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Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trains to London
From
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/trans...n-9295476.html Matthew Beard, Transport Editor Paris Metro bosses today backed plans to emulate the city’s use of driverless underground trains in London. RATP has advised Transport for London as it plans to convert four Tube lines to full automation, beginning with the Piccadilly line in the mid 2020s. Under the £16 billion programme, passengers will travel on trains “driven” from a control centre. Some unions have opposed the plans, insisting they pose a safety risk while many passengers remain unnerved at the prospect of a cab-less train. The Paris Metro has led the way in Europe, with the first driverless line opening in 1998, a second in 2012 and a third due by the end of the decade. The Metro suffered its last major strike in 1995 and reforms made in 2000 force unions to the negotiating table before a strike ballot can be held. Such rules are the envy of TfL as it seeks 950 job cuts in its programme to close Tube ticket offices, a move that has promoted the threat of a fresh wave strikes, with RMT members due to stage a 48-hour strike from tonight. Trains in Paris operate to the highest level of automation — more advanced than the driverless trains of London’s DLR — with automatic trains braking and accelerating, doors operated remotely and tracks protected by platform edge screen doors familiar to Jubilee line passengers. With no staff on the automated lines, a passenger alarm connects to RATP’s control centre using live CCTV cameras which also show views of the tunnel ahead. Phillipe Mancone, Chief of Line 1 at RATP, insisted that full automation was not a blanket solution in Paris, whose 14 lines carry five million passengers a day. He said it had transformed the performance of Line 1, which opened two years ago and is the same as the Victoria line in length and capacity, carrying 750,000 passengers a day. He said: “It is a good system for Paris on lines which have reached saturation point. These are typically lines running through tourist hotspots and one-off events where there are sudden peaks and you need to respond in real time. It gives you safety, adaptability and increased reliability and performance.” Advanced signalling enables trains to run at a rate of 38 per hour — 85 seconds apart — in the peak, four more than London’s top-performing Victoria Line. Staffing levels have been cut from 250 to 40. Mr Mancone said: “We had to discuss it with the unions for years to show them the benefits. It hasn’t weakened the unions, it’s just another way of working. Automation is not a religion; on some lines it is not necessary.” Gareth Powell, London Underground’s director of strategy, said by following the model, the Piccadilly Line could achieve a 60 per cent capacity increase. In February, TfL began the search for a supplier of 250 driverless Tube trains to operate from the middle of the next decade on the Piccadilly, Central, Bakerloo and Waterloo & City lines. |
Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trains to London
On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 16:13:59 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: Matthew Beard, Transport Editor The Paris Metro has led the way in Europe, with the first driverless line opening in 1998, a second in 2012 and a third due by the end of the decade. Someone should point out to Mr Beard that the DLR has been driverless since 1987 and the victoria line automated since 1967. The Metro suffered its last major strike in 1995 and reforms made in 2000 force unions to the negotiating table before a strike ballot can be held. Yeah, right. Unions in france tend to ignore the law when it suits them as recent events in Calais have demonstrated. -- Spud |
Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trains to London
wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 16:13:59 +0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: Matthew Beard, Transport Editor The Paris Metro has led the way in Europe, with the first driverless line opening in 1998, a second in 2012 and a third due by the end of the decade. Someone should point out to Mr Beard that the DLR has been driverless since 1987 and the victoria line automated since 1967. I think the Paris Metro trains are unmanned, unlike the DLR and the Victoria line (which opened in 1968). |
Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trains to London
On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 09:47:21 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: wrote: On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 16:13:59 +0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: Matthew Beard, Transport Editor The Paris Metro has led the way in Europe, with the first driverless line opening in 1998, a second in 2012 and a third due by the end of the decade. Someone should point out to Mr Beard that the DLR has been driverless since 1987 and the victoria line automated since 1967. I think the Paris Metro trains are unmanned, unlike the DLR and the Victoria line (which opened in 1968). Thats true. Not sure I'd be happy about travelling on a completely unmanned train in our deep level tube tunnels especially in rush hour. -- Spud |
Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trains to London
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Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trains to London
wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 15:57:43 +0100 Recliner wrote: On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 11:08:04 +0000 (UTC), y wrote: On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 09:47:21 +0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: wrote: On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 16:13:59 +0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: Matthew Beard, Transport Editor The Paris Metro has led the way in Europe, with the first driverless line opening in 1998, a second in 2012 and a third due by the end of the decade. Someone should point out to Mr Beard that the DLR has been driverless since 1987 and the victoria line automated since 1967. I think the Paris Metro trains are unmanned, unlike the DLR and the Victoria line (which opened in 1968). Thats true. Not sure I'd be happy about travelling on a completely unmanned train in our deep level tube tunnels especially in rush hour. Which means, of course, that we stay under the power of the unions, whatever limited on-board role they may perform. The rail unions could be brought to heal just like the miners were if some of our current crop of politicos could find actually find a pair. The trouble is that it's hard to stockpile driver hours like you can coal. I think the government's plan is to let the unions annoy the population so much that there will be overwhelming support for legislation to ban strikes in essential services. |
Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trains to London
Recliner wrote:
The trouble is that it's hard to stockpile driver hours like you can coal. I think the government's plan is to let the unions annoy the population so much that there will be overwhelming support for legislation to ban strikes in essential services. Which sadly would still leave the problem of "blue flu"? ISTM the least bad option is to de-skill the job with automation so that, even if there is a need for a person on board*, it is a job which can be done by many more people after much less training. *I have never understood the obsession many seem to have with staff on trains. If the train can be moved by remote controllers, and help summoned by calls to them, ISTM the main thing lost is the driver's ability to deal with heart attacks, fights etc which start while a train is unable to move due to power loss etc. Just how often has that been a significant benefit in the past - leaving aside circumstances which wouldn't arise with modern communication systems and platform edge screen doors? Indeed, do our wonderful, highly trained, tube drivers carry defibrillators and know how to use them or are they waiting for a one-off payment and extra salary? -- Robin reply to address is (meant to be) valid |
Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trains to London
"Robin" wrote:
Recliner wrote: The trouble is that it's hard to stockpile driver hours like you can coal. I think the government's plan is to let the unions annoy the population so much that there will be overwhelming support for legislation to ban strikes in essential services. Which sadly would still leave the problem of "blue flu"? ISTM the least bad option is to de-skill the job with automation so that, even if there is a need for a person on board*, it is a job which can be done by many more people after much less training. *I have never understood the obsession many seem to have with staff on trains. If the train can be moved by remote controllers, and help summoned by calls to them, ISTM the main thing lost is the driver's ability to deal with heart attacks, fights etc which start while a train is unable to move due to power loss etc. Just how often has that been a significant benefit in the past - leaving aside circumstances which wouldn't arise with modern communication systems and platform edge screen doors? Indeed, do our wonderful, highly trained, tube drivers carry defibrillators and know how to use them or are they waiting for a one-off payment and extra salary? When BA was faced with regular cabin crew strikes, it reminded them how little training was needed for their jobs, and recruited many new flight attendants on cheaper contracts. They only needed a few weeks training. That put paid to the strikes, which were all about defending the perks of the senior cabin crew who were recruited by BOAC on civil service style contracts. The cabin crew have roughly the same safety role as train attendants may have in the future, plus they have to serve the food and drinks when not doing safety-related stuff, something that Tube attendants thankfully won't have to do. They do have glamour and foreign travel associated with their role, which is some compensation for low wages, but the new cabin crew earn less than half what Tube drivers do. For anyone who thinks that the Tube drivers' high pay, long holidays, regular strike days off during key sporting events, and short working hours sounds attractive, this is worth a read: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gene...Heres-why.html Doesn't it remind you of the route to becoming a steam engine driver in the old days? |
Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trains to London
On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 16:17:17 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: wrote: Which means, of course, that we stay under the power of the unions, whatever limited on-board role they may perform. The rail unions could be brought to heal just like the miners were if some of our current crop of politicos could find actually find a pair. The trouble is that it's hard to stockpile driver hours like you can coal. I think the government's plan is to let the unions annoy the population so much that there will be overwhelming support for legislation to ban strikes in essential services. I'm not sure I'd be happy with banning strikes altogether, but perhaps some sort of greater financial penalty if they do. So 1 days strike = 1 weeks lost pay or similar. Mind you , there is the Regan solution. Back in 80 or 81 the air traffic controllers went on strike in the US for the umpteenth time and Reagan had threatened to sack the lot if they did it again. They did do it again and he did sack them all with an added bonus of preventing being re-employed as controllers anywhere in the USA. If it can be done with something as critical as air traffic control I'm pretty sure it could be done with tube staff especially since their jobs don't even come close to the pressure and complexity of the former. I'm sure there are plenty of east europeans who'd be more than willing to do it. -- Spud |
Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trains to London
On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 16:52:51 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: For anyone who thinks that the Tube drivers' high pay, long holidays, regular strike days off during key sporting events, and short working hours sounds attractive, this is worth a read: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gene...og/11730449/Wa t-to-be-a-Tube-driver-Well-you-cant.-Heres-why.html Doesn't it remind you of the route to becoming a steam engine driver in the old days? I'm not sure whats less surprising - the fact that the drivers operate a closed shop or that LU gave into their demands for it. -- Spud |
Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trainsto London
On 2015-07-13, y wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 16:52:51 +0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: For anyone who thinks that the Tube drivers' high pay, long holidays, regular strike days off during key sporting events, and short working hours sounds attractive, this is worth a read: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gene...og/11730449/Wa t-to-be-a-Tube-driver-Well-you-cant.-Heres-why.html Doesn't it remind you of the route to becoming a steam engine driver in the old days? I'm not sure whats less surprising - the fact that the drivers operate a closed shop or that LU gave into their demands for it. Total failure to understand what unions are about or why they were started. And don't bother to say that they have gone too far (occasionally true but you can say that for any organisation) or that they are no longer necessary (which is absolute rubbish). Eric -- ms fnd in a lbry |
Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trains
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 18:46:28 +0100
Eric wrote: On 2015-07-13, y wrote: On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 16:52:51 +0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: For anyone who thinks that the Tube drivers' high pay, long holidays, regular strike days off during key sporting events, and short working hours sounds attractive, this is worth a read: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gene...blog/11730449/ a t-to-be-a-Tube-driver-Well-you-cant.-Heres-why.html Doesn't it remind you of the route to becoming a steam engine driver in the old days? I'm not sure whats less surprising - the fact that the drivers operate a closed shop or that LU gave into their demands for it. Total failure to understand what unions are about or why they were started. And don't bother to say that they have gone too far Whats that got to do with operating closed shops? (occasionally true but you can say that for any organisation) or that they are no longer necessary (which is absolute rubbish). Well I've never belonged to one and have done alright. You could argue that unions are for people too stupid to understand the details in a job contract. -- Spud |
Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trains
On 2015-07-14, y wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 18:46:28 +0100 Eric wrote: On 2015-07-13, y wrote: 8 -------- I'm not sure whats less surprising - the fact that the drivers operate a closed shop or that LU gave into their demands for it. Total failure to understand what unions are about or why they were started. And don't bother to say that they have gone too far Whats that got to do with operating closed shops? As I said, total failure to understand. (occasionally true but you can say that for any organisation) or that they are no longer necessary (which is absolute rubbish). Well I've never belonged to one and have done alright. You work in an industry where the "right skills" are a moving target and there are always shortages, especially of people who have the skills on paper _and_ enough common sense and experience to use them sensibly. The majority of my life has been spent as an IT contractor, and I've done alright too. However before I did that I did something else, and I was not only a union member but the site union rep. Now I have taken a salaried IT job as a fade-to-retirement, and I am once again a union member. You could argue that unions are for people too stupid to understand the details in a job contract. No, unions are for people who are (at least theoretically) interchangeable and easily replaceable, and therefore have no negotiating power individually. Understanding the contract, which doesn't exist in a legal sense anyway, is beside the point, since they won't change it just for you and the ability to shop around for a better one is extremely limited. And even the stupid deserve a fair rate of pay. Eric -- ms fnd in a lbry |
Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trains
On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 20:19:16 +0100
Eric wrote: On 2015-07-14, y wrote: On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 18:46:28 +0100 Eric wrote: On 2015-07-13, y wrote: 8 -------- I'm not sure whats less surprising - the fact that the drivers operate a closed shop or that LU gave into their demands for it. Total failure to understand what unions are about or why they were started. And don't bother to say that they have gone too far Whats that got to do with operating closed shops? As I said, total failure to understand. Well go on then, explain. Well I've never belonged to one and have done alright. You work in an industry where the "right skills" are a moving target and there are always shortages, especially of people who have the skills on paper _and_ enough common sense and experience to use them sensibly. The majority of my life has been spent as an IT contractor, and I've done alright too. However before I did that I did something else, and I was not only a union member but the site union rep. Now I have taken a salaried IT job as a fade-to-retirement, and I am once again a union member. Well I've been an IT contractor and a permie and at no time have I felt the need to join a union. I've walked away from a couple of jobs I didn't like and gone and got another instead of making a fuss and insisting that the company change the job spec and rules - which were clearly stated on the contract before I started - just to suit me. You could argue that unions are for people too stupid to understand the details in a job contract. No, unions are for people who are (at least theoretically) interchangeable and easily replaceable, and therefore have no negotiating power individually. Understanding the contract, which doesn't exist in a legal sense anyway, is beside the point, since they won't change it just Most people are ultimately replacable. And job contracts ARE legally binding and if either the employee or the employer breaks the contract in any way it can lead to dismissal or grounds to the the company to court. for you and the ability to shop around for a better one is extremely limited. And even the stupid deserve a fair rate of pay. The stupid are protected by job contracts and the law. Its not the 19th century any more. -- Spud |
Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trains
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 08:25:21AM +0000, y wrote:
Well I've never belonged to one and have done alright. You could argue that unions are for people too stupid to understand the details in a job contract. You could argue that you are a small goose named Cyril. It wouldn't make it true. -- David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david fdisk format reinstall, doo-dah, doo-dah; fdisk format reinstall, it's the Windows way |
Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trains
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 13:14:29 +0100
David Cantrell wrote: On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 08:25:21AM +0000, y wrote: Well I've never belonged to one and have done alright. You could argue that unions are for people too stupid to understand the details in a job contract. You could argue that you are a small goose named Cyril. It wouldn't make it true. What would it make it then? The law provides legal protection for employees. Unions haven't been necessary for about 50 years. They're a 19th century anachromism that the left are wedded to because they like the mass leverage they bring rather than the job protection. -- Spud |
Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trains
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 03:46:23PM +0000, y wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 13:14:29 +0100 David Cantrell wrote: On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 08:25:21AM +0000, y wrote: Well I've never belonged to one and have done alright. You could argue that unions are for people too stupid to understand the details in a job contract. You could argue that you are a small goose named Cyril. It wouldn't make it true. What would it make it then? It would be the ravings of a madman. HTH. The law provides legal protection for employees. If you can afford the law when you need it. One of the services that unions provide for their members is legal help. Effectively an insurance policy, paid for by their membership fees, that'll provide a specialist in employment law in the unlikely event that one is needed. Unions haven't been necessary for about 50 years. They're a 19th century anachromism that the left are wedded to because they like the mass leverage they bring rather than the job protection. You could hardly call me a lefty, but I'm a member of a union, and think that every employee should be. I've never gone on strike, and I've never permitted my union to negotiate my pay or working conditions for me. I have, however, used their legal services. I reckon that I get pretty good value for my tenner a month. -- David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic Erudite is when you make a classical allusion to a feather. Kinky is when you use the whole chicken. |
Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trains
"David Cantrell" wrote You could hardly call me a lefty, but I'm a member of a union, and think that every employee should be. I've never gone on strike, and I've never permitted my union to negotiate my pay or working conditions for me. I have, however, used their legal services. I reckon that I get pretty good value for my tenner a month. Have you priced legal insurances ? -- Mike D |
Paris Metro chiefs back introduction of driverless Tube trains
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 03:20:24PM +0100, Michael R N Dolbear wrote:
"David Cantrell" wrote You could hardly call me a lefty, but I'm a member of a union, and think that every employee should be. I've never gone on strike, and I've never permitted my union to negotiate my pay or working conditions for me. I have, however, used their legal services. I reckon that I get pretty good value for my tenner a month. Have you priced legal insurances ? I didn't get as far as pricing them, because all the ones I looked at didn't offer what I want. There's more to a union's legal services than getting an attack lawyer when your relationship with your employer goes south. I have used them to, for example, look over an employment contract, and to verify that my changes to an employment contract before I accepted a job correctly matched what I wanted and didn't leave any irritating loopholes. -- David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist You know you're getting old when you fancy the teenager's parent and ignore the teenager -- Paul M in uknot |
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