Size of KX new forecourt
 

On 25 Dec, 20:31, Roland Perry wrote:
Slow news day, so another story about the KX forecourt restoration.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20771255

But they say it's 7,000 sqm, whereas my back of the envelope calculation
says it's a triangle equivalent to 100x80 (4,000 sqm) less the area of
the stairs in the bottom left down to the TfL booking hall.

So perhaps 3,500 sqm.

Did they tell the PR agency it's 100m x 70m, and forget to mention it
was triangular? Or what else could explain the huge disparity.

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/kx-square.jpg

Roland,

I do not have an answer to your question. However, this is a good
opportunity to jump in and say how well the new arrangements at Kings
Cross Network Rail station work. Passing thru the station, on the way
to Leeds, in early December, I was impressed with the improvement in
passenger flow. I ate on the upper level. When my platform was
shown, it was a quick walk over the new footbridge, and down an
escalator to reach my train. And, oh what joy to see the carbuncle in
front of the station coming down.

OTOH The new TfL arrangement is less than impressive. The route from
the Victoria line to the new ticket hall/exit is very long with no
travelators, or warning. Someone with limited mobility could easily
find himself in discomfort, or worse, difficulty.

Size of KX new forecourt
 

In message
, at
08:25:34 on Wed, 26 Dec 2012, e27002
remarked:

I do not have an answer to your question. However, this is a good
opportunity to jump in and say how well the new arrangements at Kings
Cross Network Rail station work. Passing thru the station, on the way
to Leeds, in early December, I was impressed with the improvement in
passenger flow. I ate on the upper level. When my platform was
shown, it was a quick walk over the new footbridge, and down an
escalator to reach my train.

When I did that, the experience was marred by the displays at the
escalators being out of action, so a memory-test about which platform to
descend to.

And, oh what joy to see the carbuncle in front of the station coming
down.

Although some have fond memories of it (seriously).

OTOH The new TfL arrangement is less than impressive. The route from
the Victoria line to the new ticket hall/exit is very long with no
travelators, or warning. Someone with limited mobility could easily
find himself in discomfort, or worse, difficulty.

I agree, the new route especially to the Victoria Line was "advertised"
as being better than before, but is far worse than the old (although
existing if unsigned) route.

Having walked from Platform 1 to the Victoria Line (which is almost
directly below) via that enormously circuitous route, they have
definitely missed a trick in not having a short-cut from the end of
Platform 0/1/2 to the Victoria (and Picc) lines.
--
Roland Perry

Size of KX new forecourt
 

On 26/12/2012 22:58, Roland Perry wrote:

Having walked from Platform 1 to the Victoria Line (which is almost
directly below) via that enormously circuitous route, they have
definitely missed a trick in not having a short-cut from the end of
Platform 0/1/2 to the Victoria (and Picc) lines.

You keep missing the point. The design of the KX-St.Pancras complex
isn't anything to do with the railway stations, it's a shopping centre
which just happens to have a few railway stations scattered about the
periphery :-). If they put in all the obvious short-cuts (I'd really
like one connecting St.Pancras low-level to the tube system without
going up two floors then all the way down again) we wouldn't have the
lure of all those retail outlets presented to us, and then we might not
spend so much on their fast food and tat.

--
Clive Page

Size of KX new forecourt
 

On 27 Dec, 12:30, Clive Page wrote:
On 26/12/2012 22:58, Roland Perry wrote:

Having walked from Platform 1 to the Victoria Line (which is almost
directly below) via that enormously circuitous route, they have
definitely missed a trick in not having a short-cut from the end of
Platform 0/1/2 to the Victoria (and Picc) lines.

You keep missing the point. *The design of the KX-St.Pancras complex
isn't anything to do with the railway stations, it's a shopping centre
which just happens to have a few railway stations scattered about the
periphery :-). *If they put in all the obvious short-cuts (I'd really
like one connecting St.Pancras low-level to the tube system without
going up two floors then all the way down again) we wouldn't have the
lure of all those retail outlets presented to us, and then we might not
spend so much on their fast food and tat.

Very droll, although I concede there is a grain of truth in what you
say. The lack of a direct link from the Thameslink platforms to the
tubes, et al, is very poor.

OTOH I suspect that the long route from the Victoria and Piccadilly
lines to the northern ticket hall is a safety issue. The Euston Road
exits could easily become overwhelmed. This would be acceptable given
a travelator. As it is there are folks for whom the distance could be
very unfortunate.

Size of KX new forecourt
 

Clive Page wrote:
On 26/12/2012 22:58, Roland Perry wrote:

Having walked from Platform 1 to the Victoria Line (which is almost
directly below) via that enormously circuitous route, they have
definitely missed a trick in not having a short-cut from the end of
Platform 0/1/2 to the Victoria (and Picc) lines.

You keep missing the point. The design of the KX-St.Pancras complex
isn't anything to do with the railway stations, it's a shopping centre
which just happens to have a few railway stations scattered about the
periphery :-). If they put in all the obvious short-cuts (I'd really
like one connecting St.Pancras low-level to the tube system without going
up two floors then all the way down again) we wouldn't have the lure of
all those retail outlets presented to us, and then we might not spend so
much on their fast food and tat.

But there aren't any "retail opportunities" in the underground labyrinth
connecting the tube tunnels to the barriers.

Size of KX new forecourt
 

In message
, at
04:40:04 on Thu, 27 Dec 2012, 77002 remarked:
I suspect that the long route from the Victoria and Piccadilly
lines to the northern ticket hall is a safety issue.

Given that the Northern Ticket Hall is where it is, there's not really a
shorter route to the Piccadilly Line under platform 0. The Victoria Line
is beyond, and because it's re-using the foot tunnel from the old
KX-Thameslink entrance the access to the platforms is excessively to the
east. http://www.perry.co.uk/images/kx-composite.jpg

(Picture dates from about four years ago, before any of the new works
were open, but it turns out is quite close to reality).

The "missing link" is from the south of the new Thameslink platforms[1]
to the Northern Line, but the Fleet River duct is the usual excuse.

[1] not pictured, but underneath the legend on the western edge of StP.
--
Roland Perry

Size of KX new forecourt
 

"77002" wrote in message
...

I suspect that the long route from the Victoria and Piccadilly
lines to the northern ticket hall is a safety issue. The Euston Road
exits could easily become overwhelmed. This would be acceptable given
a travelator. As it is there are folks for whom the distance could be
very unfortunate.

So, having spent goodness knows how many millions on the replan, it is not
"fit for purpose".

(and that's not a question).

My mother (88) would not have been able to walk the ridiculous routes as
signposted.

Fortunately, I equipped her with a copy of Roland Perry's diagram of how NOT
to have a coronary between platforms.
--
Brian
"Fight like the Devil, die like a gentleman."

Size of KX new forecourt
 

On 27/12/2012 15:05, Recliner wrote:
But there aren't any "retail opportunities" in the underground labyrinth
connecting the tube tunnels to the barriers.

But there's a vast number connecting the Thameslink platforms and for
that matter the Midland Main Line platforms with the tube system,
whether you choose to go the length of the old St.Pancras station or
across in the King's Cross direction and then down.

--
Clive Page

Size of KX new forecourt
 

Clive Page wrote:
On 27/12/2012 15:05, Recliner wrote:
But there aren't any "retail opportunities" in the underground labyrinth
connecting the tube tunnels to the barriers.

But there's a vast number connecting the Thameslink platforms and for
that matter the Midland Main Line platforms with the tube system, whether
you choose to go the length of the old St.Pancras station or across in
the King's Cross direction and then down.

True, but the original complaint had been about the longer routes from the
Picc and Vic platforms to the exits, and those have no shops. As for the
new TL platforms, they actually are quite a long way from the tube
platforms, shops or no shops. And 50% of the human race (ie, women) do
actually like shops and shopping...

Size of KX new forecourt
 

In message , at 22:59:01 on Fri, 28
Dec 2012, Clive Page remarked:
But there aren't any "retail opportunities" in the underground labyrinth
connecting the tube tunnels to the barriers.

But there's a vast number connecting the Thameslink platforms and for
that matter the Midland Main Line platforms with the tube system,

You can miss most of them from the MML platforms if you take what's
perhaps the shortest route in any case - along the mezzanine to the
'Kissing couple' then down a fairly long staircase to the Western Ticket
Hall.

whether you choose to go the length of the old St.Pancras station or
across in the King's Cross direction and then down.

Including the Farmers Market under the St Pancras departure board which
seems to be an upmarket deli with the brand name "Farmers Market",
rather than an actual market with farmers selling things.
--
Roland Perry

Size of KX new forecourt
 

In message

, at 17:06:51 on Fri, 28 Dec 2012, Recliner
remarked:
But there aren't any "retail opportunities" in the underground labyrinth
connecting the tube tunnels to the barriers.

But there's a vast number connecting the Thameslink platforms and for
that matter the Midland Main Line platforms with the tube system, whether
you choose to go the length of the old St.Pancras station or across in
the King's Cross direction and then down.

True, but the original complaint had been about the longer routes from the
Picc and Vic platforms to the exits, and those have no shops. As for the
new TL platforms, they actually are quite a long way from the tube
platforms, shops or no shops.

The southern end of the TL platforms are actually very close to the
western end of the Northern Line platforms. And it's only a short
escalator from the eastern end of the Northern Line platforms to the
Piccadilly Line.

And 50% of the human race (ie, women) do actually like shops and
shopping...

Although I'm told that in the Winter the St Pancras shed is so cold that
you wouldn't actually want to linger in it.
--
Roland Perry

Size of KX new forecourt
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message
, at 17:06:51 on Fri, 28 Dec 2012, Recliner remarked:
But there aren't any "retail opportunities" in the underground labyrinth
connecting the tube tunnels to the barriers.

But there's a vast number connecting the Thameslink platforms and for
that matter the Midland Main Line platforms with the tube system, whether
you choose to go the length of the old St.Pancras station or across in
the King's Cross direction and then down.

True, but the original complaint had been about the longer routes from the
Picc and Vic platforms to the exits, and those have no shops. As for the
new TL platforms, they actually are quite a long way from the tube
platforms, shops or no shops.

The southern end of the TL platforms are actually very close to the
western end of the Northern Line platforms. And it's only a short
escalator from the eastern end of the Northern Line platforms to the Piccadilly Line.

And 50% of the human race (ie, women) do actually like shops and shopping...

Although I'm told that in the Winter the St Pancras shed is so cold that
you wouldn't actually want to linger in it.

True on the higher level (a gale blows right through the shed), not so bad
at ground level.

Size of KX new forecourt
 

On 28/12/2012 23:06, Recliner wrote:
True, but the original complaint had been about the longer routes from the
Picc and Vic platforms to the exits, and those have no shops.

That bit I really didn't understand, as the original routes from Picc
and Vic platforms to the original tube ticket hall still exist, and I
use them frequently.
As others have pointed out in this thread, you can still use the
original routes to reach King's Cross, and of course St.Pancras.

new TL platforms, they actually are quite a long way from the tube
platforms, shops or no shops. And 50% of the human race (ie, women) do
actually like shops and shopping...

I think you generalise far too much. I know lots of women who do not
like shopping in the over-priced stalls around a railway station, and
especially if they use the station frequently, wouldn't dream of using
any of them more than once in very many visits.

--
Clive Page

Size of KX new forecourt
 

In message , at 21:43:14 on Sat, 29
Dec 2012, Clive Page remarked:
True, but the original complaint had been about the longer routes from the
Picc and Vic platforms to the exits, and those have no shops.

That bit I really didn't understand, as the original routes from Picc
and Vic platforms to the original tube ticket hall still exist, and I
use them frequently.

Yes, but you have to know they are there. And no longer do they pass
near to WH Smith, the Whistlestop and the Pub on Platform 8.

As others have pointed out in this thread, you can still use the
original routes to reach King's Cross, and of course St.Pancras.

The St Pancras tunnel is long gone, and if it existed would no longer
exit by the trains on the Midland Mainline (which are now situated
halfway to Kentish Town.

new TL platforms, they actually are quite a long way from the tube
platforms, shops or no shops. And 50% of the human race (ie, women) do
actually like shops and shopping...

I think you generalise far too much. I know lots of women who do not
like shopping in the over-priced stalls around a railway station, and
especially if they use the station frequently, wouldn't dream of using
any of them more than once in very many visits.

Agreed, most of the shops seem to be for tourists, rather than hard
pressed regulars.
--
Roland Perry

Size of KX new forecourt
 

Clive Page wrote:

As others have pointed out in this thread, you can still use the
original routes to reach King's Cross, and of course St.Pancras.


Can you? I can't even find them or any signs pointing to them, never
mind actually using them. (In fact, I'm pretty sure the old passages
to St Pancras, and the old escalator into the heart of the old Kings
Cross concourse are all long gone.)

Size of KX new forecourt
 

On 30/12/2012 09:47, solar penguin wrote:
Can you? I can't even find them or any signs pointing to them, never
mind actually using them. (In fact, I'm pretty sure the old passages
to St Pancras, and the old escalator into the heart of the old Kings
Cross concourse are all long gone.)

Ah yes, those are, unfortunately. What I meant by "original" was the
routes that you could use say 5 years ago, via the Western Ticket Hall
before the recent upgrades (or downgrades) to the KX-St.Pancras complex.

Size of KX new forecourt
 

In message , at 21:47:20 on Sun, 30
Dec 2012, Clive Page remarked:
What I meant by "original" was the routes that you could use say 5
years ago, via the Western Ticket Hall before the recent upgrades (or
downgrades) to the KX-St.Pancras complex.

But the Western Ticket Hall is part of that [up|down]grade.
--
Roland Perry

Size of KX new forecourt
 

Clive Page wrote:
On 30/12/2012 09:47, solar penguin wrote:
Can you? I can't even find them or any signs pointing to them, never
mind actually using them. (In fact, I'm pretty sure the old passages
to St Pancras, and the old escalator into the heart of the old Kings
Cross concourse are all long gone.)

Ah yes, those are, unfortunately. What I meant by "original" was the
routes that you could use say 5 years ago, via the Western Ticket Hall
before the recent upgrades (or downgrades) to the KX-St.Pancras complex.

Is the Western Ticket Hall the one near the SSL platforms? If so, I
prefer to avoid that whenever possible. The long walk is preferable
than trying to fight my way with a bulky suitcase through confused
French crowds fresh off the Eurostar, who all seem to end up there
looking lost and/or forming long queues right across the hall to buy
single cash fares at the ticket office.

Size of KX new forecourt
 

In message
, at
16:26:41 on Sun, 30 Dec 2012, solar penguin
remarked:
Can you? I can't even find them or any signs pointing to them, never
mind actually using them. (In fact, I'm pretty sure the old passages
to St Pancras, and the old escalator into the heart of the old Kings
Cross concourse are all long gone.)

Ah yes, those are, unfortunately. What I meant by "original" was the
routes that you could use say 5 years ago, via the Western Ticket Hall
before the recent upgrades (or downgrades) to the KX-St.Pancras complex.

Is the Western Ticket Hall the one near the SSL platforms?

Took me a while to decode SSL. I'd call them the Circle/Met platforms.

If so, I prefer to avoid that whenever possible. The long walk is
preferable than trying to fight my way with a bulky suitcase through

Are you off the Eurostar too, or from the Midland Main Line.

One way to avoid the worst of that crowd (but admittedly not all of it)
is to take a diversion through the Eurostar departure area, but that
isn't stepless down to the eastern end of the western ticket hall.

confused French crowds fresh off the Eurostar, who all seem to end up
there looking lost and/or forming long queues right across the hall to
buy single cash fares at the ticket office.

I agree that the queuing there is a disgrace, and has been from almost
the day it opened.
--
Roland Perry

Size of KX new forecourt
 

On 31/12/2012 00:26, solar penguin wrote:
Is the Western Ticket Hall the one near the SSL platforms? If so, I
prefer to avoid that whenever possible. The long walk is preferable
than trying to fight my way with a bulky suitcase through confused
French crowds fresh off the Eurostar, who all seem to end up there
looking lost and/or forming long queues right across the hall to buy
single cash fares at the ticket office.

I somewhat agree. It seems to me that the new St.Pancras concourse has
the highest concentration of wheely-bags in Europe, all of them towed at
exactly the right distance to trip up any passing commuter.

--
Clive Page