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Boris buses and their flat batteries
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...nsons-problems
This confirms the observation that the Boris buses seem to run noisily on diesel most of the time. It's a pity that the Grauniad has angled this as a political Wolmar-for-mayor story, though: whatever Boris's faults, technical problems with a battery pack can hardly be blamed on him. But I wonder why the Boris bus batteries are seemingly more troublesome than those in other hybrid buses? |
Boris buses and their flat batteries
In message
-septembe r.org, at 08:29:47 on Mon, 20 Jul 2015, Recliner remarked: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ries-london-bu ses-add-to-boris-johnsons-problems This confirms the observation that the Boris buses seem to run noisily on diesel most of the time. It's a pity that the Grauniad has angled this as a political Wolmar-for-mayor story, though: whatever Boris's faults, technical problems with a battery pack can hardly be blamed on him. But I wonder why the Boris bus batteries are seemingly more troublesome than those in other hybrid buses? I doubt it's the batteries themselves, but it's quite plausible the charging/discharging electronics wasn't quite right and this could have shortened the life of the batteries (both the life each day, and the number of days). -- Roland Perry |
Boris buses and their flat batteries
Roland Perry wrote:
In message -septembe r.org, at 08:29:47 on Mon, 20 Jul 2015, Recliner remarked: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ries-london-bu ses-add-to-boris-johnsons-problems This confirms the observation that the Boris buses seem to run noisily on diesel most of the time. It's a pity that the Grauniad has angled this as a political Wolmar-for-mayor story, though: whatever Boris's faults, technical problems with a battery pack can hardly be blamed on him. But I wonder why the Boris bus batteries are seemingly more troublesome than those in other hybrid buses? I doubt it's the batteries themselves, but it's quite plausible the charging/discharging electronics wasn't quite right and this could have shortened the life of the batteries (both the life each day, and the number of days). Or I wonder if the batteries/electronics overheat, like the passengers? Everything is squashed into quite a small volume under the rear stairs, and maybe the ventilation is inadequate. Maybe they just had a faulty component, which is what the story suggests: "The battery packs are being upgraded as soon as possible and within the warranty period, at no cost to TfL or the taxpayer.” I'm not sure what you mean by the battery "life each day," though. These batteries are continually charged and discharged, almost at every stop. They're not charged overnight and used all day. Even when they were brand-new, the buses didn't run for more than about five minutes without the noisy four-cylinder engine firing up. So the batteries are subjected to hundreds of charge/discharge cycles very day, which can't be good for them. |
Boris buses and their flat batteries
In message
-septem ber.org, at 09:13:08 on Mon, 20 Jul 2015, Recliner remarked: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ries-london-bu ses-add-to-boris-johnsons-problems This confirms the observation that the Boris buses seem to run noisily on diesel most of the time. It's a pity that the Grauniad has angled this as a political Wolmar-for-mayor story, though: whatever Boris's faults, technical problems with a battery pack can hardly be blamed on him. But I wonder why the Boris bus batteries are seemingly more troublesome than those in other hybrid buses? I doubt it's the batteries themselves, but it's quite plausible the charging/discharging electronics wasn't quite right and this could have shortened the life of the batteries (both the life each day, and the number of days). Or I wonder if the batteries/electronics overheat, like the passengers? Everything is squashed into quite a small volume under the rear stairs, and maybe the ventilation is inadequate. Maybe they just had a faulty component, which is what the story suggests: "The battery packs are being upgraded as soon as possible and within the warranty period, at no cost to TfL or the taxpayer.” Faulty design of component, rather than faulty manufacturing, I suspect. I'm not sure what you mean by the battery "life each day," though. The "half hour" (see below). These batteries are continually charged and discharged, almost at every stop. They're not charged overnight and used all day. They might start charging them en-route when they've reached some specific level - like 50% perhaps. It's got a 75kWH battery and a 130kW electric motor. So that's half an hour flat out - which is less than I'd have expected. Even when they were brand-new, the buses didn't run for more than about five minutes without the noisy four-cylinder engine firing up. That's been described as "something that's being worked on". So the batteries are subjected to hundreds of charge/discharge cycles very day, which can't be good for them. They aren't full charge/discharge cycles, and that degree of punishment should be factored into the overall design. -- Roland Perry |
Boris buses and their flat batteries
Roland Perry wrote:
In message -septem ber.org, at 09:13:08 on Mon, 20 Jul 2015, Recliner remarked: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ries-london-bu ses-add-to-boris-johnsons-problems This confirms the observation that the Boris buses seem to run noisily on diesel most of the time. It's a pity that the Grauniad has angled this as a political Wolmar-for-mayor story, though: whatever Boris's faults, technical problems with a battery pack can hardly be blamed on him. But I wonder why the Boris bus batteries are seemingly more troublesome than those in other hybrid buses? I doubt it's the batteries themselves, but it's quite plausible the charging/discharging electronics wasn't quite right and this could have shortened the life of the batteries (both the life each day, and the number of days). Or I wonder if the batteries/electronics overheat, like the passengers? Everything is squashed into quite a small volume under the rear stairs, and maybe the ventilation is inadequate. Maybe they just had a faulty component, which is what the story suggests: "The battery packs are being upgraded as soon as possible and within theThe battery packs are being upgraded as soon as possible and within the warranty period, at no cost to TfL or the taxpayer.” warranty period, at no cost to TfL or the taxpayer.” Faulty design of component, rather than faulty manufacturing, I suspect. Yes, I agree. I'm not sure what you mean by the battery "life each day," though. The "half hour" (see below). These batteries are continually charged and discharged, almost at every stop. They're not charged overnight and used all day. They might start charging them en-route when they've reached some specific level - like 50% perhaps. It's got a 75kWH battery and a 130kW electric motor. So that's half an hour flat out - which is less than I'd have expected. And the actual battery capacity after a few thousand cycles is probably much less. Even when they were brand-new, the buses didn't run for more than about five minutes without the noisy four-cylinder engine firing up. That's been described as "something that's being worked on". So the batteries are subjected to hundreds of charge/discharge cycles very day, which can't be good for them. They aren't full charge/discharge cycles, and that degree of punishment should be factored into the overall design. It should, but apparently wasn't. |
Boris buses and their flat batteries
On Mon, 20 Jul 2015 09:13:08 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: They're not charged overnight and used all day. Even when they were brand-new, the buses didn't run for more than about five minutes without the noisy four-cylinder engine firing up. So the batteries are subjected to Its not just the routemasters, they're all like that. Rather defeats the whole purpose of them. -- Spud |
Boris buses and their flat batteries
On Mon, 20 Jul 2015 21:25:34 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote: of that lack of testing. I fear we will keep on reaping the consequences for years to come - long after any warranty period has expired. And long after Boris's tenure as Mayor is just another footnote in political history. I don't see tweets and comments from people complaining about other bus types "smelling of ****" - this seems a rather unique NB4L trait. I wonder if there's a fault with the adblue system? I presume they use it. One thing I do think should be answered is whether the alleged sacking by Metroline of a bus driver who refused to drive NB4Ls on safety grounds happened or not. I notice nothing's been said about that. That's a pretty crucial issue given the Mayor's recent decision to extend confidential reporting (CIRAS) to London's bus operations. While I'm no fan of the things are can't really see how there could be an issue so severe that it would affect safety, unless the driver was claiming that the brakes don't work properly. -- Spud |
Boris buses and their flat batteries
On Tue, 21 Jul 2015 09:52:48 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote: The allegations include a) brake / handbrake problems. b) slow acceleration meaning risk of misjudging moves into traffic. c) the electrical system failing meaning loss of steering control - this has happened umpteen times. http://www.mayorwatch.co.uk/londoner...-con-that-is-t e-boris-bus/ I might be more inclined to believe what he said if he got some basic facts right. "The fact that they cannot operate on their electric motors because of battery failure" They're serial hybrids, the electric motors are the only things turning the wheels. The diesel engine is a generator. "Some buses disengage from gears" What gears? Does he mean it comes out of drive mode? “The most unreliable and poorly engineered bus that has ever been made” Obviously this guy has a short memory. When boris buses start spontainiously bursting into flames then perhaps he might have a point. Who wrote this - oh Mr Wolmar, a well known source of unbiased commentary. *cough* -- Spud |
Boris buses and their flat batteries
On 2015-07-20 20:25:34 +0000, Paul Corfield said:
I don't see tweets and comments from people complaining about other bus types "smelling of ****" - this seems a rather unique NB4L trait. A common trait of other buses prior to the installation of the forced-air ventilation coupled with opening windows. Er, oops. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
Boris buses and their flat batteries
On 2015-07-21 08:52:48 +0000, Paul Corfield said:
a) brake / handbrake problems. That is concerning. And odd, given that there's no need for the braking systems to be other than standard Wrightbus kit. Are other Wrightbus vehicles affected? b) slow acceleration meaning risk of misjudging moves into traffic. A professional driver needs to drive to the capability of their vehicle. Perhaps reduced acceleration will stop the passengers being thrown around by way of aggressive acceleration, often unnecessarily so. So this, while perhaps a design flaw, is not in and of itself dangerous. Professional drivers shouldn't "misjudge moves into traffic" whatever they are driving. It is their professional role not to. c) the electrical system failing meaning loss of steering control - this has happened umpteen times. *Loss* of steering control, or just loss of power-assist? I didn't think fly-by-wire steering was permissible, while it should be possible to pull the vehicle over safely (if heavily) to the kerb and stop if power-assist is lost. (a) is a concern if true, (b) and (c) are just inconveniences, which perhaps the driver is simply bored of. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
Boris buses and their flat batteries
On Tue, 21 Jul 2015 10:26:57 +0100
Neil Williams wrote: A professional driver needs to drive to the capability of their vehicle. Perhaps reduced acceleration will stop the passengers being A professional driver yes, but we're talking london bus drivers here. I'm not sure I'd class all of them as having a professional approach to the job. c) the electrical system failing meaning loss of steering control - this has happened umpteen times. *Loss* of steering control, or just loss of power-assist? I didn't Almost certainly the latter, though in such a large vehicle it will be almost impossible to turn the wheel when stationary if the power assist has died. -- Spud |
Boris buses and their flat batteries
wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jul 2015 10:26:57 +0100 Neil Williams wrote: A professional driver needs to drive to the capability of their vehicle. Perhaps reduced acceleration will stop the passengers being A professional driver yes, but we're talking london bus drivers here. I'm not sure I'd class all of them as having a professional approach to the job. c) the electrical system failing meaning loss of steering control - this has happened umpteen times. *Loss* of steering control, or just loss of power-assist? I didn't Almost certainly the latter, though in such a large vehicle it will be almost impossible to turn the wheel when stationary if the power assist has died. Yes, I agree. Some amount of power steering would be essential with a heavy bus. I'm guessing it has speed sensitive power steering, that should provide more assistance at low speeds, but is failing to do so. My car is like that, and sometimes if the battery is very low and only just capable of starting the car, you don't initially get that extra assistance. The car remains perfectly drivable, but steering at low speeds just needs a bit more effort. It seems like the brake assist computer doesn't boot properly if the battery is low; if your turn off and start again, everything goes back to normal. The problem never occurs if the battery is properly or even half charged, so the problem isn't easily repeatable: once you've been running for a few minutes, the problem doesn't occur. |
Boris buses and their flat batteries
wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jul 2015 09:52:48 +0100 Paul Corfield wrote: The allegations include a) brake / handbrake problems. b) slow acceleration meaning risk of misjudging moves into traffic. c) the electrical system failing meaning loss of steering control - this has happened umpteen times. http://www.mayorwatch.co.uk/londoner...-con-that-is-t e-boris-bus/ I might be more inclined to believe what he said if he got some basic facts right. "The fact that they cannot operate on their electric motors because of battery failure" They're serial hybrids, the electric motors are the only things turning the wheels. The diesel engine is a generator. "Some buses disengage from gears" What gears? Does he mean it comes out of drive mode? “The most unreliable and poorly engineered bus that has ever been made” Obviously this guy has a short memory. When boris buses start spontainiously bursting into flames then perhaps he might have a point. Who wrote this - oh Mr Wolmar, a well known source of unbiased commentary. *cough* Yup, it's all part of his mayoral campaign, and that document looks like it was put together by Unite. Wolmar is busy flying the red flag in the hope of being backed by local lefties. |
Boris buses and their flat batteries
On Tue, 21 Jul 2015 15:32:17 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: Yup, it's all part of his mayoral campaign, and that document looks like it was put together by Unite. Wolmar is busy flying the red flag in the hope of being backed by local lefties. Perhaps we'll see him and Comrade Corbyn doing an open top bus campaign tour around London. Wouldn't be a Boris Bus of course even if there was a cabriolet version. -- Spud |
Boris buses and their flat batteries
wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jul 2015 15:32:17 +0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: Yup, it's all part of his mayoral campaign, and that document looks like it was put together by Unite. Wolmar is busy flying the red flag in the hope of being backed by local lefties. Perhaps we'll see him and Comrade Corbyn doing an open top bus campaign tour around London. Wouldn't be a Boris Bus of course even if there was a cabriolet version. I think that bus has already been booked by Diane Abbott and Comrade Corbyn. Wolmar will have to cycle behind it. |
Boris buses and their flat batteries
Robin9 wrote:
y;149428 Wrote: On Tue, 21 Jul 2015 09:52:48 +0100 Paul Corfield wrote:- The allegations include a) brake / handbrake problems. b) slow acceleration meaning risk of misjudging moves into traffic. c) the electrical system failing meaning loss of steering control - this has happened umpteen times. http://tinyurl.com/oha9v7v e-boris-bus/- I might be more inclined to believe what he said if he got some basic facts right. "The fact that they cannot operate on their electric motors because of battery failure" They're serial hybrids, the electric motors are the only things turning the wheels. The diesel engine is a generator. "Some buses disengage from gears" What gears? Does he mean it comes out of drive mode? “The most unreliable and poorly engineered bus that has ever been made” Obviously this guy has a short memory. When boris buses start spontainiously bursting into flames then perhaps he might have a point. Who wrote this - oh Mr Wolmar, a well known source of unbiased commentary. *cough* -- Spud Mr. Wolmar was recently on Venessa Feltz's phone-in programme on BBC Radio London. He made a fool of himself and came across as a gormless bigot. For example, on the question of Council Housing (or whatever euphemism they're using this month) he maintained that the only reason houses were not being built in large numbers in London was the hostility of Tory controlled local authorities. When Venessa Feltz pointed ou that local authorities not controlled by the Tories were also not building houses he denied the assertion. When she reminded him that many Council Leaders had told her - and of course her "lovely listeners" - that the reason they were not building them was the "right-to-buy" legislation, he insisted that was not true! He was similarly bigoted on the subject of cars. Anyone who votes for such a mindless muppet deserves all they get. He's certainly very anti-car, so much so that he refuses to use them in his endless campaign to become Labour mayoral candidate. It's completely dominated his life for the last year, and it's made him more and more left wing as he tries to appeal to local constituency activists. I can't imagine what he has to offer them that the other candidates, all experienced London MPs, can't, but failing to do so probably makes him increasingly desperate and eccentric. It also means he has little time to keep up with his former specialist subject, transport. And, of course, next year, when he's no longer a would-be politician, he won't have a new railway book to promote. |
Boris buses and their flat batteries
On 21/07/2015 21:52, Recliner wrote:
[...] And, of course, next year, when he's no longer a would-be politician, he won't have a new railway book to promote. He might have a "I ran for the Mayoral nomination" book... |
Boris buses and their flat batteries
Mizter T wrote:
On 21/07/2015 21:52, Recliner wrote: [...] And, of course, next year, when he's no longer a would-be politician, he won't have a new railway book to promote. He might have a "I ran for the Mayoral nomination" book... I think that's the book he writes next year, to sell in 2017. |
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