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Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 09:08:49 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: I suspect that the costs of using a non-standard gauge come from all the non-standard parts and manufacturing, and 9.5 inches doesn't really seem worth the aggravation (Japanese services around Tokyo run perfectly happily on 3'6", after all). Yes, indeed. In any case, no metro system needs wider than standard gauge tracks. Narrow gauge, as in Japan, might be better, in fact, if the tracks have tight curves. Many Continental tram systems are metre gauge for that reason. In fact, I wonder why the DLR wasn't? A good question. Did it re-use any track on the former BR route it took over going up to Stratford? Or maybe it was cheaper to buy standard gauge kit. xposted to utl. -- Spud |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 09:08:49 +0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: I suspect that the costs of using a non-standard gauge come from all the non-standard parts and manufacturing, and 9.5 inches doesn't really seem worth the aggravation (Japanese services around Tokyo run perfectly happily on 3'6", after all). Yes, indeed. In any case, no metro system needs wider than standard gauge tracks. Narrow gauge, as in Japan, might be better, in fact, if the tracks have tight curves. Many Continental tram systems are metre gauge for that reason. In fact, I wonder why the DLR wasn't? A good question. Did it re-use any track on the former BR route it took over going up to Stratford? Or maybe it was cheaper to buy standard gauge kit. I don't think the original DLR took over any existing track, but the later Canning Town to Stratford section may have used some of the old NLL tracks between the new stations. But that wouldn't have affected the original decision to use standard rather than metre gauge. Given its twisty, highly graded route, and modest speeds, metre gauge tracks might well have been more appropriate. There are plenty of metre gauge railways and tramways in Europe and Asia, so standard kit should readily be available. |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsingthe Scots?
On 28/07/2015 16:41, Recliner wrote:
Given its twisty, highly graded route, and modest speeds, metre gauge tracks might well have been more appropriate. There are plenty of metre gauge railways and tramways in Europe and Asia, so standard kit should readily be available. Generally in the form of slimmed-down and lower-capacity "normal" vehicles. AIUI modern trams come in two standard-ish widths, 2.65 m and 2.3 m, though there are many exceptions on legacy lines which need something different. If you can get away with the lower capacity of smaller vehicles, do you need light rail in the first place? If your stock is going to be full-size, why bother with narrow gauge? -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
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Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 28/07/2015 16:41, Recliner wrote: Given its twisty, highly graded route, and modest speeds, metre gauge tracks might well have been more appropriate. There are plenty of metre gauge railways and tramways in Europe and Asia, so standard kit should readily be available. Generally in the form of slimmed-down and lower-capacity "normal" vehicles. AIUI modern trams come in two standard-ish widths, 2.65 m and 2.3 m, though there are many exceptions on legacy lines which need something different. If you can get away with the lower capacity of smaller vehicles, do you need light rail in the first place? If your stock is going to be full-size, why bother with narrow gauge? The DLR vehicles are 2.65m. Narrow gauge is better on lines with tight curves, like the DLR. |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
wrote:
In article , (Recliner) wrote: wrote: On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 09:08:49 +0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: I suspect that the costs of using a non-standard gauge come from all the non-standard parts and manufacturing, and 9.5 inches doesn't really seem worth the aggravation (Japanese services around Tokyo run perfectly happily on 3'6", after all). Yes, indeed. In any case, no metro system needs wider than standard gauge tracks. Narrow gauge, as in Japan, might be better, in fact, if the tracks have tight curves. Many Continental tram systems are metre gauge for that reason. In fact, I wonder why the DLR wasn't? A good question. Did it re-use any track on the former BR route it took over going up to Stratford? Or maybe it was cheaper to buy standard gauge kit. I don't think the original DLR took over any existing track, but the later Canning Town to Stratford section may have used some of the old NLL tracks between the new stations. But that wouldn't have affected the original decision to use standard rather than metre gauge. Given its twisty, highly graded route, and modest speeds, metre gauge tracks might well have been more appropriate. There are plenty of metre gauge railways and tramways in Europe and Asia, so standard kit should readily be available. There are no metre gauge railways of any significance in this country. The DLR uses lots of docklands abandoned railway viaducts so it was presumably thought to be simpler to stick to standard gauge which seems to handle the curves without problems. The tight curves aren't on the old railway alignments. They are on the all-new sections, or corner links between old alignments. Look for example at the complex of tracks at West India Quay or either side of South Quay. |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsingthe Scots?
On 28/07/2015 20:26, Recliner wrote:
Arthur Figgis wrote: On 28/07/2015 16:41, Recliner wrote: Given its twisty, highly graded route, and modest speeds, metre gauge tracks might well have been more appropriate. There are plenty of metre gauge railways and tramways in Europe and Asia, so standard kit should readily be available. Generally in the form of slimmed-down and lower-capacity "normal" vehicles. AIUI modern trams come in two standard-ish widths, 2.65 m and 2.3 m, though there are many exceptions on legacy lines which need something different. If you can get away with the lower capacity of smaller vehicles, do you need light rail in the first place? If your stock is going to be full-size, why bother with narrow gauge? The DLR vehicles are 2.65m. Narrow gauge is better on lines with tight curves, like the DLR. Define better... the DLR appears to work with standard gauge. IIRC the automatic line in Kuala Lumpur is off-the-shelf standard gauge, even though the main line network is metre. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 28/07/2015 20:26, Recliner wrote: Arthur Figgis wrote: On 28/07/2015 16:41, Recliner wrote: Given its twisty, highly graded route, and modest speeds, metre gauge tracks might well have been more appropriate. There are plenty of metre gauge railways and tramways in Europe and Asia, so standard kit should readily be available. Generally in the form of slimmed-down and lower-capacity "normal" vehicles. AIUI modern trams come in two standard-ish widths, 2.65 m and 2.3 m, though there are many exceptions on legacy lines which need something different. If you can get away with the lower capacity of smaller vehicles, do you need light rail in the first place? If your stock is going to be full-size, why bother with narrow gauge? The DLR vehicles are 2.65m. Narrow gauge is better on lines with tight curves, like the DLR. Define better... the DLR appears to work with standard gauge. Lots of squeals on the corners, though. And even tighter curves to get round the corners might have been possible with narrow gauge. |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 20:56:56 +0100, Arthur Figgis
wrote: On 28/07/2015 20:26, Recliner wrote: Arthur Figgis wrote: On 28/07/2015 16:41, Recliner wrote: Given its twisty, highly graded route, and modest speeds, metre gauge tracks might well have been more appropriate. There are plenty of metre gauge railways and tramways in Europe and Asia, so standard kit should readily be available. Generally in the form of slimmed-down and lower-capacity "normal" vehicles. AIUI modern trams come in two standard-ish widths, 2.65 m and 2.3 m, though there are many exceptions on legacy lines which need something different. If you can get away with the lower capacity of smaller vehicles, do you need light rail in the first place? If your stock is going to be full-size, why bother with narrow gauge? The DLR vehicles are 2.65m. Narrow gauge is better on lines with tight curves, like the DLR. Define better... the DLR appears to work with standard gauge. IIRC the automatic line in Kuala Lumpur is off-the-shelf standard gauge, even though the main line network is metre. By 'off-the-shelf' I presume you mean because it uses the linear-induction system developed by Ontario's Urban Transportation Development Corporation (technology now owned by Bombardier)? Vancouver's two SkyTrain lines are the same, and a couple of curves are pretty tight without squealing problems, with another acute curve to appear when the newest extension opens late next year. The conventional system used on the line to the airport/Richmond is 4' 8 1/2", and suffers from wild squealing from the Hyundai Rotem cars midway down the underground segment. |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
wrote:
In article , (Recliner) wrote: wrote: In article , (Recliner) wrote: wrote: On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 09:08:49 +0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: I suspect that the costs of using a non-standard gauge come from all the non-standard parts and manufacturing, and 9.5 inches doesn't really seem worth the aggravation (Japanese services around Tokyo run perfectly happily on 3'6", after all). Yes, indeed. In any case, no metro system needs wider than standard gauge tracks. Narrow gauge, as in Japan, might be better, in fact, if the tracks have tight curves. Many Continental tram systems are metre gauge for that reason. In fact, I wonder why the DLR wasn't? A good question. Did it re-use any track on the former BR route it took over going up to Stratford? Or maybe it was cheaper to buy standard gauge kit. I don't think the original DLR took over any existing track, but the later Canning Town to Stratford section may have used some of the old NLL tracks between the new stations. But that wouldn't have affected the original decision to use standard rather than metre gauge. Given its twisty, highly graded route, and modest speeds, metre gauge tracks might well have been more appropriate. There are plenty of metre gauge railways and tramways in Europe and Asia, so standard kit should readily be available. There are no metre gauge railways of any significance in this country. The DLR uses lots of docklands abandoned railway viaducts so it was presumably thought to be simpler to stick to standard gauge which seems to handle the curves without problems. The tight curves aren't on the old railway alignments. They are on the all-new sections, or corner links between old alignments. Look for example at the complex of tracks at West India Quay or either side of South Quay. Indeed they are but they work perfectly well with standard gauge so why introduce a narrow gauge not used elsewhere in this country? The DLR trains aren't built in the UK and aren't related to any UK systems. The DLR is, in effect, a European light railway that happens to be in London. It uses a third rail system that's unique in the UK, and was the first to use each of its signalling systems in the UK. It remains the only driverless network in the UK, and its vehicles never run on any tracks but their own. So why would it matter if it also had a different gauge? And what maximum speeds could be obtained on narrower gauge? I'm fairly sure it would be lower. Much higher than than the DLR's modest maximum speed of 40mph. DLR trains are essentially high-floor urban trams that don't go as fast as many trams, which typically have a 50mph max. |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
In message
-septemb er.org, Recliner wrote: A good question. Did it re-use any track on the former BR route it took over going up to Stratford? Or maybe it was cheaper to buy standard gauge kit. I don't think the original DLR took over any existing track, I thought Poplar to Bow took over the original track. But it might well have been ripped out and re-laid; that's not a major expense in the scale of things. Against that, the original DLR was done on the cheap, so perhaps not. In fact, it could have even re-used the LTSR tracks from Christian Street Junction to wherever the 4-track used to end, apart from the swerve on the Up line at Shadwell. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsingthe Scots?
On 29/07/2015 07:23, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In message -septemb er.org, Recliner wrote: A good question. Did it re-use any track on the former BR route it took over going up to Stratford? Or maybe it was cheaper to buy standard gauge kit. I don't think the original DLR took over any existing track, I thought Poplar to Bow took over the original track. But it might well have been ripped out and re-laid; that's not a major expense in the scale of things. Against that, the original DLR was done on the cheap, so perhaps not. In fact, it could have even re-used the LTSR tracks from Christian Street Junction to wherever the 4-track used to end, apart from the swerve on the Up line at Shadwell. According to the original DLR handbook the railway did take over some lengths of BR track, mainly that on the viaduct from just east of Fenchurch Street to Shadwell. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
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Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 29/07/2015 07:23, Clive D. W. Feather wrote: In message -septemb er.org, Recliner wrote: A good question. Did it re-use any track on the former BR route it took over going up to Stratford? Or maybe it was cheaper to buy standard gauge kit. I don't think the original DLR took over any existing track, I thought Poplar to Bow took over the original track. But it might well have been ripped out and re-laid; that's not a major expense in the scale of things. Against that, the original DLR was done on the cheap, so perhaps not. In fact, it could have even re-used the LTSR tracks from Christian Street Junction to wherever the 4-track used to end, apart from the swerve on the Up line at Shadwell. According to the original DLR handbook the railway did take over some lengths of BR track, mainly that on the viaduct from just east of Fenchurch Street to Shadwell. Perhaps that's the reason: the original DLR was built as cheaply as possible, and being able to reuse existing track may have saved more money than using an inherently cheaper narrow gauge. |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsingthe Scots?
On 29/07/2015 09:25, Recliner wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote: On 29/07/2015 07:23, Clive D. W. Feather wrote: In message -septemb er.org, Recliner wrote: A good question. Did it re-use any track on the former BR route it took over going up to Stratford? Or maybe it was cheaper to buy standard gauge kit. I don't think the original DLR took over any existing track, I thought Poplar to Bow took over the original track. But it might well have been ripped out and re-laid; that's not a major expense in the scale of things. Against that, the original DLR was done on the cheap, so perhaps not. In fact, it could have even re-used the LTSR tracks from Christian Street Junction to wherever the 4-track used to end, apart from the swerve on the Up line at Shadwell. According to the original DLR handbook the railway did take over some lengths of BR track, mainly that on the viaduct from just east of Fenchurch Street to Shadwell. Perhaps that's the reason: the original DLR was built as cheaply as possible, and being able to reuse existing track may have saved more money than using an inherently cheaper narrow gauge. Slightly off topic but if anyone is interested in metre gauge I can thoroughly recommend the railways of Corsica - I think you could do the entire network in a weekend by flying in Bastia on the Friday, doing the Bastia to Calvi line on the Saturday and then Calvi to Ajaccio on the Sunday before flying home. Lots of great curves, tunnels, viaducts, changes of elevation and so on. |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
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Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
In message , Someone Somewhere
wrote: Slightly off topic but if anyone is interested in metre gauge I can thoroughly recommend the railways of Corsica Speaking of which, can anyone advise on the railways (if any) of Sardinia? Particularly at the southern end. Anything particularly worth a ride if I can persuade SWMBO? -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
In article , y () wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 13:55:53 -0500 wrote: There are no metre gauge railways of any significance in this country. The DLR uses lots of docklands abandoned railway viaducts so it was presumably thought to be simpler to stick to standard gauge which seems to handle the curves without problems. The trains handle the curves but they really don't sound happy about it especially on the west india key to westferry curve. There's a huge amount of squealing and shuddering even at single digit speeds. I suspect its really on the limit of curve radius you can have with standard gauge track. Metre gauge trains aren't immune to this problem either. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote:
In message , Someone Somewhere wrote: Slightly off topic but if anyone is interested in metre gauge I can thoroughly recommend the railways of Corsica Speaking of which, can anyone advise on the railways (if any) of Sardinia? Particularly at the southern end. Anything particularly worth a ride if I can persuade SWMBO? Here's some pics I took last year on an RTC tour. Be warned, however, that the steam trains you see in these pics, and the more remote narrow gauge lines are running on borrowed time. The scheduled rail cars don't cover anything like the full network, and the vintage steam trains have to be specially chartered. The lines are living off EU subsidies for deprived areas as a way of promoting tourism. https://www.flickr.com/photos/reclin...7644394332828/ |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
wrote:
In article , y () wrote: On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 13:55:53 -0500 wrote: There are no metre gauge railways of any significance in this country. The DLR uses lots of docklands abandoned railway viaducts so it was presumably thought to be simpler to stick to standard gauge which seems to handle the curves without problems. The trains handle the curves but they really don't sound happy about it especially on the west india key to westferry curve. There's a huge amount of squealing and shuddering even at single digit speeds. I suspect its really on the limit of curve radius you can have with standard gauge track. Metre gauge trains aren't immune to this problem either. They can handle tighter curves than standard gauge. That's why most mountain railways are narrow gauge. |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 08:34:59 -0500
wrote: In article , y () wrote: On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 13:55:53 -0500 wrote: There are no metre gauge railways of any significance in this country. The DLR uses lots of docklands abandoned railway viaducts so it was presumably thought to be simpler to stick to standard gauge which seems to handle the curves without problems. The trains handle the curves but they really don't sound happy about it especially on the west india key to westferry curve. There's a huge amount of squealing and shuddering even at single digit speeds. I suspect its really on the limit of curve radius you can have with standard gauge track. Metre gauge trains aren't immune to this problem either. No, but the dragging effect of the outside wheel moving over the rail faster than its turning (and similarly the opposite for the inside wheel) is lessened because of the reduced distance between the rails. -- Spud |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 12:52:49 +0100
Recliner wrote: On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 08:18:45 +0000 (UTC), y wrote: On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 13:55:53 -0500 wrote: There are no metre gauge railways of any significance in this country. The DLR uses lots of docklands abandoned railway viaducts so it was presumably thought to be simpler to stick to standard gauge which seems to handle the curves without problems. The trains handle the curves but they really don't sound happy about it especially on the west india key to westferry curve. There's a huge amount of squealing and shuddering even at single digit speeds. I suspect its really on the limit of curve radius you can have with standard gauge track. I assume all that noise is a sign of excessive track and flange wear on the wheels. Don't know TBH. But I imagine it doesn't do the wheels or track any favours. -- Spud |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 12:52:49 +0100 Recliner wrote: On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 08:18:45 +0000 (UTC), y wrote: On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 13:55:53 -0500 wrote: There are no metre gauge railways of any significance in this country. The DLR uses lots of docklands abandoned railway viaducts so it was presumably thought to be simpler to stick to standard gauge which seems to handle the curves without problems. The trains handle the curves but they really don't sound happy about it especially on the west india key to westferry curve. There's a huge amount of squealing and shuddering even at single digit speeds. I suspect its really on the limit of curve radius you can have with standard gauge track. I assume all that noise is a sign of excessive track and flange wear on the wheels. Don't know TBH. But I imagine it doesn't do the wheels or track any favours. The DLR seems to make heavy use of its Beckton wheel lathe. It installed a new one recently, and this was the required spec: The new wheel lathe must be capable of turning at least 6 train axles in a 4 hour period and have a total capacity of no less than 1 650 train axles per annum http://www.sell2wales.gov.uk/search/...x?ID=NOV056317 In other words, it must be able to turn all six axles of one car in four hours, and each car has all its axles turned about once every eight months. That compares with about 54 months for LU trains, so DLR wheels wear at a very high rate. Also: All DLR stock has wheels which have a more angled profile than that on mainline trains, which is effective in dealing with the tight curves encountered on DLR routes. However, a downside to this innovation is that they are partly responsible for violent shaking as the train travels at higher speeds on the straight parts of the route. Another manifestation of the DLR's wheel geometry and tight rail curves is that this setup generates noise. This noise is amplified by the use of steel box torsion girders (e.g. Marsh Wall elevated road crossing adjacent to South Quay DLR Station). From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dock...ems_suf fered And, guess what, despite how new most of its track is, the DLR is already on to a track replacement cycle on its twisty sections: http://www.dlrlondon.co.uk/uploadedF...20FINAL(1).pdf |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsing the Scots?
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 15:32:39 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: encountered on DLR routes. However, a downside to this innovation is that they are partly responsible for violent shaking as the train travels at higher speeds on the straight parts of the route. I never did understand why they couldn't sort that. Presumably trams have the same wheel profile yet they don't tend to shudder and shake at higher speeds from my experience here and in france. And, guess what, despite how new most of its track is, the DLR is already on to a track replacement cycle on its twisty sections: http://www.dlrlondon.co.uk/uploadedF...s/Upcoming_Wor s_-_mobile/Closure_A5_Leaflet_8-9_June_2013%20FINAL(1).pdf Can't say I'm surprised. -- Spud |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsingthe Scots?
On 29/07/2015 14:34, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In message , Someone Somewhere wrote: Slightly off topic but if anyone is interested in metre gauge I can thoroughly recommend the railways of Corsica Speaking of which, can anyone advise on the railways (if any) of Sardinia? Particularly at the southern end. Anything particularly worth a ride if I can persuade SWMBO? Yes! The narrow gauge lines are well worth doing, not least in a "do them while they are still there" sense. I did Cagliari - Isili in a little railbus, and two of the routes from Sassari. The scenery can be quite wild, vaguely Yorkshire Dales-esque. The mainline network was standard Italian stock (though IIRC they've since got some Spanish units), though in a perhaps slightly "unItalian" landscape. The line up through the middle is scenic, and Sassari a nice place. There is a railway museum in the suburbs of Cagliari, accessible by tram on the converted railway. Top tip: don't go on a whim on a stormy weekend in March and book a room overlooking the sea which has shutters but no proper glazed windows between you and Barcelona. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Scotland - England: West side or east side? And who's advsingthe Scots?
On 29/07/2015 19:01, Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 29/07/2015 14:34, Clive D. W. Feather wrote: In message , Someone Somewhere wrote: Slightly off topic but if anyone is interested in metre gauge I can thoroughly recommend the railways of Corsica Speaking of which, can anyone advise on the railways (if any) of Sardinia? Particularly at the southern end. Anything particularly worth a ride if I can persuade SWMBO? Yes! The narrow gauge lines are well worth doing, not least in a "do them while they are still there" sense. I did Cagliari - Isili in a little railbus, and two of the routes from Sassari. The scenery can be quite wild, vaguely Yorkshire Dales-esque. The mainline network was standard Italian stock (though IIRC they've since got some Spanish units), though in a perhaps slightly "unItalian" landscape. The line up through the middle is scenic, and Sassari a nice place. There is a railway museum in the suburbs of Cagliari, accessible by tram on the converted railway. Top tip: don't go on a whim on a stormy weekend in March and book a room overlooking the sea which has shutters but no proper glazed windows between you and Barcelona. That sounds like experience speaking :-) -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. |
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