Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 13:50:29 on Sat, 30 Jul 2016,
" remarked:

Are they ever going to figure out air conditioning for Tube trains?

Pump the heat out of the trains into the tunnels and stations. What could
possibly go wrong?
--
Roland Perry

Eurotunnel manage something like that in the Channel Tunnel, and they don't
have stations every few hundred yards where they can remove the excess heat
generated.

--
DAS

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

Graham Murray wrote:
Roland Perry writes:

In message , at 13:50:29 on Sat, 30 Jul
2016, " remarked:

Are they ever going to figure out air conditioning for Tube trains?

Pump the heat out of the trains into the tunnels and stations. What
could possibly go wrong?

And equip alternate stations with powerful air conditioners and
extractor fans, creating a cooling airflow along the tunnels.

Some of that is already in place. Ventilation has been significantly
improved in many stations, and I think some use heat exchangers to cool the
air using pumped ground water.

As for the trains, the NTfL is intended to incorporate saloon cooling, as
well as emitting less heat in the first place. See page 24 in
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/ntfl-feasibility-report.pdf

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On 30/07/2016 20:50, D A Stocks wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 13:50:29 on Sat, 30 Jul
2016, " remarked:

Are they ever going to figure out air conditioning for Tube trains?

Pump the heat out of the trains into the tunnels and stations. What
could possibly go wrong?
--
Roland Perry

Eurotunnel manage something like that in the Channel Tunnel, and they
don't have stations every few hundred yards where they can remove the
excess heat generated.

--
DAS

But, the holes that the trains run through are vastly larger than tube
tunnels - and they have the service tunnel as well. Much more scope for
cooling if needed!

Colin

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 13:19:28 +0100, Colin Reeves
wrote:

On 30/07/2016 20:50, D A Stocks wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 13:50:29 on Sat, 30 Jul
2016, " remarked:

Are they ever going to figure out air conditioning for Tube trains?

Pump the heat out of the trains into the tunnels and stations. What
could possibly go wrong?
--
Roland Perry

Eurotunnel manage something like that in the Channel Tunnel, and they
don't have stations every few hundred yards where they can remove the
excess heat generated.

--
DAS

But, the holes that the trains run through are vastly larger than tube
tunnels - and they have the service tunnel as well. Much more scope for
cooling if needed!

There are doors to the service tunnel and it is at higher pressure in
case of fire so it doesn't really play a part in heat removal. There
are air shafts linking the two running tunnels and there are cold
water pipes in each tunnel to provide cooling.

The other difference between the Channel Tunnel and the tube is there
are no stations so limited braking and acceleration to generate heat.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On 2016\07\31 18:25, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 13:19:28 +0100, Colin Reeves
wrote:

On 30/07/2016 20:50, D A Stocks wrote:

Eurotunnel manage something like that in the Channel Tunnel, and they
don't have stations every few hundred yards where they can remove the
excess heat generated.

But, the holes that the trains run through are vastly larger than tube
tunnels - and they have the service tunnel as well. Much more scope for
cooling if needed!

There are doors to the service tunnel and it is at higher pressure in
case of fire so it doesn't really play a part in heat removal. There
are air shafts linking the two running tunnels and there are cold
water pipes in each tunnel to provide cooling.

Are the pipes supposed to transfer heat to the rock around the tunnel or
out the ends of the tunnel? I can't imagine the latter working very well
in a 50km tunnel.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On 31/07/16 18:25, wrote:
There are doors to the service tunnel and it is at higher pressure in
case of fire so it doesn't really play a part in heat removal. There
are air shafts linking the two running tunnels and there are cold
water pipes in each tunnel to provide cooling.

The other difference between the Channel Tunnel and the tube is there
are no stations so limited braking and acceleration to generate heat.
But the trains have to be powered towards the tunnel exits as there is
an upward gradient.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

In message , Basil Jet
writes
On 2016\07\31 18:25, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 13:19:28 +0100, Colin Reeves
wrote:

On 30/07/2016 20:50, D A Stocks wrote:

Eurotunnel manage something like that in the Channel Tunnel, and they
don't have stations every few hundred yards where they can remove the
excess heat generated.

But, the holes that the trains run through are vastly larger than tube
tunnels - and they have the service tunnel as well. Much more scope for
cooling if needed!

There are doors to the service tunnel and it is at higher pressure in
case of fire so it doesn't really play a part in heat removal. There
are air shafts linking the two running tunnels and there are cold
water pipes in each tunnel to provide cooling.

Are the pipes supposed to transfer heat to the rock around the tunnel
or out the ends of the tunnel? I can't imagine the latter working very
well in a 50km tunnel.

Wasn't the need for an upgraded cooling system one of the major reasons
for the cost over-run and delayed opening of the tunnel?

http://batisseurs-tunnel.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/1-Le-Projet-Tunnel-sous-La-Manche_C1.pdf
says

Cooling system: compensates heat from air friction generated by trains,
and heat produced by engines or electrical equipments. It is based on a
closed circuit chilled water, and includes 2 cooling plants, total
40 MW, located at Sangatte and Shakespeare Cliff, supplying cold water
(4 degree C, 220 l/s) through 200 km of pipes of diameters 400 and
320 mm.

There's more in
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...epage&q=channe
l%20tunnel%20cooling%20system:MW&f=false
but it's a pdf image of an article so difficult to copy and paste.
--
Goalie of the Century

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 19:58:59 +0100, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2016\07\31 18:25, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 13:19:28 +0100, Colin Reeves
wrote:

On 30/07/2016 20:50, D A Stocks wrote:

Eurotunnel manage something like that in the Channel Tunnel, and they
don't have stations every few hundred yards where they can remove the
excess heat generated.

But, the holes that the trains run through are vastly larger than tube
tunnels - and they have the service tunnel as well. Much more scope for
cooling if needed!

There are doors to the service tunnel and it is at higher pressure in
case of fire so it doesn't really play a part in heat removal. There
are air shafts linking the two running tunnels and there are cold
water pipes in each tunnel to provide cooling.

Are the pipes supposed to transfer heat to the rock around the tunnel or
out the ends of the tunnel? I can't imagine the latter working very well
in a 50km tunnel.

Out of the tunnel, there's a cooling plant at each end. I guess it's
configured as 25 km out and return rather than all the way through.
The plants supply water at 4 C, no idea of the return temperature.

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On 31/07/16 20:07, Martin Coffee wrote:
On 31/07/16 18:25, wrote:
The other difference between the Channel Tunnel and the tube is there
are no stations so limited braking and acceleration to generate heat.
But the trains have to be powered towards the tunnel exits as there is
an upward gradient.

And therefore correspondingly reduced power on the downward gradient at the
entrances.

Roger

Crossrail Elizabeth Line trainset unveiled
 

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 08:50:00PM +0100, D A Stocks wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
Pump the heat out of the trains into the tunnels and stations. What could
possibly go wrong?
Eurotunnel manage something like that in the Channel Tunnel, and they don't
have stations every few hundred yards where they can remove the excess heat
generated.

Yeah, and that means that they don't have to worry about the stations
being uncomfortably hot.

--
header FROM_DAVID_CANTRELL From =~ /david.cantrell/i
describe FROM_DAVID_CANTRELL Message is from David Cantrell
score FROM_DAVID_CANTRELL 15.72 # This figure from experimentation