Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 06:34:42PM +0000, Neil Williams wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote:
I think the question on the WLL is to what length platforms will be
extended to. It would make sense to go to 8 car lengths to allow for
longer Southern trains.
12, IMO. It'll only get busier, even more so if the SN service goes to
2tph.

On which subject, I see that Southern are extending the platforms at
places like Balham, Thornton Heath etc to allow for 10 carriage trains.

This would make a lot of sense, except that all those platforms (except
Battersea Park as previously noted) are already long enough for 8
carriages, and yet even at the busiest times of day they still run
plenty of 4 carriage trains. Longer platforms are no damned good unless
you've also got the carriages to put next to them, and the space in
sidings to service and store them overnight, and Southern are obviously
missing at least one of these.

Did I miss some announcement about Southern buying loads of carriages?

--
David Cantrell | Pope | First Church of the Symmetrical Internet

Longum iter est per praecepta, breve et efficax per exempla.

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

David Cantrell wrote:
On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 06:34:42PM +0000, Neil Williams wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote:
I think the question on the WLL is to what length platforms will be
extended to. It would make sense to go to 8 car lengths to allow for
longer Southern trains.
12, IMO. It'll only get busier, even more so if the SN service goes to
2tph.

On which subject, I see that Southern are extending the platforms at
places like Balham, Thornton Heath etc to allow for 10 carriage trains.

This would make a lot of sense, except that all those platforms (except
Battersea Park as previously noted) are already long enough for 8
carriages, and yet even at the busiest times of day they still run
plenty of 4 carriage trains. Longer platforms are no damned good unless
you've also got the carriages to put next to them, and the space in
sidings to service and store them overnight, and Southern are obviously
missing at least one of these.

Did I miss some announcement about Southern buying loads of carriages?

They are ordering lots of new trains, but many are on behalf of DfT and
won't be used on Southern.

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

Recliner wrote:

They are ordering lots of new trains, but many are on behalf of DfT and
won't be used on Southern.

You could argue that they (and a small subset of their passengers) don't
deserve them. The state of some of their Electrostars is disgusting
compared with LM's not all that much newer 350/1s which are always spotless
and without bits of panel hanging off, blown bulbs and graffiti in the
bogs.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

David Cantrell wrote in news:20130218142221.GF1562
@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk:


On which subject, I see that Southern are extending the platforms at
places like Balham, Thornton Heath etc to allow for 10 carriage trains.

This would make a lot of sense, except that all those platforms (except
Battersea Park as previously noted) are already long enough for 8
carriages, and yet even at the busiest times of day they still run
plenty of 4 carriage trains. Longer platforms are no damned good unless
you've also got the carriages to put next to them, and the space in
sidings to service and store them overnight, and Southern are obviously
missing at least one of these.

Did I miss some announcement about Southern buying loads of carriages?


Yes, and they will be five car units, hence the need for ten car platforms.

http://www.rail.co/2012/12/20/first-...rs-completion/

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

In article

, (Neil Williams) wrote:

Recliner wrote:

They are ordering lots of new trains, but many are on behalf of DfT and
won't be used on Southern.

You could argue that they (and a small subset of their passengers) don't
deserve them. The state of some of their Electrostars is disgusting
compared with LM's not all that much newer 350/1s which are always
spotless and without bits of panel hanging off, blown bulbs and graffiti
in the bogs.

I can't say I agree with you on that from my own recent observations.

Southern have 170 Electrostar carriages in 5-car trains on order for their
own use, plus 116 for DfT.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

wrote:

I can't say I agree with you on that from my own recent observations.

Maybe we get the dross on the MK-Clapham runs, then. Most times I use one
I am disappointed by the condition (and dull, dour atmosphere) of the unit,
and more than once also with the poor quality of the staff, who not
infrequently seem to have the London bus driver approach to customer
relations (i.e. communicate only in grunts, if they bother doing tickets at
all).

The Wessies on GatEx, for all I like them as what the Mk3 hauled coach
should have been, are also filthy. They shouldn't have done a refurb
without cleaning the muck off the lighting/ventilation conduit, it just
looks bad.

Southern have 170 Electrostar carriages in 5-car trains on order for their
own use, plus 116 for DfT.

5x20m is an unusual length, wonder why they don't go to a more standard
4/8/12?

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

Neil Williams wrote:

The Wessies on GatEx, for all I like them as what the Mk3 hauled coach
should have been, are also filthy. They shouldn't have done a refurb
without cleaning the muck off the lighting/ventilation conduit, it just
looks bad.

Ignoring the debate about the seats (which I like, but I know many don't),
and the daylight lighting (which I don't like), the fGW Mk3 refurbs are the
kind of standard they should have been done to.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

In article

, (Neil Williams) wrote:

wrote:

Southern have 170 Electrostar carriages in 5-car trains on order
for their own use, plus 116 for DfT.

5x20m is an unusual length, wonder why they don't go to a more standard
4/8/12?

Because Southern don't stick to a standard 4/8/12? They have 3 car units
which are run in all sorts of combinations, including 3 + 4 at least once
recently, I gather. The fact that Selhurst will have 3, 4 and 5 car units in
future is being catered for, I gather.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2year extension)
 

On 18 Feb, 07:59, Neil Williams
wrote:
Recliner wrote:
They are ordering lots of new trains, but many are on behalf of DfT and
won't be used on Southern.

You could argue that they (and a small subset of their passengers) don't
deserve them. *The state of some of their Electrostars is disgusting
compared with LM's not all that much newer 350/1s which are always spotless
and without bits of panel hanging off, blown bulbs and graffiti in the
bogs.

That is really sad to hear. Maybe it is time to utilize the services
of a security firm. A "presence" on trains, platforms, and by the
line side, would bring the behavior under control.

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 08:59:19PM +0000, Neil Williams wrote:
wrote:
Southern have 170 Electrostar carriages in 5-car trains on order for their
own use, plus 116 for DfT.
5x20m is an unusual length, wonder why they don't go to a more standard
4/8/12?

Because the platforms are being lengthened for *10* carriage trains,
which isn't a multiple of 4. And they're being lengthened to fit 10
carriage trains because they can't squeeze any more in without *very*
expensive work with things like acquiring land, moving roads and bridges,
and demolishing houses.

--
David Cantrell | Reality Engineer, Ministry of Information

I hate baby seals. They get asked to all the best clubs.

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

David Cantrell wrote:

Because the platforms are being lengthened for *10* carriage trains,
which isn't a multiple of 4. And they're being lengthened to fit 10
carriage trains because they can't squeeze any more in without *very*
expensive work with things like acquiring land, moving roads and bridges,
and demolishing houses.

SDO?

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 07:22:13PM +0000, Neil Williams wrote:
David Cantrell wrote:
Because the platforms are being lengthened for *10* carriage trains,
which isn't a multiple of 4. And they're being lengthened to fit 10
carriage trains because they can't squeeze any more in without *very*
expensive work with things like acquiring land, moving roads and bridges,
and demolishing houses.
SDO?

It appears that train companies are allergic to SDO, for no good reason.

Incidentally, I'm not even convinced that they need to lengthen the
platforms at Thornton Heath. There is a long section of unused platform
under the main station building and Brigstock Road that hasn't been used
for decades. It's dark, dingy, covered in umpty years of debris, but I
can't help but feel that restoring that to use would be cheaper. I also
don't see the point of installing shelters on platform four (only ever
used for five or six days a year, and would question whether it's worth
putting in a lift there - it's used so seldom that they would save money
by just putting old crumblies and their ilk in taxis on those handful of
days). Those shelters and the lift only become good value for money if
they're going to have a lot more trains stopping at the station, and so
use all four platforms regularly.

But the best money-wasting of all on this project is that a few weeks
before it started, there was a large gang of construction chappies
installing metal fencing down the middle of the island platform, between
the faces numbered 2 and 3, presumably to stop the inconsiderate from
leaping in front of trains running past platform 3 - not that I ever
recall anyone actually *doing* that at Thornton Heath. So anyway, they
installed this fencing, went away, then the next construction crew
arrived to extend the platforms, install a lift and a new footbridge -
and the first thing they did was rip out the fencing because it was in
the way. Brilliant!

--
David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire

People from my sort of background needed grammar schools to
compete with children from privileged homes like ... Tony Benn
-- Margaret Thatcher

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

In message
.
net, Neil Williams wrote:
Because the platforms are being lengthened for *10* carriage trains,
which isn't a multiple of 4. And they're being lengthened to fit 10
carriage trains because they can't squeeze any more in without *very*
expensive work with things like acquiring land, moving roads and bridges,
and demolishing houses.

SDO?

SDO is normally used to allow one set of doors to be off the platform,
not an entire coach at each end.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

Clive D. W. Feather wrote
Neil Williams wrote:
Because the platforms are being lengthened for *10* carriage
trains,
which isn't a multiple of 4. And they're being lengthened to fit
10
carriage trains because they can't squeeze any more in without
*very*
expensive work with things like acquiring land, moving roads and
bridges,
and demolishing houses.

SDO?

SDO is normally used to allow one set of doors to be off the
platform,
not an entire coach at each end.

LDO ?

For some NR services two or more coaches can be right off the platform.

On SWT, Clapham Junction, New Milton, Hinton Admiral, Ash Vale, Alton
and of course Bentley (Hants) with room for only 4 coaches.

And I remember taking my bicycle from Banbury to High Wycombe (about
1960) and the train having to be moved to let me get off from the rear
coach with the guard's van.

--
Mike D

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote:

SDO is normally used to allow one set of doors to be off the platform,
not an entire coach at each end.

SDO is presently used at Bletchley for 4 cars (a whole unit) off the end of
the 8 car platform on a number of trains. The platform is being extended,
but it has been used in that manner for well over 2 years.

I've also seen SDO 4 in use of 12 when (because of a points failure) a 12
car set departed Bletchley P6.

Why not? It of course helps if your units are gangwayed as LM's are and
all should be, IMO.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:38:01PM +0000, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In message
.
net, Neil Williams wrote:
Because the platforms are being lengthened for *10* carriage trains,
which isn't a multiple of 4. And they're being lengthened to fit 10
carriage trains because they can't squeeze any more in without *very*
expensive work with things like acquiring land, moving roads and bridges,
and demolishing houses.
SDO?
SDO is normally used to allow one set of doors to be off the platform,

No. On National Rail it's normally used to allow one or more carriages
to be off the end of the platform. eg at Billingshurst, where it's
common for 8 carriage trains to stop at a 4 carriage platform, or
Battersea Park where 8 carriage trains stop at a 7 carriage platform.

not an entire coach at each end.

You're right about that though. Trains normally stop so that the front
or the rear of the train is at the platform.

--
David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age

Just because it is possible to do this sort of thing
in the English language doesn't mean it should be done

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

In message

..net, at 09:36:55 on Mon, 25 Feb 2013, Neil Williams
remarked:
SDO is normally used to allow one set of doors to be off the platform,
not an entire coach at each end.

SDO is presently used at Bletchley for 4 cars (a whole unit) off the end of
the 8 car platform on a number of trains. The platform is being extended,
but it has been used in that manner for well over 2 years.

Until they recently lengthened the platform, northbound HSTs stopping at
Loughborough had the rear three coaches locked out, and the front three
southbound. That's for decades.

They also used SUO (selective unit opening - I just made that up) on the
rear unit of some 4+4 (or maybe 5+5) Meridians between Nottingham and
Loughborough southbound in the morning each hour, opening up the rear
unit for the first time at Leicester.

Infamously, Meridians (like Voyagers) don't have a corridor connection
between the two units.
--
Roland Perry

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

SDO is normally used to allow one set of doors to be off the
platform, not an entire coach at each end.

The Southern 377s have the capability not to enable the doors on one or
maybe more coaches, and they make helpful automated (though not always
correct) announcements like 'Customers for XYZ should travel in the front 7
coaches; this is coach 4 of 8'.

Peter

--
|| Peter CS ~ Epsom ~ UK | pjcs02 [at] gmail.com |

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 13:07:15 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
Infamously, Meridians (like Voyagers) don't have a corridor connection
between the two units.

They're also unpleasently narrow and cramped and very noisy because of the
underfloor engines. Hideous things both of them.

Spud

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

In article 01ce1205$f45a0600$LocalHost@default, (Michael R
N Dolbear) wrote:

Clive D. W. Feather wrote
Neil Williams wrote:
Because the platforms are being lengthened for *10* carriage trains,
which isn't a multiple of 4. And they're being lengthened to fit 10
carriage trains because they can't squeeze any more in without
*very* expensive work with things like acquiring land, moving roads
and bridges, and demolishing houses.

SDO?

SDO is normally used to allow one set of doors to be off the platform,
not an entire coach at each end.

LDO ?

For some NR services two or more coaches can be right off the
platform.

On SWT, Clapham Junction, New Milton, Hinton Admiral, Ash Vale, Alton
and of course Bentley (Hants) with room for only 4 coaches.

At Shawford with 10-car class 444 trains they stop so that only the first
door of the front coach actually opens. The back unit is well off the
platforms.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message


, at 09:36:55 on Mon, 25 Feb 2013, Neil Williams
remarked:
SDO is normally used to allow one set of doors to be off the platform,
not an entire coach at each end.

SDO is presently used at Bletchley for 4 cars (a whole unit) off the end
of the 8 car platform on a number of trains. The platform is being
extended, but it has been used in that manner for well over 2 years.

Until they recently lengthened the platform, northbound HSTs stopping
at Loughborough had the rear three coaches locked out, and the front
three southbound. That's for decades.

They also used SUO (selective unit opening - I just made that up) on
the rear unit of some 4+4 (or maybe 5+5) Meridians between Nottingham
and Loughborough southbound in the morning each hour, opening up the
rear unit for the first time at Leicester.

Infamously, Meridians (like Voyagers) don't have a corridor
connection between the two units.

Some FCC slows from Cambridge to the Cross do that, even using 317 units
that do have corridor connections. An 8-car leaves Cambridge with the back
unit locked out and stops at stations to Royston with only the front 4-car
unit occupied. At Royston they open up the back unit.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

In message , at 15:35:56
on Tue, 26 Feb 2013, remarked:
They also used SUO (selective unit opening - I just made that up) on
the rear unit of some 4+4 (or maybe 5+5) Meridians between Nottingham
and Loughborough southbound in the morning each hour, opening up the
rear unit for the first time at Leicester.

Infamously, Meridians (like Voyagers) don't have a corridor
connection between the two units.

Some FCC slows from Cambridge to the Cross do that, even using 317 units
that do have corridor connections. An 8-car leaves Cambridge with the back
unit locked out and stops at stations to Royston with only the front 4-car
unit occupied. At Royston they open up the back unit.

Sounds like exactly the same solution is being applied there.

And looking the other way through the telescope, last year I was on an
Electrostar from Liverpool St to Ely, having been sent from Stansted via
Bishops Stortford because XC had collapsed, and they had locked the
corridor connection to the front unit - which was confusing because they
wanted people travelling north of Cambridge to move into that unit while
they split the rest of the train off at Cambridge. The explanation in
uk.r at the time was they didn't want to spend extra time at Cambridge
locking the connection before splitting.
--
Roland Perry

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2year extension)
 

On 26/02/2013 21:35, wrote:

Infamously, Meridians (like Voyagers) don't have a corridor
connection between the two units.

Some FCC slows from Cambridge to the Cross do that, even using 317 units
that do have corridor connections. An 8-car leaves Cambridge with the back
unit locked out and stops at stations to Royston with only the front 4-car
unit occupied. At Royston they open up the back unit.

SWT do it on their 8-car 458 worked Aldershot-Waterloo via Ascot services.

The corridor connection is only available for staff use, and due to the
short platforms at Frimley, Camberley and Bagshot, the rear unit is
locked out of use until Ascot.

Unfortunately, this often leads to passenger confusion at Ash Vale, as
it has an 8 car platform and the 4 unlocked cars are at the opposite end
of the platform to the station entrance. The PIS doesn't make it clear
where you need to stand so unsuspecting passengers are often caught out.
Many guards will wait for passengers to run up the platform, but I've
seen quite a few left behind!

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

Spyke wrote:
On 26/02/2013 21:35, wrote:

Infamously, Meridians (like Voyagers) don't have a corridor
connection between the two units.

Some FCC slows from Cambridge to the Cross do that, even using 317 units
that do have corridor connections. An 8-car leaves Cambridge with the back
unit locked out and stops at stations to Royston with only the front 4-car
unit occupied. At Royston they open up the back unit.

SWT do it on their 8-car 458 worked Aldershot-Waterloo via Ascot services.

The corridor connection is only available for staff use, and due to the
short platforms at Frimley, Camberley and Bagshot, the rear unit is
locked out of use until Ascot.

Unfortunately, this often leads to passenger confusion at Ash Vale, as it
has an 8 car platform and the 4 unlocked cars are at the opposite end of
the platform to the station entrance. The PIS doesn't make it clear where
you need to stand so unsuspecting passengers are often caught out.
Many guards will wait for passengers to run up the platform, but I've
seen quite a few left behind!

Will the revamped version of these trains with new cabs not allow passenger
use use of the connection?

Southern Metro platform extensions (was TfL grant LOROL 2 year extension)
 

SDO is normally used to allow one set of doors to be off the
platform,
not an entire coach at each end.

LDO ?

For some NR services two or more coaches can be right off the platform.

[...]

(And other similar comments.)

Yes, for some reason I was thinking of a particular kind of SDO and
failed to remember that there are others, including the sort that cuts
out an entire unit.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org
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