On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 1:31:25 AM UTC, Denis McMahon
wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 22:09:37 +0000, Richard J. wrote:

The ORR say that in 2013/14 New Southgate had a total of 637,320 entries
and exits. If New Southgate was an Underground station, that figure
would make it the 4th smallest passenger usage on the network. Arnos
Grove, half a mile away, had 4.71 million entries and exits in 2014.

My back of an envelope scribbling extrapolates 637,320 annual entries and
exits to 2500 max per weekday, so about 1200 in each of morning and
evening peak of 2 hours, or about 10 a minute in the peaks.


So, we have a project that is more ill thought out than HS2. Boris
Island is dead, so now he wants a bizarre Crossrail 2.

Do not misunderstand. There is a need for more Crossrails. But this
one does nothing well and a lot badly.

There is nothing especially wrong with running on to the Cheshunt
line. But, then there is the expensive tunnel to New Southgate. If
more service is needed to the New Southgate area, there are cheaper
and better ways to provide it. But first let's see how things improve
when Thameslink starts serving the GN suburbs.

Dalston, Angel and St Pancras look reasonable. BUT, then the line
heads for Victoria. Victoria already has a direct route toKX/St P.
But Waterloo does not. Why not follow the route of the WWI plan for
an express Northern Line pair to Waterloo?

Boris's new toy then follows a zigzag route to Wimbledon. Wimbledon
is already well served and cramped. Adding the entrances here for a
Crossrail station will be difficult. Moreover it adds little value.
Anyone heading from Wimbledon to Victoria has a choice of routes. One
can change at Clapham Junction, or use the District Line.

Why not continue to shadow the Northern Line with Stations at
Kennington, Clapham North, Balham, Tooting Broadway, and South
Wimbledon?

Borisrail then continues to Raynes Park. There is a logic to this
because several of the main SW suburban routes have converged there.
But Boris's route then runs onto them ALL. That begs the question: Why
retain the slow pair from Waterloo. How does TfL, et al, expect to
maintain the discipline of a rapid transit service with four branches?

No, from Colliers Wood Crossrail two should continue to Raynes Park
for interchange and then take over the pair towards Motspur Park. The
route could terminate at Chessington and Horsham. The later will
provide many valuable connections to, and from, the outer suburbs.

On 2015\10\31 09:34, e27002 aurora wrote:

Dalston, Angel and St Pancras look reasonable. BUT, then the line
heads for Victoria. Victoria already has a direct route toKX/St P.
But Waterloo does not. Why not follow the route of the WWI plan for
an express Northern Line pair to Waterloo?

Boris's new toy then follows a zigzag route to Wimbledon. Wimbledon
is already well served and cramped. Adding the entrances here for a
Crossrail station will be difficult. Moreover it adds little value.
Anyone heading from Wimbledon to Victoria has a choice of routes. One
can change at Clapham Junction, or use the District Line.

Why not continue to shadow the Northern Line with Stations at
Kennington, Clapham North, Balham, Tooting Broadway, and South
Wimbledon?

Borisrail then continues to Raynes Park. There is a logic to this
because several of the main SW suburban routes have converged there.
But Boris's route then runs onto them ALL. That begs the question: Why
retain the slow pair from Waterloo. How does TfL, et al, expect to
maintain the discipline of a rapid transit service with four branches?

No, from Colliers Wood Crossrail two should continue to Raynes Park
for interchange and then take over the pair towards Motspur Park. The
route could terminate at Chessington and Horsham. The later will
provide many valuable connections to, and from, the outer suburbs.


That sounds dear. I don't know why everybody wants to build underground
stations everywhere. They're dear!

By 2030 the Waterloo trains will probably all be electric or bi-mode. I
suggest a new twin-tunnel mainline from Hersham to Clapham Junction with
a pair of tunnelled platforms at Kingston, to replace Surbiton as the
principal station in the area. That would free up lots of room on the
surface lines through Wimbledon and Surbiton for more local trains which
could then go into the CR2 tunnel near Clapham Junction in approximately
the same place as the mainline tunnel ended.

On 2015\10\31 12:01, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2015\10\31 09:34, e27002 aurora wrote:

Dalston, Angel and St Pancras look reasonable. BUT, then the line
heads for Victoria. Victoria already has a direct route toKX/St P.
But Waterloo does not. Why not follow the route of the WWI plan for
an express Northern Line pair to Waterloo?

Boris's new toy then follows a zigzag route to Wimbledon. Wimbledon
is already well served and cramped. Adding the entrances here for a
Crossrail station will be difficult. Moreover it adds little value.
Anyone heading from Wimbledon to Victoria has a choice of routes. One
can change at Clapham Junction, or use the District Line.

Why not continue to shadow the Northern Line with Stations at
Kennington, Clapham North, Balham, Tooting Broadway, and South
Wimbledon?

Borisrail then continues to Raynes Park. There is a logic to this
because several of the main SW suburban routes have converged there.
But Boris's route then runs onto them ALL. That begs the question: Why
retain the slow pair from Waterloo. How does TfL, et al, expect to
maintain the discipline of a rapid transit service with four branches?

No, from Colliers Wood Crossrail two should continue to Raynes Park
for interchange and then take over the pair towards Motspur Park. The
route could terminate at Chessington and Horsham. The later will
provide many valuable connections to, and from, the outer suburbs.


That sounds dear. I don't know why everybody wants to build underground
stations everywhere. They're dear!

By 2030 the Waterloo trains will probably all be electric or bi-mode. I
suggest a new twin-tunnel mainline from Hersham to Clapham Junction with
a pair of tunnelled platforms at Kingston, to replace Surbiton as the
principal station in the area. That would free up lots of room on the
surface lines through Wimbledon and Surbiton for more local trains which
could then go into the CR2 tunnel near Clapham Junction in approximately
the same place as the mainline tunnel ended.

I forgot to say that the mainline would be under parkland for much of
the route and under the A3 for another chunk, all of which cheapens and
simplifies construction.

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 12:03:37 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2015\10\31 12:01, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2015\10\31 09:34, e27002 aurora wrote:

Dalston, Angel and St Pancras look reasonable. BUT, then the line
heads for Victoria. Victoria already has a direct route toKX/St P.
But Waterloo does not. Why not follow the route of the WWI plan for
an express Northern Line pair to Waterloo?

Boris's new toy then follows a zigzag route to Wimbledon. Wimbledon
is already well served and cramped. Adding the entrances here for a
Crossrail station will be difficult. Moreover it adds little value.
Anyone heading from Wimbledon to Victoria has a choice of routes. One
can change at Clapham Junction, or use the District Line.

Why not continue to shadow the Northern Line with Stations at
Kennington, Clapham North, Balham, Tooting Broadway, and South
Wimbledon?

Borisrail then continues to Raynes Park. There is a logic to this
because several of the main SW suburban routes have converged there.
But Boris's route then runs onto them ALL. That begs the question: Why
retain the slow pair from Waterloo. How does TfL, et al, expect to
maintain the discipline of a rapid transit service with four branches?

No, from Colliers Wood Crossrail two should continue to Raynes Park
for interchange and then take over the pair towards Motspur Park. The
route could terminate at Chessington and Horsham. The later will
provide many valuable connections to, and from, the outer suburbs.


That sounds dear. I don't know why everybody wants to build underground
stations everywhere. They're dear!

By 2030 the Waterloo trains will probably all be electric or bi-mode. I
suggest a new twin-tunnel mainline from Hersham to Clapham Junction with
a pair of tunnelled platforms at Kingston, to replace Surbiton as the
principal station in the area. That would free up lots of room on the
surface lines through Wimbledon and Surbiton for more local trains which
could then go into the CR2 tunnel near Clapham Junction in approximately
the same place as the mainline tunnel ended.

I forgot to say that the mainline would be under parkland for much of
the route and under the A3 for another chunk, all of which cheapens and
simplifies construction.

If the oil runs out you could put the railway on one side of the A3 as
the other side might be all that's needed for what's left of public
and goods road transport.

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 12:03:37 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2015\10\31 12:01, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2015\10\31 09:34, e27002 aurora wrote:

Dalston, Angel and St Pancras look reasonable. BUT, then the line
heads for Victoria. Victoria already has a direct route toKX/St P.
But Waterloo does not. Why not follow the route of the WWI plan for
an express Northern Line pair to Waterloo?

Boris's new toy then follows a zigzag route to Wimbledon. Wimbledon
is already well served and cramped. Adding the entrances here for a
Crossrail station will be difficult. Moreover it adds little value.
Anyone heading from Wimbledon to Victoria has a choice of routes. One
can change at Clapham Junction, or use the District Line.

Why not continue to shadow the Northern Line with Stations at
Kennington, Clapham North, Balham, Tooting Broadway, and South
Wimbledon?

Borisrail then continues to Raynes Park. There is a logic to this
because several of the main SW suburban routes have converged there.
But Boris's route then runs onto them ALL. That begs the question: Why
retain the slow pair from Waterloo. How does TfL, et al, expect to
maintain the discipline of a rapid transit service with four branches?

No, from Colliers Wood Crossrail two should continue to Raynes Park
for interchange and then take over the pair towards Motspur Park. The
route could terminate at Chessington and Horsham. The later will
provide many valuable connections to, and from, the outer suburbs.


That sounds dear. I don't know why everybody wants to build underground
stations everywhere. They're dear!

By 2030 the Waterloo trains will probably all be electric or bi-mode. I
suggest a new twin-tunnel mainline from Hersham to Clapham Junction with
a pair of tunnelled platforms at Kingston, to replace Surbiton as the
principal station in the area. That would free up lots of room on the
surface lines through Wimbledon and Surbiton for more local trains which
could then go into the CR2 tunnel near Clapham Junction in approximately
the same place as the mainline tunnel ended.

I forgot to say that the mainline would be under parkland for much of
the route and under the A3 for another chunk, all of which cheapens and
simplifies construction.

If the oil runs out you could put the railway on one side of the A3 as
the other side might be all that's needed for what's left of public
and goods road transport.

The oil isn't running out any time soon, but for pollution reasons, road
vehicles will probably switch to some other form of propulsion long before
it does. EVs are getting better quite quickly, and if they can be charged
using renewable energy, that will be a lot better than all the local
pollution from IC engines.

On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 00:02:08 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 12:03:37 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2015\10\31 12:01, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2015\10\31 09:34, e27002 aurora wrote:

Dalston, Angel and St Pancras look reasonable. BUT, then the line
heads for Victoria. Victoria already has a direct route toKX/St P.
But Waterloo does not. Why not follow the route of the WWI plan for
an express Northern Line pair to Waterloo?

Boris's new toy then follows a zigzag route to Wimbledon. Wimbledon
is already well served and cramped. Adding the entrances here for a
Crossrail station will be difficult. Moreover it adds little value.
Anyone heading from Wimbledon to Victoria has a choice of routes. One
can change at Clapham Junction, or use the District Line.

Why not continue to shadow the Northern Line with Stations at
Kennington, Clapham North, Balham, Tooting Broadway, and South
Wimbledon?

Borisrail then continues to Raynes Park. There is a logic to this
because several of the main SW suburban routes have converged there.
But Boris's route then runs onto them ALL. That begs the question: Why
retain the slow pair from Waterloo. How does TfL, et al, expect to
maintain the discipline of a rapid transit service with four branches?

No, from Colliers Wood Crossrail two should continue to Raynes Park
for interchange and then take over the pair towards Motspur Park. The
route could terminate at Chessington and Horsham. The later will
provide many valuable connections to, and from, the outer suburbs.


That sounds dear. I don't know why everybody wants to build underground
stations everywhere. They're dear!

By 2030 the Waterloo trains will probably all be electric or bi-mode. I
suggest a new twin-tunnel mainline from Hersham to Clapham Junction with
a pair of tunnelled platforms at Kingston, to replace Surbiton as the
principal station in the area. That would free up lots of room on the
surface lines through Wimbledon and Surbiton for more local trains which
could then go into the CR2 tunnel near Clapham Junction in approximately
the same place as the mainline tunnel ended.

I forgot to say that the mainline would be under parkland for much of
the route and under the A3 for another chunk, all of which cheapens and
simplifies construction.

If the oil runs out you could put the railway on one side of the A3 as
the other side might be all that's needed for what's left of public
and goods road transport.

The oil isn't running out any time soon,

Strange, three parties spent two years telling people in Scotland that
it was.

but for pollution reasons, road
vehicles will probably switch to some other form of propulsion long before
it does. EVs are getting better quite quickly, and if they can be charged
using renewable energy, that will be a lot better than all the local
pollution from IC engines.

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 12:01:38 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2015\10\31 09:34, e27002 aurora wrote:

Dalston, Angel and St Pancras look reasonable. BUT, then the line
heads for Victoria. Victoria already has a direct route toKX/St P.
But Waterloo does not. Why not follow the route of the WWI plan for
an express Northern Line pair to Waterloo?

Boris's new toy then follows a zigzag route to Wimbledon. Wimbledon
is already well served and cramped. Adding the entrances here for a
Crossrail station will be difficult. Moreover it adds little value.
Anyone heading from Wimbledon to Victoria has a choice of routes. One
can change at Clapham Junction, or use the District Line.

Why not continue to shadow the Northern Line with Stations at
Kennington, Clapham North, Balham, Tooting Broadway, and South
Wimbledon?

Borisrail then continues to Raynes Park. There is a logic to this
because several of the main SW suburban routes have converged there.
But Boris's route then runs onto them ALL. That begs the question: Why
retain the slow pair from Waterloo. How does TfL, et al, expect to
maintain the discipline of a rapid transit service with four branches?

No, from Colliers Wood Crossrail two should continue to Raynes Park
for interchange and then take over the pair towards Motspur Park. The
route could terminate at Chessington and Horsham. The later will
provide many valuable connections to, and from, the outer suburbs.


That sounds dear. I don't know why everybody wants to build underground
stations everywhere. They're dear!

Although unmeasured I suspect the amount of tunnelling is greater on
Borisrail than the simplified, more strategic version.

By 2030 the Waterloo trains will probably all be electric or bi-mode. I
suggest a new twin-tunnel mainline from Hersham to Clapham Junction with
a pair of tunnelled platforms at Kingston, to replace Surbiton as the
principal station in the area. That would free up lots of room on the
surface lines through Wimbledon and Surbiton for more local trains which
could then go into the CR2 tunnel near Clapham Junction in approximately
the same place as the mainline tunnel ended.

Now that really is expensive. Although in the long term London and
the Southeast will need more capacity, IMHO a simple incremental
approach is better. That way the use of public finds is spread over a
longer period. The travelling public sees steady improvement.

The Raynes Park station does not need to be subterranean. There may
be space to squeeze the surfacing tracks in in order to use the
existing branch platforms. Otherwise there is plenty of space between
the two running tracks of the branch after they leave the mainline and
before they resume the normal six foot.

On 2015\11\01 10:15, e27002 aurora wrote:
On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 12:01:38 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

By 2030 the Waterloo trains will probably all be electric or bi-mode. I
suggest a new twin-tunnel mainline from Hersham to Clapham Junction with
a pair of tunnelled platforms at Kingston, to replace Surbiton as the
principal station in the area. That would free up lots of room on the
surface lines through Wimbledon and Surbiton for more local trains which
could then go into the CR2 tunnel near Clapham Junction in approximately
the same place as the mainline tunnel ended.

Now that really is expensive.

Why? Tunnels are cheap, especially under parkland: it's underground
stations that are dear, isn't it? Actually, let's run the new mainline
from Esher to Clapham instead, thus avoiding two tunnels under the
Thames and bringing the cost down. Surely a 9 mile twin tunnel with a
pair of platforms under Kingston would be cheaper than a pair of six
mile tunnels with a two-platform station under Balham and a
four-platform station under Wimbledon? (ignoring all tunnels at and
north of Clapham Junction, which would be the same in either plan).
Crossrail2 would then have loads of room on the existing four tracks
through Wimbledon and Surbiton to do whatever it liked, and access to
the new depot at Weir Road would be simplified by having all of the
Crossrail2 trains running past on the adjacent surface railway.

I've come up with a name for Crossrail2... BendSinisterRail, or just
SinisterRail for short.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bend_(..._sinister. 22

On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 10:09:45 AM UTC, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2015\10\30 23:28, Robin9 wrote:

I note that there seems to be no provision to create an interchange
with the Barking/Gospel Oak service even though the suggested route
pretty well passes under South Tottenham station. I assume whoever
created this plan is aware that the Overground service is growing fast
but needs to provide more opportunities to change to other routes?

The Seven Sisters station will have "A new southern ticket hall and
entrance onto the High Road/Ermine Road.. A dedicated link between South
Tottenham and the new southern ticket hall".

But at Tottenham Hale it seems that there will be no interchange with
the Goblin, even though a 250m platform would stretch from the current
station to the Goblin line, if they built it south of the road instead
of north.

This is TfL folly. This project has been cobbled together. We need
responsibly operated LTPB for the Home Counties. The "Mayer of (the
Region of) London malarkey is a nonsense.

I had presumed that the new line would be the fast line built to the
east with platforms only at Tottenham Hale, Cheshunt and Broxbourne, and
that the existing line would become the dedicated Crossrail 2 line. But
https://www.london.gov.uk/moderngov/...on%20FINAL.pdf
shows that CR2 will have the middle tracks, so the existing southbound
platforms will become island platforms for CR2, with the existing
northbound platforms abandoned on what will be the new fast northbound.
Tottenham Hale will have only one new platform built to the east, so
building it south of the road probably isn't entirely practical.

BTW, Crossrail 2 is a bit of a mouthful. Can we call it Happyrail? Maybe
the Overground should be Noughtrail?

In its present form call it Borisrail? Boris's Folly?

On Sun, 01 Nov 2015 10:26:24 +0000, e27002 aurora
wrote:

On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 10:09:45 AM UTC, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2015\10\30 23:28, Robin9 wrote:

I note that there seems to be no provision to create an interchange
with the Barking/Gospel Oak service even though the suggested route
pretty well passes under South Tottenham station. I assume whoever
created this plan is aware that the Overground service is growing fast
but needs to provide more opportunities to change to other routes?

The Seven Sisters station will have "A new southern ticket hall and
entrance onto the High Road/Ermine Road.. A dedicated link between South
Tottenham and the new southern ticket hall".

But at Tottenham Hale it seems that there will be no interchange with
the Goblin, even though a 250m platform would stretch from the current
station to the Goblin line, if they built it south of the road instead
of north.

That would in practice be re/building two new stations not just
extending a couple of platforms. Also, the distance from Tottenham
Hale to the bridge over GOBLIN is about twice that given above so
there would still be a couple of hundred yards for interchanging
passengers to walk between platforms extended south from Tottenham
Hale to a new station on GOBLIN.

This is TfL folly. This project has been cobbled together. We need
responsibly operated LTPB for the Home Counties. The "Mayer of (the
Region of) London malarkey is a nonsense.

I had presumed that the new line would be the fast line built to the
east with platforms only at Tottenham Hale, Cheshunt and Broxbourne, and
that the existing line would become the dedicated Crossrail 2 line. But
https://www.london.gov.uk/moderngov/...on%20FINAL.pdf
shows that CR2 will have the middle tracks, so the existing southbound
platforms will become island platforms for CR2, with the existing
northbound platforms abandoned on what will be the new fast northbound.
Tottenham Hale will have only one new platform built to the east, so
building it south of the road probably isn't entirely practical.

BTW, Crossrail 2 is a bit of a mouthful. Can we call it Happyrail? Maybe
the Overground should be Noughtrail?

In its present form call it Borisrail? Boris's Folly?