot be topped up. This situation
also disadvantages thousands of tourists who expect to be able to
purchase train tickets from machines with cash.

In the greater London area the National Rail stations are in what is
termed a 'Penalty Fare Zone.' Travelling within this zone without a
ticket can incur a huge penalty fine. If tickets cannot be purchased
for travel within this zone - even if the automatic ticket machines
are u/s - then 'Permit to Travel' tickets are supposed to be purchased
from another machine for a nominal amount of cash. These tickets then
make the travel legal. The balance of the fare is then supposed to be
paid at the destination. These are the ONLY tickets available for cash
- well used to be.

However despite PTTs being a legal requirement in the Penalty Fare
Zone(s) the Permits to Travel ticket issuing machines are frequently
switched off, or have been removed altogether.

Notices clearly displayed at most stations state that it is a legal
requirement to purchase these special PTT tickets. Yet many (most /
all?) traincos have closed down or removed the PTT machines.

So what is the legal situation whereas the requirement is to purchase
these PTT tickets, yet the machines that issue them have been removed?

Both the National Rail National Conditions of Carriage and the TfL Railway
Byelaws make it clear that the requirement to hold a ticket in a Penalty
Fare Area / Compulsory Ticket Area do not apply if, at the station where the
passenger commenced his journey, there was no ticket office open and no
ticket machine in full working order.

Peter

What does 'full working order' mean? If there is a machine which
normally takes cash and cards but at that time is taking cards only
would this be considered to be not in full working order? If another
station had a machine which was only designed to take cards, and was
in full working order, then the situation would effectively be the
same as at the other station, where the machine may, or may not, be
considered to be in full working order.

London National Rail - Permits To Travel discontinued but still required by Law !!!
 

On Wed, 23 May 2012 23:56:06 -0700 (PDT), Jonathan Harris
wrote:

On May 23, 11:33*pm, CJB wrote:
There is increasing concern that traincos serving London (and
eslewhere around the country) are refusing to accept cash as payment
for tickets from their automatic ticket machines.

This is causing massive disrupution to potential customers especially
those youngsters who do not have a credit card, or in London those
whose Oyster card has run out and cannot be topped up. This situation
also disadvantages thousands of tourists who expect to be able to
purchase train tickets from machines with cash.

In the greater London area the National Rail stations are in what is
termed a 'Penalty Fare Zone.' Travelling within this zone without a
ticket can incur a huge penalty fine. If tickets cannot be purchased
for travel within this zone - even if the automatic ticket machines
are u/s - then 'Permit to Travel' tickets are supposed to be purchased
from another machine for a nominal amount of cash. These tickets then
make the travel legal. The balance of the fare is then supposed to be
paid at the destination. These are the ONLY tickets available for cash
- well used to be.

However despite PTTs being a legal requirement in the Penalty Fare
Zone(s) the Permits to Travel ticket issuing machines are frequently
switched off, or have been removed altogether.

Notices clearly displayed at most stations state that it is a legal
requirement to purchase these special PTT tickets. Yet many (most /
all?) traincos have closed down or removed the PTT machines.

So what is the legal situation whereas the requirement is to purchase
these PTT tickets, yet the machines that issue them have been removed?

There is a major problem with PTT machines in that they encouraged
people to pay 5 pence for a journey and then not pay at the
destination even if they had more cash in their possession.

What do you mean by "then not pay at the destination"? do you mean
refuse to pay, or avoid payment by dodging any barriers or ticket
inspectors? If the former, presumably the rail companies have some way
of dealing with non-payers. If the latter, they could dodge payment
whether the PTT machines existed or not.

--
Max Demian

London National Rail - Permits To Travel discontinued but still required by Law !!!
 

CJB wrote in news:16c6322c-bb02-45fb-af28-
:

So what is the legal situation whereas the requirement
is to purchase these PTT tickets, yet the machines that
issue them have been removed?

Having offered legal tender for a ticket, they would not be sufficiently
stupid to take the matter to court.

--

Praise be to Jahbulon, holy god of Royal Arch Freemasons

London National Rail - Permits To Travel discontinued but stillrequired by Law !!!
 

On May 23, 11:33*pm, CJB wrote:
There is increasing concern that traincos serving London (and
eslewhere around the country) are refusing to accept cash as payment
for tickets from their automatic ticket machines.

Good. Perhaps the local ne'erdowells might then have less reason to
try to open them and thus destroy them for all sales.


This is causing massive disrupution to potential customers especially
those youngsters who do not have a credit card

Bank accounts with debit cards are available to everyone aged 11 and
over. Pre-pay debit cards have no lower age limit, and parents can
buy them for their children with no formalities.

or in London those
whose Oyster card has run out and cannot be topped up.

In order to be using a child Oyster card, children must have a Zip
card, which of itself grants them free travel on buses. They might
have to get a bus home. Moreover, Oyster cards don't just "run out",
and someone dim enough to travel without enough credit on their card
to get home is also dim enough to not carry sufficient money to top it
up, even were a machine to do so available. The vast majority of
people who travel daily have some form of season ticket, and those
that are travelling off-peak would have to manoeuvre their card
balance quite carefully to run out of credit before they hit the daily
cap.

This is concern trolling for "people who do not have debit cards for
reasons other than bloody-mindedness" who, for practical purposes, do
not exist.

This situation
also disadvantages thousands of tourists who expect to be able to
purchase train tickets from machines with cash.

Tourists without any form of payment other than cash? They don't
exist. They certainly don't exist in "thousands". It's essentially
impossible to book or check into a hotel without a credit card, it is
very difficult to get an AP train ticket without a credit card and
"people who drive cars but don't have a debit or credit card" again
don't exist.

There is a tiny number of obsessives who refuse to have debit cards
because they're obsessives. I don't care if they can't buy train
tickets, and nor does anyone else.

ian

London National Rail - Permits To Travel discontinued but stillrequired by Law !!!
 

On May 24, 10:50*am, Jahbulon wrote:
CJB wrote in news:16c6322c-bb02-45fb-af28-
:

So what is the legal situation whereas the requirement
is to purchase these PTT tickets, yet the machines that
issue them have been removed?

Having offered legal tender for a ticket, they would not be sufficiently
stupid to take the matter to court.

As I explain above, legal tender is irrelevant to this debate, as a
debt doesn't exist at the point of payment. There are other reasons
why this might not get to court, but that isn't one of them.

ian

London National Rail - Permits To Travel discontinued but still required by Law !!!
 

"CJB" wrote in message
...

However despite PTTs being a legal requirement in the Penalty Fare
Zone(s) the Permits to Travel ticket issuing machines are frequently
switched off, or have been removed altogether.

But PTTs are obviously not a legal requirement any more, or TOCs would not
have removed them...

This was discussed a few years ago when SWT removed them all over their
network when rolling out their new TVMs, [1]] and it was not possible to
find a requirement for them to be provided, even in the PF regulations.

[1] There are a handful of PTT machines present at SWT stations where there
is no TVM at all.

Paul

London National Rail - Permits To Travel discontinued but stillrequired by Law !!!
 

On May 24, 10:59*am, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"CJB" wrote in message

...

However despite PTTs being a legal requirement in the Penalty Fare
Zone(s) the Permits to Travel ticket issuing machines are frequently
switched off, or have been removed altogether.

But PTTs are obviously not a legal requirement any more, or TOCs would not
have removed them...


There are few, or no, PTT machines at the stations in Birmingham's
penalty fare area (certainly they've been removed at the stations I
use). It's quite common for the ticket machines to be set to card
only, too.

ian