London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

On Sat, 24 Jan 2015 09:42:10 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 01:31:19 on
Sat, 24 Jan 2015, Paul Corfield remarked:
Crossrail will be largely segregated from other services so there are
fewer opportunities for things to go wrong than on Thameslink.

Eh? Loads of freight on GWML and GEML. Plenty of other services on
those lines too. Frequent suicides in West London, never ending
signal and wiring problems on both NR stretches of line.

And of course many (most?) of the problems with Thameslink seem to be in
the core. Wellies required again until at least 2pm today, for example.

IIRC The original Metropolitan Railway was built on a drained river
bed in the Farringdon Area. Moreover, the Widened Lines pass under
the original pair at this point. This makes for a drainage headache
modern engineers would avoid.

Crossrail is being constructed to a much higher standards (Although I
do wonder about the spray- on concrete in the station areas). OTOH,
given that Crossrail will run thru three different signalling systems,
integrate into the timetables of two franchises, and mix with local
and freight traffic, one can see it will present an operating
challenge.

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

In message , at 12:12:28 on
Sat, 24 Jan 2015, e27002 aurora remarked:
given that Crossrail will run thru three different signalling systems,
integrate into the timetables of two franchises, and mix with local
and freight traffic, one can see it will present an operating
challenge.

Three franchises if you count HEx.
--
Roland Perry

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:12:28 on
Sat, 24 Jan 2015, e27002 aurora remarked:
given that Crossrail will run thru three different signalling systems,
integrate into the timetables of two franchises, and mix with local
and freight traffic, one can see it will present an operating
challenge.

Three franchises if you count HEx.

True, though the only tracks they'll share are in Heathrow itself, as
Crossrail will use the GW relief lines and HEx is on the mains.

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

In message
-septemb
er.org, at 12:45:24 on Sat, 24 Jan 2015, Recliner
remarked:
given that Crossrail will run thru three different signalling systems,
integrate into the timetables of two franchises, and mix with local
and freight traffic, one can see it will present an operating
challenge.

Three franchises if you count HEx.

True, though the only tracks they'll share are in Heathrow itself, as
Crossrail will use the GW relief lines and HEx is on the mains.

My impression was that they wouldn't be doing much (if any) track
sharing with Greater Anglia between Stratford and Shenfield.
--
Roland Perry

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

On Sat, 24 Jan 2015 13:02:31 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message
-septemb
er.org, at 12:45:24 on Sat, 24 Jan 2015, Recliner
remarked:
given that Crossrail will run thru three different signalling systems,
integrate into the timetables of two franchises, and mix with local
and freight traffic, one can see it will present an operating
challenge.

Three franchises if you count HEx.

True, though the only tracks they'll share are in Heathrow itself, as
Crossrail will use the GW relief lines and HEx is on the mains.

My impression was that they wouldn't be doing much (if any) track
sharing with Greater Anglia between Stratford and Shenfield.

Yes, I think you're right.

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

There is always the potential for failures on main lines to mean that
signalliers will reroute some trains to slow lines. I understand that
in the longer term it may be necessary to shove HEX on to the local
lines (but I might be wrong on that). Depends entirely on the scale of
FGW services post electrification and catering for growth.

What's really needed for HEX is another pair of lines Airport Jn-Padd.
Wharncliffe Viaduct and Ealing Broadway-West Ealing are the main problems
to achieving that, as far as I can see.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
(Is misc.transport.urban-tramsit [sic] a real group?)

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

On Sat, 24 Jan 2015 14:29:27 GMT, Anna Noyd-Dryver
wrote:


Anna Noyd-Dryver
(Is misc.transport.urban-tramsit [sic] a real group?)

No, it is a typographical error.

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

I understand that
in the longer term it may be necessary to shove HEX on to the local
lines (but I might be wrong on that). Depends entirely on the scale of
FGW services post electrification and catering for growth.

Or, as they are known to Great Westernists, the relief lines.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

On 2015\01\24 14:13, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2015 13:02:31 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message
-septemb
er.org, at 12:45:24 on Sat, 24 Jan 2015, Recliner
remarked:
given that Crossrail will run thru three different signalling systems,
integrate into the timetables of two franchises, and mix with local
and freight traffic, one can see it will present an operating
challenge.

Three franchises if you count HEx.

True, though the only tracks they'll share are in Heathrow itself, as
Crossrail will use the GW relief lines and HEx is on the mains.

My impression was that they wouldn't be doing much (if any) track
sharing with Greater Anglia between Stratford and Shenfield.

There will still be some in the peaks as Crossrail will still run some
trains into Liverpool St rather than in to the tunnels post 2019.

Will they not be sharing with South Eastern in the Abbey Wood area?

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

In article , (Basil Jet)
wrote:

On 2015\01\24 14:13, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2015 13:02:31 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message



rg, at 12:45:24 on Sat, 24 Jan 2015, Recliner
remarked:
given that Crossrail will run thru three different signalling
systems, integrate into the timetables of two franchises, and mix
with local and freight traffic, one can see it will present an
operating challenge.

Three franchises if you count HEx.

True, though the only tracks they'll share are in Heathrow itself, as
Crossrail will use the GW relief lines and HEx is on the mains.

My impression was that they wouldn't be doing much (if any) track
sharing with Greater Anglia between Stratford and Shenfield.

There will still be some in the peaks as Crossrail will still run some
trains into Liverpool St rather than in to the tunnels post 2019.

Will they not be sharing with South Eastern in the Abbey Wood area?

Parallel but separate tracks, surely?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

On 2015\01\24 18:45, wrote:
On Saturday, 24 January 2015 18:38:08 UTC, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2015\01\24 14:13, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2015 13:02:31 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message
-septemb
er.org, at 12:45:24 on Sat, 24 Jan 2015, Recliner
remarked:
given that Crossrail will run thru three different signalling systems,
integrate into the timetables of two franchises, and mix with local
and freight traffic, one can see it will present an operating
challenge.

Three franchises if you count HEx.

True, though the only tracks they'll share are in Heathrow itself, as
Crossrail will use the GW relief lines and HEx is on the mains.

My impression was that they wouldn't be doing much (if any) track
sharing with Greater Anglia between Stratford and Shenfield.

There will still be some in the peaks as Crossrail will still run some
trains into Liverpool St rather than in to the tunnels post 2019.

Will they not be sharing with South Eastern in the Abbey Wood area?

No as there will be two separate pairs of track to the north.

Thanks.

[utl added]

Were they drunk when they designed this branch? After Custom House they
should have had a station at City Airport (in King George V Dock), then
a surface station on the south side of the Central Way / Western Way
roundabout, then another at the Eastern Way / Carlyle Road roundabout,
then interchange at either Belvedere or Erith. By not having to build
and man an underground station in Woolwich 200m from the brand new DLR
station, surely this would have given a better benefit-cost ratio than
what they are doing, and solved the Thamesmead problem properly (which
an extra service away over in Abbey Wood just will not do).

The only East London interchange with the Jubilee in Canary Wharf is
terrible too. I see no indication that travelators are planned.

The Crossrail Website says there is safeguarding from Abbey Wood to Hoo
Junction. Is that just for overhead electrification or more tracks? And
why Hoo Junction of all places? Was this something to do with Boris Island?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossra...rt_of_services says that some
services west of Paddington will be transferred to Crossrail Ltd from
May 2018, and services east of Paddington will start in December 2018
(presumably turning somewhere out at Old Oak, because there is no
turning capacity at Paddington deep level platforms planned), but
through trains will not start until December 2019. So for the whole of
2019, Crossrail east and Crossrail west trains will be sharing track
from Paddington to Old Oak with the only interchange being up and down
escalators at Paddington! That can't be right!

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

Basil Jet wrote:

The only East London interchange with the Jubilee in Canary Wharf is
terrible too. I see no indication that travelators are planned.

What about at Stratford?

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

On 2015\01\25 09:16, Recliner wrote:
Basil Jet wrote:

The only East London interchange with the Jubilee in Canary Wharf is
terrible too. I see no indication that travelators are planned.

What about at Stratford?

I meant on that branch. Stratford is no use for someone trying to get
from Custom House to Bermondsey.

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

Basil Jet wrote:
On 2015\01\25 09:16, Recliner wrote:
Basil Jet wrote:

The only East London interchange with the Jubilee in Canary Wharf is
terrible too. I see no indication that travelators are planned.

What about at Stratford?

I meant on that branch. Stratford is no use for someone trying to get
from Custom House to Bermondsey.

Why wouldn't they use the DLR, which provides the local links in Docklands?
It's an easy change at Canning Town.

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

On 2015\01\25 09:57, Recliner wrote:
Basil Jet wrote:
On 2015\01\25 09:16, Recliner wrote:
Basil Jet wrote:

The only East London interchange with the Jubilee in Canary Wharf is
terrible too. I see no indication that travelators are planned.

What about at Stratford?

I meant on that branch. Stratford is no use for someone trying to get
from Custom House to Bermondsey.

Why wouldn't they use the DLR, which provides the local links in Docklands?
It's an easy change at Canning Town.


Of course, but that has so many extra stops that it might still be
quicker to change from Crossrail at Canary Wharf.

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

Basil Jet wrote:
On 2015\01\25 09:57, Recliner wrote:
Basil Jet wrote:
On 2015\01\25 09:16, Recliner wrote:
Basil Jet wrote:

The only East London interchange with the Jubilee in Canary Wharf is
terrible too. I see no indication that travelators are planned.

What about at Stratford?

I meant on that branch. Stratford is no use for someone trying to get
from Custom House to Bermondsey.

Why wouldn't they use the DLR, which provides the local links in Docklands?
It's an easy change at Canning Town.


Of course, but that has so many extra stops that it might still be
quicker to change from Crossrail at Canary Wharf.

It's only two stops from Custom House DLR to Canning Town, where there's an
excellent interchange with the Jubilee Line.

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 12:31:32PM +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:12:28 on
Sat, 24 Jan 2015, e27002 aurora remarked:
given that Crossrail will run thru three different signalling systems,
integrate into the timetables of two franchises, and mix with local
and freight traffic, one can see it will present an operating
challenge.
Three franchises if you count HEx.

Will the Heathrow Express (and Heathrow Connect) still exist in the long
term? After all Crossrail will go from Paddington to Heathrow.

--
David Cantrell | Pope | First Church of the Symmetrical Internet

Planckton: n, the smallest possible living thing

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

David Cantrell wrote:
On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 12:31:32PM +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:12:28 on
Sat, 24 Jan 2015, e27002 aurora remarked:
given that Crossrail will run thru three different signalling systems,
integrate into the timetables of two franchises, and mix with local
and freight traffic, one can see it will present an operating
challenge.
Three franchises if you count HEx.

Will the Heathrow Express (and Heathrow Connect) still exist in the long
term? After all Crossrail will go from Paddington to Heathrow.

Crossrail takes over HC, but HEx is supposed to live on, as a faster, more
premium non-stop service to Paddington. Time will tell if the market will
support it long term; it may depend on what terminals the two serve.

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

On 2015\01\26 11:51, Recliner wrote:
David Cantrell wrote:
On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 12:31:32PM +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:12:28 on
Sat, 24 Jan 2015, e27002 aurora remarked:
given that Crossrail will run thru three different signalling systems,
integrate into the timetables of two franchises, and mix with local
and freight traffic, one can see it will present an operating
challenge.
Three franchises if you count HEx.

Will the Heathrow Express (and Heathrow Connect) still exist in the long
term? After all Crossrail will go from Paddington to Heathrow.

Crossrail takes over HC, but HEx is supposed to live on, as a faster, more
premium non-stop service to Paddington. Time will tell if the market will
support it long term; it may depend on what terminals the two serve.

Crossrail will serve all except T5. HEx will presumably continue to
serve all except T4.

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

In message , at 11:37:41
on Mon, 26 Jan 2015, David Cantrell remarked:
given that Crossrail will run thru three different signalling systems,
integrate into the timetables of two franchises, and mix with local
and freight traffic, one can see it will present an operating
challenge.
Three franchises if you count HEx.

Will the Heathrow Express (and Heathrow Connect) still exist in the long
term? After all Crossrail will go from Paddington to Heathrow.

As far as I know HEx has access rights until 2023, and there could well
be negotiations to send their trains through Crossrail, but retaining
the non-stop west of Paddington, after that.

Keen observers will note that the Crossrail network only goes to T4, not
T5.

Connect will merge into Crossrail.
--
Roland Perry

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

Basil Jet wrote:
On 2015\01\26 11:51, Recliner wrote:
David Cantrell wrote:
On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 12:31:32PM +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:12:28 on
Sat, 24 Jan 2015, e27002 aurora remarked:
given that Crossrail will run thru three different signalling systems,
integrate into the timetables of two franchises, and mix with local
and freight traffic, one can see it will present an operating
challenge.
Three franchises if you count HEx.

Will the Heathrow Express (and Heathrow Connect) still exist in the long
term? After all Crossrail will go from Paddington to Heathrow.

Crossrail takes over HC, but HEx is supposed to live on, as a faster, more
premium non-stop service to Paddington. Time will tell if the market will
support it long term; it may depend on what terminals the two serve.

Crossrail will serve all except T5. HEx will presumably continue to serve all except T4.

Which will give HEx an advantage with BA pax.

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

In message
-septemb
er.org, at 15:18:47 on Mon, 26 Jan 2015, Recliner
remarked:

Crossrail will serve all except T5. HEx will presumably continue to serve all except T4.

Which will give HEx an advantage with BA pax.

The way they've served the three terminals [treating 123 as a single
point] with one through train and a shuttle has always been a dogs
dinner. BA probably has the clout to get BAA run the direct train to
whichever of T4/5 they are using this week (so to speak).

The Crossrail trains will be 4tph, so there's a possibility they could
interleave them to both termini, and have a 4tph service from each;
half-and-half. With judicious timing you could perhaps offer an easy
change at 123 from a Crossrail train to a HEx not far behind (from the
'other' terminus). That would of course require HEx to be able to
overtake the Crossrail train.

The plans for the timetabling were all consulted on and finalised five
years ago, I think. So this is perhaps closing the stable door after the
horse has been chopped up and stuck in a Lasagne.
--
Roland Perry

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message -septemb
er.org, at 15:18:47 on Mon, 26 Jan 2015, Recliner remarked:

Crossrail will serve all except T5. HEx will presumably continue to serve all except T4.

Which will give HEx an advantage with BA pax.

The way they've served the three terminals [treating 123 as a single
point] with one through train and a shuttle has always been a dogs
dinner. BA probably has the clout to get BAA run the direct train to
whichever of T4/5 they are using this week (so to speak).

BA is fixed in T5 and T3, with a few remaining flights still in T1, soon to
be transferred.

The Crossrail trains will be 4tph, so there's a possibility they could
interleave them to both termini, and have a 4tph service from each;
half-and-half. With judicious timing you could perhaps offer an easy
change at 123 from a Crossrail train to a HEx not far behind (from the
'other' terminus). That would of course require HEx to be able to
overtake the Crossrail train.

As it should, as it'll be running non-stop on the main line, with Crossrail
on the relief line. I don't think there's then a grade-separated route
from the mains to the Crossrail tunnel, so HEx will have to remain a
Paddington-only service.

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

In message
-septem
ber.org, at 17:01:17 on Mon, 26 Jan 2015, Recliner
remarked:
Crossrail will serve all except T5. HEx will presumably continue to serve all except T4.

Which will give HEx an advantage with BA pax.

The way they've served the three terminals [treating 123 as a single
point] with one through train and a shuttle has always been a dogs
dinner. BA probably has the clout to get BAA run the direct train to
whichever of T4/5 they are using this week (so to speak).

BA is fixed in T5 and T3, with a few remaining flights still in T1, soon to
be transferred.

I think we all understand that to be the case. Originally HEx went to 4
(before T5 was built). Do you think it was a co-incidence it was swung
to T5?

The Crossrail trains will be 4tph, so there's a possibility they could
interleave them to both termini, and have a 4tph service from each;
half-and-half. With judicious timing you could perhaps offer an easy
change at 123 from a Crossrail train to a HEx not far behind (from the
'other' terminus). That would of course require HEx to be able to
overtake the Crossrail train.

As it should, as it'll be running non-stop on the main line, with Crossrail
on the relief line. I don't think there's then a grade-separated route
from the mains to the Crossrail tunnel, so HEx will have to remain a
Paddington-only service.

--
Roland Perry

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message -septem
ber.org, at 17:01:17 on Mon, 26 Jan 2015, Recliner remarked:
Crossrail will serve all except T5. HEx will presumably continue to
serve all except T4.

Which will give HEx an advantage with BA pax.

The way they've served the three terminals [treating 123 as a single
point] with one through train and a shuttle has always been a dogs
dinner. BA probably has the clout to get BAA run the direct train to
whichever of T4/5 they are using this week (so to speak).

BA is fixed in T5 and T3, with a few remaining flights still in T1, soon to
be transferred.

I think we all understand that to be the case. Originally HEx went to 4
(before T5 was built). Do you think it was a co-incidence it was swung to T5?

Not at all.

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

On 2015\01\26 17:01, Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message -septemb
er.org, at 15:18:47 on Mon, 26 Jan 2015, Recliner remarked:

Crossrail will serve all except T5. HEx will presumably continue to serve all except T4.

Which will give HEx an advantage with BA pax.

The way they've served the three terminals [treating 123 as a single
point] with one through train and a shuttle has always been a dogs
dinner. BA probably has the clout to get BAA run the direct train to
whichever of T4/5 they are using this week (so to speak).

BA is fixed in T5 and T3, with a few remaining flights still in T1, soon to
be transferred.

The Crossrail trains will be 4tph, so there's a possibility they could
interleave them to both termini, and have a 4tph service from each;
half-and-half. With judicious timing you could perhaps offer an easy
change at 123 from a Crossrail train to a HEx not far behind (from the
'other' terminus). That would of course require HEx to be able to
overtake the Crossrail train.

As it should, as it'll be running non-stop on the main line, with Crossrail
on the relief line. I don't think there's then a grade-separated route
from the mains to the Crossrail tunnel, so HEx will have to remain a
Paddington-only service.

.... which seems a bit pointless. HEx from St Pancras via the Dudding
Hill line I can see, but of course that requires electrification and
perhaps a flyover in Acton. It would be better if it came from Gatwick.

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 11:51:57AM +0000, Recliner wrote:
David Cantrell wrote:
Will the Heathrow Express (and Heathrow Connect) still exist in the long
term? After all Crossrail will go from Paddington to Heathrow.
Crossrail takes over HC, but HEx is supposed to live on, as a faster, more
premium non-stop service to Paddington. Time will tell if the market will
support it long term; it may depend on what terminals the two serve.

Hmm.

HEx's selling point, to me, was that it's a hell of a lot faster than
the Jubilee Line. Crossrail will still be a hell of a lot faster than
the Jubilee Line and I'm not convinced that the price differential of
HEx vs HC/Crossrail is worth the difference. In fact, once there are
direct trains from Heathrow to Liverpool St instead of having to change
at Paddington the HEx will, I think, look even less attractive.

But then I suppose that that's why HEx is so heavily advertised. I
recently watched a recording of the USA vs All Blacks rugby match from
back in November. HEx sponsor the USA team and were heavily advertised
around the pitch at Soldier Field and IIRC I've seen their ads at
stadiums in NZ and Aus too.

--
David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic

Just because it is possible to do this sort of thing
in the English language doesn't mean it should be done

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

David Cantrell wrote:
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 11:51:57AM +0000, Recliner wrote:
David Cantrell wrote:
Will the Heathrow Express (and Heathrow Connect) still exist in the long
term? After all Crossrail will go from Paddington to Heathrow.
Crossrail takes over HC, but HEx is supposed to live on, as a faster, more
premium non-stop service to Paddington. Time will tell if the market will
support it long term; it may depend on what terminals the two serve.

Hmm.

HEx's selling point, to me, was that it's a hell of a lot faster than
the Jubilee Line. Crossrail will still be a hell of a lot faster than
the Jubilee Line and I'm not convinced that the price differential of
HEx vs HC/Crossrail is worth the difference. In fact, once there are
direct trains from Heathrow to Liverpool St instead of having to change
at Paddington the HEx will, I think, look even less attractive.

I suspect you meant the Piccadilly Line?

But then I suppose that that's why HEx is so heavily advertised. I
recently watched a recording of the USA vs All Blacks rugby match from
back in November. HEx sponsor the USA team and were heavily advertised
around the pitch at Soldier Field and IIRC I've seen their ads at
stadiums in NZ and Aus too.

There's also the official HEx touts at Heathrow trying to sell you tickets
before you see the Underground sign.

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

On 26/01/2015 23:26, Basil Jet wrote:
[...]
... which seems a bit pointless. HEx from St Pancras via the Dudding
Hill line I can see, but of course that requires electrification and
perhaps a flyover in Acton. It would be better if it came from Gatwick.

There's not enough space in St Pancras as it is (for Midland main line
services). Also how busy is the Dudding Hill line with freight?

And it's a bit of a long way round!

London Crossrail likely to work any better than Thameslink?
 

On 2015\01\29 00:13, Mizter T wrote:

On 26/01/2015 23:26, Basil Jet wrote:
[...]
... which seems a bit pointless. HEx from St Pancras via the Dudding
Hill line I can see, but of course that requires electrification and
perhaps a flyover in Acton. It would be better if it came from Gatwick.

There's not enough space in St Pancras as it is (for Midland main line
services). Also how busy is the Dudding Hill line with freight?

No idea, but a St Pancras to Heathrow service via this route was floated
regularly in the late 1990s.

And it's a bit of a long way round!

It's not ideal but hardly long. It's about two miles longer than the
fairly straight road route from St Pancras to Acton Main Line. Much
quicker than going to Farringdon or Paddington and getting a stopping train.