Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

As per...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/19976.aspx

---quote---
Contactless debit and credit cards are making life easier. You can
already use them to pay for things wherever you see the contactless
symbol - and towards the end of 2012, you'll be able to use them on
buses as well.
---/quote---

With contactless card payments supposedly coming to other TfL modes in 2013.

It is however four and a bit weeks until "the end of 2012", and I ain't
heard anything about this. Absolutely no point in rushing it and bodging
it of course, but just wondering if anyone else is any the wiser as to
progress on this?

(I wonder if bus capping would work from day one - perhaps not, if the
beginning of Oyster Pre-Pay aka PAYG is taken as an indication.)

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

In message , at 01:00:54 on Thu, 29 Nov
2012, Mizter T remarked:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/19976.aspx

---quote---
Contactless debit and credit cards are making life easier. You can
already use them to pay for things wherever you see the contactless
symbol

Only if the equipment's working. The last time I tried to use a
contactless card (just to see if it worked) the cashier apologised that
their contactless terminal wasn't working.

- and towards the end of 2012, you'll be able to use them on buses as
well.
---/quote---

With contactless card payments supposedly coming to other TfL modes in 2013.

It is however four and a bit weeks until "the end of 2012", and I ain't
heard anything about this. Absolutely no point in rushing it and
bodging it of course, but just wondering if anyone else is any the
wiser as to progress on this?

(I wonder if bus capping would work from day one - perhaps not, if the
beginning of Oyster Pre-Pay aka PAYG is taken as an indication.)

I noticed that I now have a second contactless card (not a Barclaycard)
as a result of routine re-issue.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

In message , at 13:12:31 on
Thu, 29 Nov 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:
I have read that card reading speed
specs have had to be relaxed by TfL and also that the security
requirements imposed by the Banks were changed part way through the
development process.

Normally the banks want a random selection of "waves" to be backed up by
a PIN, which is presumably difficult on a bus.

I am also pretty sure that I read somewhere that the initial launch of
the bus product will NOT include capping.

To be fair, until you can cap both tube and bus onto one card, the
market for a bus-only cap is rather small.

I suspect that will depress take up.

Sounds like short term it's another "tourist tax" for people who haven't
got an Oyster.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

We were about to embark at Dover, when (Paul
Corfield) came up to me and whispered:

I assume that whatever is deemed
reasonable for retailers would broadly be OK for bus travel
given a PAYG fare is only £1.35. You'd have to be going some to be
able to rip off anything like a large sum of money ;-)

Additionally, any PayWave card will not be accepted without pin following
a set value being reached in PayWave transactions.

I reached that limit earlier - having spent £19, I then went to
Macdonalds, and my £4 transaction required chip and pin.

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981

---- If it's below this line, I didn't write it ----

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 13:48:50 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

Sounds like short term it's another "tourist tax" for people who haven't
got an Oyster.

Unlike most, a tax nobody *has* to pay.

Richard.

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

On 29/11/2012 13:48, Roland Perry wrote:

I am also pretty sure that I read somewhere that the initial launch of
the bus product will NOT include capping.

To be fair, until you can cap both tube and bus onto one card, the
market for a bus-only cap is rather small.

Nonsense. You're speaking from the position of a frequent out-of-town
Tube user. Others are different.

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

I know next to nothing about how Pay Wave / EMV card security works.

I think in a not dissimilar way to signatures but without the signature,
IYSWIM. Randomly it seems to decline and request the PIN, which I guess
would prevent someone nicking one and running up a big bill.

However EMV is used for low value transactions by a growing number of
retailers without PIN validation. I assume that whatever is deemed
reasonable for retailers would broadly be OK for bus travel given a
PAYG fare is only £1.35. You'd have to be going some to be able to
rip off anything like a large sum of money ;-)

Stagecoach Lancashire appear to be already taking them, at least on the
Lakes 555. The limit I think is 15 quid per transaction, and there may
well be an unpublished daily cap.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

Mizter T wrote:

Nonsense. You're speaking from the position of a frequent out-of-town
Tube user. Others are different.

The practical issue with it I can see is that you'll need to remove your
card from your wallet as there will tend to be more than one, whereas I at
present just bang my unopened wallet on the reader on the correct
assumption that there is only one card in there (the Oyster) it cares
about.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 09:14:37 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 01:00:54 on Thu, 29 Nov
2012, Mizter T remarked:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/19976.aspx

---quote---
Contactless debit and credit cards are making life easier. You can
already use them to pay for things wherever you see the contactless
symbol

Only if the equipment's working. The last time I tried to use a
contactless card (just to see if it worked) the cashier apologised that
their contactless terminal wasn't working.

My experience particularly in Caffe Nero is that there can be a
reluctance to use the equipment. I have been given the explanation
'It might not work' and responded 'It usually works fine so can we
just try it and see' and it always works.

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 01:00:54 +0000, Mizter T wrote:

---quote---
Contactless debit and credit cards are making life easier. You can
already use them to pay for things wherever you see the contactless
symbol - and towards the end of 2012, you'll be able to use them on
buses as well.
---/quote---

With contactless card payments supposedly coming to other TfL modes in
2013.

This could be why my attempt to get on a bus this morning caused a bad
BEEP from the machine and the message "more than one card trying to be
used at the same time" - I have in my Oystercard wallet, 1 Oystercard,
and 1 contactless debit card. Am I going to have to use different wallets
now to avoid this? I've only just 'rationalised' my wallet far enough to
have just a debit card, and Oystercard and work entry card with Oystercard
wallet. I'll be pained to change this all again!

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

In message , at 20:02:52 on
Thu, 29 Nov 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:

I have read that card reading speed
specs have had to be relaxed by TfL and also that the security
requirements imposed by the Banks were changed part way through the
development process.

Normally the banks want a random selection of "waves" to be backed up by
a PIN, which is presumably difficult on a bus.

I know next to nothing about how Pay Wave / EMV card security works.

This is what one of my card issuers says: "MBNA has added layers of
security to their cards. For example, contactless cards cannot be used
until a PIN is entered on first use; payments are limited to up to £15
per transaction; and customers will occasionally be asked to enter their
PIN number to ensure the transactions are valid."

The first one is clearly to stop cards "lost in the post" being used as
Paywave, £15 is quite low (some foreign cards are up to $100), and it's
the latter which is difficult on buses. When Paywave was first
introduced the "occasionally" was claimed to be about 1:10.

However EMV is used for low value transactions by a growing number of
retailers without PIN validation. I assume that whatever is deemed
reasonable for retailers would broadly be OK for bus travel given a
PAYG fare is only £1.35. You'd have to be going some to be able to
rip off anything like a large sum of money ;-)

If the "relaxation" referred to earlier is never having to type in a
PIN, there's a danger that a lost/stolen card becomes a "free season
ticket" for the lucky recipient. Unless the terminals have a blacklist
of such cards, and maybe implementing that is what's causing the delay?

I am also pretty sure that I read somewhere that the initial launch of
the bus product will NOT include capping.

To be fair, until you can cap both tube and bus onto one card, the
market for a bus-only cap is rather small.

Yes only 6m passenger journeys per day on London's buses and only 99%
of those trips use contactless cards. Clearly PAYG is a subset of
that total but there is still considerable volume that might well find
bus only validation a viable option.

The audience is people who have so far not got an Oyster (so that rules
out most London-based frequent travellers) and for whom getting an
Oyster is a barrier (so that includes tourists, and yes I know you can
get one fairly easily but there's the issue of getting back your deposit
and unused credit while running for a plane at Heathrow), or who only
wants to do one or two trips that day, or who doesn't mid being charged
above the normal daily cap.

A TfL rail and bus cap will be more attractive but that is clearly a
later phase. I am unsure when National Rail will be added even though
TfL kit exists at all the relevant stations.

I suspect that will depress take up.

Sounds like short term it's another "tourist tax" for people who haven't
got an Oyster.

No it does not. It sounds like the first phase of the project.
Oyster's introduction was phased and progressive and the move to EMV
is a completely different way of handling transactions for travel on
TfL services.

Although without a cap the system isn't doing very much, it's simply
collecting individual ad-hoc payments just like coffee shops have been
doing for years.

It is not remotely surprising that TfL are being cautious in their
approach to introducing this technology. It will only take a few
nasty "errors" that receive disproportionate media attention for the
concept to be potentially damaged. I don't imagine anyone with any
sense would countenance a rash "big bang" approach to introducing
complex, unfamiliar technology.

The technology of the terminals should be familiar enough, but I agree
that the retrospective capping (which they aren't doing yet, obviously)
will be fun.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

In message , at 09:54:56 on Fri, 30 Nov
2012, martin_petrov remarked:
This could be why my attempt to get on a bus this morning caused a bad
BEEP from the machine and the message "more than one card trying to be
used at the same time" - I have in my Oystercard wallet, 1 Oystercard,
and 1 contactless debit card. Am I going to have to use different wallets
now to avoid this? I've only just 'rationalised' my wallet far enough to
have just a debit card, and Oystercard and work entry card with Oystercard
wallet. I'll be pained to change this all again!

I wonder what happens if you try to touch-in with a Barclays "Onepulse"
Oyster card, which now has Paywave added. Something to try next time I'm
in London!
--
Roland Perry

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

On 30/11/2012 10:16, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 09:54:56 on Fri, 30 Nov
2012, martin_petrov remarked:
This could be why my attempt to get on a bus this morning caused a bad
BEEP from the machine and the message "more than one card trying to be
used at the same time" - I have in my Oystercard wallet, 1 Oystercard,
and 1 contactless debit card. Am I going to have to use different wallets
now to avoid this? I've only just 'rationalised' my wallet far enough to
have just a debit card, and Oystercard and work entry card with
Oystercard
wallet. I'll be pained to change this all again!

I wonder what happens if you try to touch-in with a Barclays "Onepulse"
Oyster card, which now has Paywave added. Something to try next time I'm
in London!

Barclaycard OnePulse cards always had payWave functionality, it's not a
recent addition - that was part of the original selling point.

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

In message , at 12:28:41 on Fri, 30 Nov
2012, Mizter T remarked:

I wonder what happens if you try to touch-in with a Barclays "Onepulse"
Oyster card, which now has Paywave added. Something to try next time I'm
in London!

Barclaycard OnePulse cards always had payWave functionality, it's not a
recent addition - that was part of the original selling point.

Fair enough, but what will happen (soon) on a London Bus: which of the
two elements will "win"; or will it refuse to pick either, claiming you
are trying to use more than one card at once?
--
Roland Perry

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 12:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 12:28:41 on Fri, 30 Nov
2012, Mizter T remarked:

Barclaycard OnePulse cards always had payWave functionality, it's not a
recent addition - that was part of the original selling point.

Fair enough, but what will happen (soon) on a London Bus: which of the
two elements will "win"; or will it refuse to pick either, claiming you
are trying to use more than one card at once?

Unless the two elements are connected and can decide between
themselves, which is almost impossible to believe, then it's like
having an Oyster and a PayWave in the same wallet, which already
causes trouble. My wallet, with Oyster, ITSO and a Spanish one (not
sure what standard that one is) is guaranteed to fail!

Richard.

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 01:57:12 +0000, Steve Fitzgerald
] wrote:

My understanding is (from being involved with a group that accepts cards
and gets all the card acceptor bumph) that this Pay Wave will only work
for a number (ISTR about 5 or 6) of P-W transactions before it then
requires a PIN input. [...]

Now, how this works with the bus scenario is an interesting exercise for
the reader but could explain some of the 'issues' that have been alluded
to.

It would be impractical to ask for the PIN on a bus, at least in
London... I wonder whether there is a way for the retailer to accept
higher risk in return for never (or much more rarely) requiring a PIN,
especially as no real goods are involved?

Richard.

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

On Nov 30, 12:44*pm, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:28:41 on Fri, 30 Nov
2012, Mizter T remarked:

I wonder what happens if you try to touch-in with a Barclays "Onepulse"
Oyster card, which now has Paywave added. Something to try next time I'm
in London!

Barclaycard OnePulse cards always had payWave functionality, it's not a
recent addition - that was part of the original selling point.

Fair enough, but what will happen (soon) on a London Bus: which of the
two elements will "win"; or will it refuse to pick either, claiming you
are trying to use more than one card at once?
--
Roland Perry

I guess all the OnePulse cards will have to be replaced with non-
Oyster visa cards and all current cardholders instructed not to use
their current OnePulses on buses?

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

On 30/11/2012 12:44, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 12:28:41 on Fri, 30 Nov
2012, Mizter T remarked:

I wonder what happens if you try to touch-in with a Barclays "Onepulse"
Oyster card, which now has Paywave added. Something to try next time I'm
in London!

Barclaycard OnePulse cards always had payWave functionality, it's not
a recent addition - that was part of the original selling point.

Fair enough, but what will happen (soon) on a London Bus: which of the
two elements will "win"; or will it refuse to pick either, claiming you
are trying to use more than one card at once?

I'd imagine the Oyster element would 'win', but lets wait and see.

By the by, the OnePulse card had been taken off the market by
Barclaycard (for new applicants) when this whole issue was last
discussed - I see it's now offered again (I don't know how long it was
off the market for):
http://www.barclaycard.co.uk/onepulse

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

On 01/12/2012 10:48, Richard wrote:

On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 12:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 12:28:41 on Fri, 30 Nov
2012, Mizter T remarked:

Barclaycard OnePulse cards always had payWave functionality, it's not a
recent addition - that was part of the original selling point.

Fair enough, but what will happen (soon) on a London Bus: which of the
two elements will "win"; or will it refuse to pick either, claiming you
are trying to use more than one card at once?

Unless the two elements are connected and can decide between
themselves, which is almost impossible to believe,

The OnePulse card was specifically designed so that the payWave and
Oyster elements of the card didn't conflict, so my understanding is that
they are in at least one sense 'connected'. (Curious why you think such
a thing is almost impossible to believe?)

then it's like
having an Oyster and a PayWave in the same wallet, which already
causes trouble. My wallet, with Oyster, ITSO and a Spanish one (not
sure what standard that one is) is guaranteed to fail!

Well, what we can be sure of is that no-one at TfL could possibly have
considered this scenario...

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

Richard wrote:

Unless the two elements are connected and can decide between
themselves, which is almost impossible to believe, then it's like
having an Oyster and a PayWave in the same wallet, which already
causes trouble. My wallet, with Oyster, ITSO and a Spanish one (not
sure what standard that one is) is guaranteed to fail!

Yet mine, with an Oyster and two Paywaves, works fine.

Is it feasible to make it choose an Oyster over other cards also present?
It will be a definite hassle compared with what went before not just to be
able to whack your wallet on the barrier.

A market for tin foil wallets outside that of the paranoid?

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

Richard wrote:

It would be impractical to ask for the PIN on a bus, at least in
London... I wonder whether there is a way for the retailer to accept
higher risk in return for never (or much more rarely) requiring a PIN,
especially as no real goods are involved?

That might make sense for things like buses, because the alternative,
having to find cash if it declines, negates the entire concept.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

In message , at 11:42:39 on Sat, 1 Dec 2012,
Mizter T remarked:
The OnePulse card was specifically designed so that the payWave and
Oyster elements of the card didn't conflict,

It might just mean that there's no interference when used with an
only-Oyster or only-Paywave reader. Richard says that there's "trouble"
if you have Oyster and Paywave adjacent on different cards.

so my understanding is that they are in at least one sense 'connected'.
(Curious why you think such a thing is almost impossible to believe?)

Sounds like it could break every crypto rule in the book, for both
halves, if it was a data connection.

But I suppose it's possible that the first one to feel itself being
energised could switch the other one off.

then it's like
having an Oyster and a PayWave in the same wallet, which already
causes trouble. My wallet, with Oyster, ITSO and a Spanish one (not
sure what standard that one is) is guaranteed to fail!

Well, what we can be sure of is that no-one at TfL could possibly have
considered this scenario...

I'm sure they've thought of it, but the answer might be "sorry you can't
use them". iirc it was touch[1] and go that the Onepulse project carried
on (ie that any of the cards were replaced when they expired).

[1] Sorry.

--
Roland Perry

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

In message

..net, at 12:27:25 on Sat, 1 Dec 2012, Neil Williams
remarked:

A market for tin foil wallets outside that of the paranoid?

An excellent idea. Keep it under your hat (tin-foil, obviously).
--
Roland Perry

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

In message
, at
02:52:21 on Sat, 1 Dec 2012, Jack remarked:
I guess all the OnePulse cards will have to be replaced with non-
Oyster visa cards and all current cardholders instructed not to use
their current OnePulses on buses?

Actually I'd prefer it to be non-Paywave, if there has to be such a
decision.

ie an Oyster I can also use as a credit card elsewhere (eg buying and
collecting ToD).

There ought to be more dual-purpose cards, like a Tesco Credit card and
combined Clubcard, or a Sainsburys Credit Card and combined Nectar Card.
But I suspect the shops make too much money from people who forget to
take their loyalty card with them (and don't go back later to add the
points).
--
Roland Perry

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message
, at
02:52:21 on Sat, 1 Dec 2012, Jack remarked:
I guess all the OnePulse cards will have to be replaced with non-
Oyster visa cards and all current cardholders instructed not to use
their current OnePulses on buses?

Actually I'd prefer it to be non-Paywave, if there has to be such a
decision.

ie an Oyster I can also use as a credit card elsewhere (eg buying and
collecting ToD).

There ought to be more dual-purpose cards, like a Tesco Credit card and
combined Clubcard, or a Sainsburys Credit Card and combined Nectar Card.
But I suspect the shops make too much money from people who forget to take
their loyalty card with them (and don't go back later to add the points).

I would have thought that people forgetting to take their card is somewhat
lost in all the noise of the other possible "mistakes" (both positive and
negative) that affect a supermarket's bottom line.

tim

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

In message , at 13:45:29 on Sat, 1 Dec
2012, tim..... remarked:
There ought to be more dual-purpose cards, like a Tesco Credit card
and combined Clubcard, or a Sainsburys Credit Card and combined
Nectar Card. But I suspect the shops make too much money from people
who forget to take their loyalty card with them (and don't go back
later to add the points).

I would have thought that people forgetting to take their card is
somewhat lost in all the noise of the other possible "mistakes" (both
positive and negative) that affect a supermarket's bottom line.

Every little helps.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

Mizter T wrote:

Fair enough, but what will happen (soon) on a London Bus: which of the
two elements will "win"; or will it refuse to pick either, claiming you
are trying to use more than one card at once?

I'd imagine the Oyster element would 'win', but lets wait and see.

What happens if the Oyster is out of credit? Does it automatically debit
the PayWave half instead? What happens if your Oyster has insufficient
credit for an all-zones tube journey? Does it decide which element to
charge it to when you touch out? What happens if you make another journey
and hit your daily cap? Does it charge the two journeys to Oyster and a
fractional journey to reach the cap to PayWave? Sounds like coding all the
corner cases could be tricky...

Theo

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

In message , at 21:23:14 on Sat,
1 Dec 2012, Theo Markettos remarked:
Fair enough, but what will happen (soon) on a London Bus: which of the
two elements will "win"; or will it refuse to pick either, claiming you
are trying to use more than one card at once?

I'd imagine the Oyster element would 'win', but lets wait and see.

What happens if the Oyster is out of credit?

Most of the Onepulse Oyster cards will have auto-topup enabled I would
have thought. They were obtained by early adopters (of the dual
functionality) and it's unclear why such credit-card loving folks would
depend on manual topup.

Does it automatically debit
the PayWave half instead? What happens if your Oyster has insufficient
credit for an all-zones tube journey? Does it decide which element to
charge it to when you touch out? What happens if you make another journey
and hit your daily cap? Does it charge the two journeys to Oyster and a
fractional journey to reach the cap to PayWave? Sounds like coding all the
corner cases could be tricky...

It's far too ambitious to expect the card to switch on the fly between
modes as the result of the sort of criteria you mention. It's going to
be designed to pick one of the two modes and stick with that.

Although if it is on manual topup and the Oyster element is empty, it
would be useful for it to always pick Paywave (irrespective of what it
might have picked had there been plenty of credit).

But if the answer is "the card won't work", then no doubt it will be
fixed by publicising the circumstances where it doesn't work, rather
than providing a complex technological fix.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

On Sat, 1 Dec 2012 12:52:21 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:42:39 on Sat, 1 Dec 2012,
Mizter T remarked:
The OnePulse card was specifically designed so that the payWave and
Oyster elements of the card didn't conflict,

It might just mean that there's no interference when used with an
only-Oyster or only-Paywave reader. Richard says that there's "trouble"
if you have Oyster and Paywave adjacent on different cards.

Yes, I've seen that at the new gateline at Waterloo, and at St P.,
only two observations though, need more really.

[Mizter T]
so my understanding is that they are in at least one sense 'connected'.
(Curious why you think such a thing is almost impossible to believe?)

[Roland Perry]
Sounds like it could break every crypto rule in the book, for both
halves, if it was a data connection.

That's what I had in mind but Roland put it more succinctly - I meant
that it's hard to imagine Barclays being able to modify the Oyster
part of the card and especially the PayWave part.

But I suppose it's possible that the first one to feel itself being
energised could switch the other one off.

In the case of OnePulse, you'd want the Oyster part to have priority
somehow, but only in London. All (separate) cards seem to respond to
a reader -- by the time a card knows it can't be used (like my Málaga
one) it seems to be too late to prevent interference with the others.
I just can't see how all that is really possible.

[Me]
then it's like
having an Oyster and a PayWave in the same wallet, which already
causes trouble. My wallet, with Oyster, ITSO and a Spanish one (not
sure what standard that one is) is guaranteed to fail!

[Mizter T]
Well, what we can be sure of is that no-one at TfL could possibly have
considered this scenario...

[Roland Perry]
I'm sure they've thought of it, but the answer might be "sorry you can't
use them". iirc it was touch and go that the Onepulse project carried
on (ie that any of the cards were replaced when they expired).

It's a reasonable enough answer, but if the majority of the cards in a
wallet/purse are now going to wake up and say hello it might not be a
good enough answer in future. PayWave and ITSO will be the new
neighbours more and more.

Richard.

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

In message , at 10:51:27 on
Sun, 2 Dec 2012, Richard remarked:
then it's like
having an Oyster and a PayWave in the same wallet, which already
causes trouble. My wallet, with Oyster, ITSO and a Spanish one (not
sure what standard that one is) is guaranteed to fail!

[Mizter T]
Well, what we can be sure of is that no-one at TfL could possibly have
considered this scenario...

[Roland Perry]
I'm sure they've thought of it,

By "this scenario" I meant possible issues with OnePulse, not more
general issues of multiple cards in a wallet.

but the answer might be "sorry you can't
use them". iirc it was touch and go that the Onepulse project carried
on (ie that any of the cards were replaced when they expired).

It's a reasonable enough answer, but if the majority of the cards in a
wallet/purse are now going to wake up and say hello it might not be a
good enough answer in future. PayWave and ITSO will be the new
neighbours more and more.

For a while the only two proximity cards in my wallet were Oyster and an
access card for one of my clients' front doors. The Oyster would
complain, but the front door didn't.

Nowadays, I have a much wider range of such cards, including at least
three Paywave enabled credit cards, a "Real" Oyster, as well as the
OnePulse, five ITSO cards, and a Nottingham City Transport bus card
(which is neither ITSO nor Oyster).

I'm unlikely to leave the house with all of them at once though!

Of course, people want to put this sort of functionality into mobile
phones too, but the problem there would seem to be: will it be Paywave,
ITSO, or some third incompatible technology; and how can they
realistically make a proximity phone useful if it only hosts just one
application (currently not even ITSO cards from the same issuer - eg
Stagecoach - are interoperable).
--
Roland Perry

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

In message , at 16:27:08 on
Sun, 2 Dec 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:
Every little helps.

Yes it certainly does when they insist they've scanned your goods
correctly when in fact they've overcharged you by £3 as Tescos
Tottenham did this afternoon. Bloody useless. I got it refunded but
only after having to queue all over again.

Indeed, they've messed up two "Any two for £3" type offers in the last
couple of months - failing to register it at the till once each for
myself and my wife. When they were sorting mine out they visited the
freezer shelf *three* times while trying to sort it out. It took ages
(as well as having to queue at customer disservice).

No wonder they're not doing as well as they once did if my experience
is in any indicative of their general performance.

They used to let you have the item free if it as mischarged, but not any
more.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

In message , at 16:53:56 on
Sun, 2 Dec 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:

I assume One Touch users pay a deposit as for any normal PAYG user.

If you mean the Barclays OnePulse, then no, I don't recall paying a
deposit. Nor for the replacement, which is a differently-numbered Oyster
Card, so you have to go through a significant palaver to transfer the
balance across.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

In message , at 13:12:59 on
Mon, 3 Dec 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:
I assume One Touch users pay a deposit as for any normal PAYG user.

If you mean the Barclays OnePulse, then no, I don't recall paying a
deposit. Nor for the replacement, which is a differently-numbered Oyster
Card, so you have to go through a significant palaver to transfer the
balance across.

Interesting. Someone must "fund" the deposit element to allow cards to
go into a negative PAYG balance. The PAYG system is designed to work
in that way to avoid people being "trapped" within the system given
not every station has the facility (assistance window), open at all
times, to restore your balance within the paid area. You are
therefore allowed out in order to top up at a machine.

As it's also a conventional credit card I expect Barclays will stump up
if they ever actually have to. Maybe it's buried in the T&C somewhere
that they'll bill you if the card expires at the end of the three years
with a negative balance on it. And as I observed the other day, it's
quite likely these cards will have auto-top enabled anyway.
--
Roland Perry

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

On 29/11/2012 01:00, Mizter T wrote:
As per...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/19976.aspx

---quote---
Contactless debit and credit cards are making life easier. You can
already use them to pay for things wherever you see the contactless
symbol - and towards the end of 2012, you'll be able to use them on
buses as well.
---/quote---

With contactless card payments supposedly coming to other TfL modes in
2013.

It is however four and a bit weeks until "the end of 2012", and I ain't
heard anything about this. Absolutely no point in rushing it and bodging
it of course, but just wondering if anyone else is any the wiser as to
progress on this?

(I wonder if bus capping would work from day one - perhaps not, if the
beginning of Oyster Pre-Pay aka PAYG is taken as an indication.)


I've posted a new thread on this (perhaps I shouldn't have), but will
just add on here that contactless payments are set to be accepted on
London buses from tomorrow (12/12/12), reports the BBC:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027

Contactless ('wave-and-pay') payment progress?
 

On 12/12/2012 21:47, Mizter T wrote:
[...]
I've posted a new thread on this (perhaps I shouldn't have), but will
just add on here that contactless payments are set to be accepted on
London buses from tomorrow (12/12/12), reports the BBC:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20694027

Tomorrow being 13/12/12 of course!