Following the Pyongyang Metro pictures I posted, here's some I took
above ground, with a particular concentration on the over-crowded
public transport system.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...7633439541991/

Pyongyang is North Korea's showpiece city, so many of the buildings
are rather smart, and the roads are wide and often tree-lined. The
roads are also quite well maintained; the standard drops the moment
you get past the police checkpoints on the city limits.

Citizens are not allowed to own cars, and cycles were also banned
until recently, so many commuters have to walk if they can't squeeze
on to the packed, battered old trams, trolley buses and diesel buses.
There are a small number of smart, modern (mainly Chinese) cars, but
you probably have to be someone fairly important to be able to travel
in one. Mobile phones are now available, but you don't yet see many
people walking along, deep in conversation. You also see very few
overweight people; most have a vigorous style of power walking.

In message , at 17:12:52 on
Thu, 9 May 2013, Paul Corfield remarked:

I'm not sure exactly what mental image I had of Pyongyang but the
reality is very different. I was amazed to see the modern apartment
blocks. In some respects it reminds me of bits of Eastern Europe when
still behind the "Iron Curtain". I recall seeing a posh Western hotel
in Sofia with every luxury on displays and the rest of Sofia being decrepit

East Berlin was similar. If you could see it from the Wall, it was
luxurious, further away quite different.
--
Roland Perry

On 2013\05\09 17:21, Roland Perry wrote:

East Berlin was similar. If you could see it from the Wall, it was
luxurious, further away quite different.

How did they stand to gain from conning the West Germans? And since any
West German could get a visa to visit the east, knowledge of the charade
must have been common in the West.

--
Ukip - Breaking the fungus of British politics

In message , at 18:18:24 on
Thu, 9 May 2013, Basil Jet remarked:
East Berlin was similar. If you could see it from the Wall, it was
luxurious, further away quite different.

How did they stand to gain from conning the West Germans? And since any
West German could get a visa to visit the east, knowledge of the
charade must have been common in the West.

I don't know the answer to your questions, just reporting what was there
on the ground.
--
Roland Perry

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 09 May 2013 13:10:48 +0100, Recliner
wrote:

Following the Pyongyang Metro pictures I posted, here's some I took
above ground, with a particular concentration on the over-crowded
public transport system.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...7633439541991/

Pyongyang is North Korea's showpiece city, so many of the buildings
are rather smart, and the roads are wide and often tree-lined. The
roads are also quite well maintained; the standard drops the moment
you get past the police checkpoints on the city limits.

Citizens are not allowed to own cars, and cycles were also banned
until recently, so many commuters have to walk if they can't squeeze
on to the packed, battered old trams, trolley buses and diesel buses.
There are a small number of smart, modern (mainly Chinese) cars, but
you probably have to be someone fairly important to be able to travel
in one. Mobile phones are now available, but you don't yet see many
people walking along, deep in conversation. You also see very few
overweight people; most have a vigorous style of power walking.

Another interesting set of photos. I'm not sure exactly what mental
image I had of Pyongyang but the reality is very different. I was
amazed to see the modern apartment blocks. In some respects it
reminds me of bits of Eastern Europe when still behind the "Iron
Curtain". I recall seeing a posh Western hotel in Sofia with every
luxury on displays and the rest of Sofia being decrepit, public
transport creaking at the seams, the Metro nowhere near to completion
and next to nothing on sale in any of the shops. I suspect Pyongyang
is the same but even more impoverished that Sofia ever was.

It does look a very odd place with the wide roads but next to no
traffic. I am genuinely surprised that you were as free as you appear
to have been to take photos.

There seemed to be no restrictions on outdoor filming, and contrary to what
I was told before going there, no restrictions on what cameras could be
taken into the country. I had thought they may check memory cards, but in
fact they showed no interest. Bags were x-rated on entry and exit, but few
were opened (mine weren't). In fact, they were so disorganised that they
failed to collect my entry customs form and I had to go back and thrust it
into their hands. You have to fill in several short English language forms
on entry and exit, but I doubt that they get read.

There was only one place where cameras were definitely not allowed: the
mausoleum for Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il. They make you check in cameras,
bags and all the contents of your pockets apart from your wallet (including
medicines, keys, pens, etc). This rule is strictly enforced, and they have
a separate queue for foreigners who don't understand just how strict they
are (locals already know). The mausoleum is in Kim Il-sung's former palace
and is enormous, with long moving walkways, escalators, etc (with numerous
photos of the two Kims). It even includes two railway carriages (Kim
Jong-Il didn't like flying, so he went even very long distance by train).
I've not been inside the equivalents in Beijing, Hanoi and Moscow, but I
was told by those that have that the huge Pyongyang mausoleum knocks spots
off the rest.

Locals, usually in groups of work or class mates, turn up very smartly
dressed (best shiny business suits or uniforms for men, colourful trad
dresses for women), and they also request that foreigners make an effort:
men should wear ties, jackets should be closed and no open shoes worn. The
reverential locals don't look happy when the often scruffy foreign groups
are whisked to the front of the queue.

There's a special tram service from the main station to the mausoleum for
locals, with seats for everyone (unlike the normal local trams). Foreigners
go straight there on their normal tour buses.

On 09/05/2013 21:15, Recliner wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 09 May 2013 13:10:48 +0100, Recliner
wrote:

Following the Pyongyang Metro pictures I posted, here's some I took
above ground, with a particular concentration on the over-crowded
public transport system.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...7633439541991/

Pyongyang is North Korea's showpiece city, so many of the buildings
are rather smart, and the roads are wide and often tree-lined. The
roads are also quite well maintained; the standard drops the moment
you get past the police checkpoints on the city limits.

Citizens are not allowed to own cars, and cycles were also banned
until recently, so many commuters have to walk if they can't squeeze
on to the packed, battered old trams, trolley buses and diesel buses.
There are a small number of smart, modern (mainly Chinese) cars, but
you probably have to be someone fairly important to be able to travel
in one. Mobile phones are now available, but you don't yet see many
people walking along, deep in conversation. You also see very few
overweight people; most have a vigorous style of power walking.

Another interesting set of photos. I'm not sure exactly what mental
image I had of Pyongyang but the reality is very different. I was
amazed to see the modern apartment blocks. In some respects it
reminds me of bits of Eastern Europe when still behind the "Iron
Curtain". I recall seeing a posh Western hotel in Sofia with every
luxury on displays and the rest of Sofia being decrepit, public
transport creaking at the seams, the Metro nowhere near to completion
and next to nothing on sale in any of the shops. I suspect Pyongyang
is the same but even more impoverished that Sofia ever was.

It does look a very odd place with the wide roads but next to no
traffic. I am genuinely surprised that you were as free as you appear
to have been to take photos.

There seemed to be no restrictions on outdoor filming, and contrary to what
I was told before going there, no restrictions on what cameras could be
taken into the country. I had thought they may check memory cards, but in
fact they showed no interest. Bags were x-rated on entry and exit, but few
were opened (mine weren't). In fact, they were so disorganised that they
failed to collect my entry customs form and I had to go back and thrust it
into their hands. You have to fill in several short English language forms
on entry and exit, but I doubt that they get read.

There was only one place where cameras were definitely not allowed: the
mausoleum for Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il. They make you check in cameras,
bags and all the contents of your pockets apart from your wallet (including
medicines, keys, pens, etc). This rule is strictly enforced, and they have
a separate queue for foreigners who don't understand just how strict they
are (locals already know). The mausoleum is in Kim Il-sung's former palace
and is enormous, with long moving walkways, escalators, etc (with numerous
photos of the two Kims). It even includes two railway carriages (Kim
Jong-Il didn't like flying, so he went even very long distance by train).
I've not been inside the equivalents in Beijing, Hanoi and Moscow, but I
was told by those that have that the huge Pyongyang mausoleum knocks spots
off the rest.

Locals, usually in groups of work or class mates, turn up very smartly
dressed (best shiny business suits or uniforms for men, colourful trad
dresses for women), and they also request that foreigners make an effort:
men should wear ties, jackets should be closed and no open shoes worn. The
reverential locals don't look happy when the often scruffy foreign groups
are whisked to the front of the queue.

There's a special tram service from the main station to the mausoleum for
locals, with seats for everyone (unlike the normal local trams). Foreigners
go straight there on their normal tour buses.

The tram is Swiss, I have heard.

How much is tram fare in Pyongyang, BTW, any idea?

" wrote:
On 09/05/2013 21:15, Recliner wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 09 May 2013 13:10:48 +0100, Recliner
wrote:

Following the Pyongyang Metro pictures I posted, here's some I took
above ground, with a particular concentration on the over-crowded
public transport system.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...7633439541991/

Pyongyang is North Korea's showpiece city, so many of the buildings
are rather smart, and the roads are wide and often tree-lined. The
roads are also quite well maintained; the standard drops the moment
you get past the police checkpoints on the city limits.

Citizens are not allowed to own cars, and cycles were also banned
until recently, so many commuters have to walk if they can't squeeze
on to the packed, battered old trams, trolley buses and diesel buses.
There are a small number of smart, modern (mainly Chinese) cars, but
you probably have to be someone fairly important to be able to travel
in one. Mobile phones are now available, but you don't yet see many
people walking along, deep in conversation. You also see very few
overweight people; most have a vigorous style of power walking.

Another interesting set of photos. I'm not sure exactly what mental
image I had of Pyongyang but the reality is very different. I was
amazed to see the modern apartment blocks. In some respects it
reminds me of bits of Eastern Europe when still behind the "Iron
Curtain". I recall seeing a posh Western hotel in Sofia with every
luxury on displays and the rest of Sofia being decrepit, public
transport creaking at the seams, the Metro nowhere near to completion
and next to nothing on sale in any of the shops. I suspect Pyongyang
is the same but even more impoverished that Sofia ever was.

It does look a very odd place with the wide roads but next to no
traffic. I am genuinely surprised that you were as free as you appear
to have been to take photos.

There seemed to be no restrictions on outdoor filming, and contrary to what
I was told before going there, no restrictions on what cameras could be
taken into the country. I had thought they may check memory cards, but in
fact they showed no interest. Bags were x-rated on entry and exit, but few
were opened (mine weren't). In fact, they were so disorganised that they
failed to collect my entry customs form and I had to go back and thrust it
into their hands. You have to fill in several short English language forms
on entry and exit, but I doubt that they get read.

There was only one place where cameras were definitely not allowed: the
mausoleum for Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il. They make you check in cameras,
bags and all the contents of your pockets apart from your wallet (including
medicines, keys, pens, etc). This rule is strictly enforced, and they have
a separate queue for foreigners who don't understand just how strict they
are (locals already know). The mausoleum is in Kim Il-sung's former palace
and is enormous, with long moving walkways, escalators, etc (with numerous
photos of the two Kims). It even includes two railway carriages (Kim
Jong-Il didn't like flying, so he went even very long distance by train).
I've not been inside the equivalents in Beijing, Hanoi and Moscow, but I
was told by those that have that the huge Pyongyang mausoleum knocks spots
off the rest.

Locals, usually in groups of work or class mates, turn up very smartly
dressed (best shiny business suits or uniforms for men, colourful trad
dresses for women), and they also request that foreigners make an effort:
men should wear ties, jackets should be closed and no open shoes worn. The
reverential locals don't look happy when the often scruffy foreign groups
are whisked to the front of the queue.

There's a special tram service from the main station to the mausoleum for
locals, with seats for everyone (unlike the normal local trams). Foreigners
go straight there on their normal tour buses.

The tram is Swiss, I have heard.

How much is tram fare in Pyongyang, BTW, any idea?

No, but I wonder how they collect a fare on trams that crowded? Many of
them have a trailer car, and I saw no sign of conductors. If there is a
fare at all, they must depend on passengers' honesty to pay it, perhaps
reinforced by draconian penalties on fare dodgers who get caught. The Metro
fare is 5 won, so trams must be no more than that.

On 2013\05\09 21:15, Recliner wrote:

snip

Thanks for all of this!


--
Ukip - Breaking the fungus of British politics

On Thu, 09 May 2013 16:19:24 -0500
Recliner wrote:
No, but I wonder how they collect a fare on trams that crowded? Many of
them have a trailer car, and I saw no sign of conductors. If there is a
fare at all, they must depend on passengers' honesty to pay it, perhaps
reinforced by draconian penalties on fare dodgers who get caught. The Metro
fare is 5 won, so trams must be no more than that.

If its anything like Ukraine then there's either a conductor wandering around
or you have to pay the driver directly in which case its based on honesty
since you can board on all doors.

I've seen the Ukrainian ticket inspectors and you REALLY don't want to ****
with them. There's no polite lady inspector saying "excuse me Sir, you will
have to pay a penalty fare" over there. These are huge guys - probably ex
military or police - in groups of 3 or 4 who don't look like they'll take
"nyet" for an answer.

NJR

On Fri, 10 May 2013 10:29:14 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

On Thu, 09 May 2013 16:19:24 -0500
Recliner wrote:
No, but I wonder how they collect a fare on trams that crowded? Many of
them have a trailer car, and I saw no sign of conductors. If there is a
fare at all, they must depend on passengers' honesty to pay it, perhaps
reinforced by draconian penalties on fare dodgers who get caught. The Metro
fare is 5 won, so trams must be no more than that.

If its anything like Ukraine then there's either a conductor wandering around
or you have to pay the driver directly in which case its based on honesty
since you can board on all doors.

I've seen the Ukrainian ticket inspectors and you REALLY don't want to ****
with them. There's no polite lady inspector saying "excuse me Sir, you will
have to pay a penalty fare" over there. These are huge guys - probably ex
military or police - in groups of 3 or 4 who don't look like they'll take
"nyet" for an answer.

Yes, I suppose it must be something like that. The conductors couldn't
wander about the packed trams, many of which are trailer cars, but
they may mount spot raids. I don't think it's a country where people
choose to mess with the authorities...