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Happy and Prosperous 2014 to all
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Happy and Prosperous 2014 to all
"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message o.uk... On 03/01/2014 20:32, d wrote: If the government had been honest and said simply that the west coast main line has reached capacity and a new parallel line is needed I suspect most people would be for HS2 or some version of it. But selling it as a way just to shave 15 mins off a trip to brum was moronic and quite rightly people said it would be a waste of money. The official stuff did say that. Unfortunately no-one official seems to have stepped to shout about it once NIMBYs and the media decided to run with "OMFG 100 million billion quid to cut 20 minutes off London - Birmingham and who wants to go to anywhere outside the M25 anyway". It doesn't help that much of the official position seems to come from engineering types, so is accurate Except that it's not. By comparison with other commuter lines into London, Euston services are not "full" tim |
Happy and Prosperous 2014 to all
On 05/01/2014 08:54, tim...... wrote:
"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message o.uk... On 03/01/2014 20:32, d wrote: If the government had been honest and said simply that the west coast main line has reached capacity and a new parallel line is needed I suspect most people would be for HS2 or some version of it. But selling it as a way just to shave 15 mins off a trip to brum was moronic and quite rightly people said it would be a waste of money. The official stuff did say that. Unfortunately no-one official seems to have stepped to shout about it once NIMBYs and the media decided to run with "OMFG 100 million billion quid to cut 20 minutes off London - Birmingham and who wants to go to anywhere outside the M25 anyway". It doesn't help that much of the official position seems to come from engineering types, so is accurate Except that it's not. By comparison with other commuter lines into London, Euston services are not "full" Load factors on the central section of the Central Line are low[1] in comparison with Bangladesh Railways at a religious festival = Crossrail isn't needed. [1] At least I assume so, on the basis that not many people travel on the outside of Central Line trains. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Quote:
extra coach added on Fridays. It did leave from platform 1. How long is the equivalent train today? My point is that if in those B.R. days the train had been reduced to eight coaches, it too would have been massively overcrowded. The Cambridge Buffet Express was a loco-hauled five coach train. FCC trains are frequently only four coaches long. Some other examples: Victoria to Brighton; Waterloo to Portsmouth via Guildford; Waterloo to Bournemouth & Weymouth: all used to be 12 coach trains. They're not today. |
Happy and Prosperous 2014 to all
In message , at 15:37:39 on Sun, 5
Jan 2014, Robin9 remarked: In "my day" The Flying Scotsman was a loco-hauled 12 coach train with an extra coach added on Fridays. It did leave from platform 1. How long is the equivalent train today? My point is that if in those B.R. days the train had been reduced to eight coaches, it too would have been massively overcrowded. The 10am northbound currently seems to be called the "Northern Lights" and goes to Aberdeen. So will be an HST, most of which probably have 7 passenger cars. But these days there are many more other trains between London and Scotland to catch; not just the 10am. The Cambridge Buffet Express was a loco-hauled five coach train. FCC trains are frequently only four coaches long. Peak hour Cambridge trains are 12-car currently. -- Roland Perry |
Happy and Prosperous 2014 to all
On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 15:37:39 +0100, Robin9
wrote: ;140351 Wrote: In article , (Robin9) wrote: - d;140333 Wrote: - On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 13:41:38 -0800 Aurora wrote:- On Wed, 1 Jan 2014 19:18:18 +0000 (UTC), d wrote: - On Wed, 1 Jan 2014 17:24:25 +0000 Roland Perry wrote:- In message , at 09:04:08 on Wed, 1 Jan 2014, Aurora remarked: HMG in the UK is funding the largest program of rolling electrification to date. This may be the biggest rail investment since the 1950s modernization. More than the £9bn on the WCML upgrade or £15bn on Crossrail? Investment funding across the network for the next 5 years, which includes money to complete Crossrail and Thameslink, comes to £9bn- Which will be small change compared to the costs of HS2 if it goes ahead.- That money could do so much good if spent elsewhere on the UK network. The Welwyn bottleneck would be a good start.- If the government had been honest and said simply that the west coast main line has reached capacity and a new parallel line is needed I suspect most people would be for HS2 or some version of it. But selling it as a way just to shave 15 mins off a trip to brum was moronic and quite rightly people said it would be a waste of money. I wonder if it would be possible to increase the loading gauge on the WCML to allow double deck trains and increase capacity that way? Would be bloody expensive but perhaps not quite HS2 expensive.- Wouldn't it be cheaper to have longer trains? Before privatisation, trains on all main routes, not just WCML, were longer than they are now. As one who travelled frequently by train in the '60s, '70s and '80s, I am always struck by how short today's trains are. I am not at all surprised that there is overcrowding at peak times.- While the Sprinter revolution proved that frequent short trains were better than a few cross-country trains a day, the current East Coast trains for example are more or less all that can fit into the platforms. Remember the White Rose services that could only use platforms 1 and 6 at the Cross? and when in loco-hauled days did Cambridge-London trains extended to 12 20m coaches? -- Colin Rosenstiel In "my day" The Flying Scotsman was a loco-hauled 12 coach train with an extra coach added on Fridays. It did leave from platform 1. How long is the equivalent train today? My point is that if in those B.R. days the train had been reduced to eight coaches, it too would have been massively overcrowded. The Cambridge Buffet Express was a loco-hauled five coach train. FCC trains are frequently only four coaches long. Some other examples: Victoria to Brighton; Waterloo to Portsmouth via Guildford; Waterloo to Bournemouth & Weymouth: all used to be 12 coach trains. They're not today. You are correct. For a long time the DoT/DfT utilized this tactic as a way of reducing the role of the railways by attrition. The minister would authorize a new fleet of trains, but there would be fewer trains, and they would be shorter than the previous fleet. A re-signalling program would be sanctioned. But, the department would stipulate simpler (single lead) junction layouts. It is time to reverse this trend. -- http://www.991fmtalk.com/ The DMZ in Reno |
Happy and Prosperous 2014 to all
"Robin9" wrote In "my day" The Flying Scotsman was a loco-hauled 12 coach train with an extra coach added on Fridays. It did leave from platform 1. How long is the equivalent train today? My point is that if in those B.R. days the train had been reduced to eight coaches, it too would have been massively overcrowded. In the early years of the InterCity brand (1965-70) there were typically 5 daytime trains from Kings Cross to Edinburgh at 2 hour intervals, maybe with a relief to the Flying Scotsman. A Deltic + 12 Mk1 or Mk2 was about 260 metres long. There are now typically 3 Kings Cross - Edinburgh trains every 2 hours. They are either a 91+9 Mk4 + DVT, or 2+9 HST, in either case about 247 metres - so only about half a coach shorter, and an extra coach would cause problems with train lengths. It has long been accepted that increasing frequency of InterCity trains brings in an increase in passengers, which more than outweighs the extra costs involved. The one big mistake with implementing this philosophy was Operation Princess on Cross-country, when frequency was doubled, but seats per hour remained essentially the same, resulting in a lot of overcrowding. Peter |
Happy and Prosperous 2014 to all
"Robin9" wrote in message ... ;140351 Wrote: In article , (Robin9) wrote: - d;140333 Wrote: - On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 13:41:38 -0800 Aurora wrote:- On Wed, 1 Jan 2014 19:18:18 +0000 (UTC), d wrote: - On Wed, 1 Jan 2014 17:24:25 +0000 Roland Perry wrote:- In message , at 09:04:08 on Wed, 1 Jan 2014, Aurora remarked: HMG in the UK is funding the largest program of rolling electrification to date. This may be the biggest rail investment since the 1950s modernization. More than the £9bn on the WCML upgrade or £15bn on Crossrail? Investment funding across the network for the next 5 years, which includes money to complete Crossrail and Thameslink, comes to £9bn- Which will be small change compared to the costs of HS2 if it goes ahead.- That money could do so much good if spent elsewhere on the UK network. The Welwyn bottleneck would be a good start.- If the government had been honest and said simply that the west coast main line has reached capacity and a new parallel line is needed I suspect most people would be for HS2 or some version of it. But selling it as a way just to shave 15 mins off a trip to brum was moronic and quite rightly people said it would be a waste of money. I wonder if it would be possible to increase the loading gauge on the WCML to allow double deck trains and increase capacity that way? Would be bloody expensive but perhaps not quite HS2 expensive.- Wouldn't it be cheaper to have longer trains? Before privatisation, trains on all main routes, not just WCML, were longer than they are now. As one who travelled frequently by train in the '60s, '70s and '80s, I am always struck by how short today's trains are. I am not at all surprised that there is overcrowding at peak times.- While the Sprinter revolution proved that frequent short trains were better than a few cross-country trains a day, the current East Coast trains for example are more or less all that can fit into the platforms. Remember the White Rose services that could only use platforms 1 and 6 at the Cross? and when in loco-hauled days did Cambridge-London trains extended to 12 20m coaches? -- Colin Rosenstiel In "my day" The Flying Scotsman was a loco-hauled 12 coach train with an extra coach added on Fridays. It did leave from platform 1. How long is the equivalent train today? My point is that if in those B.R. days the train had been reduced to eight coaches, it too would have been massively overcrowded. The Cambridge Buffet Express was a loco-hauled five coach train. FCC trains are frequently only four coaches long. Some other examples: Victoria to Brighton; Waterloo to Portsmouth via Guildford; Waterloo to Bournemouth & Weymouth: all used to be 12 coach trains. They're not today. -- Robin9 |
Happy and Prosperous 2014 to all
"Roland Perry" wrote The 10am northbound currently seems to be called the "Northern Lights" and goes to Aberdeen. So will be an HST, most of which probably have 7 passenger cars. But these days there are many more other trains between London and Scotland to catch; not just the 10am. HSTs on East Coast are 2+9, i.e. 9 passenger cars, with only a small part of the TGS taken up by a guard's and luggage compartment. Mk4 sets are 91+9 Mk4s + DVT. In Mk1 days a lot of the second class accommodation on the ECML was in 48-seater SKs - very comfortable for those who like compartment stock, but two Mk4s have more seats than 3 Mk1 SKs. Peter |
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