Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
Or did I get the wrong end of the stick? Some brand new 66 plate single
deckers have appeared on the W9 and they're plain old diesel. -- Spud |
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
On Thursday, 9 February 2017 09:25:55 UTC, wrote:
Or did I get the wrong end of the stick? Some brand new 66 plate single deckers have appeared on the W9 and they're plain old diesel. -- Spud Err new DD buses in *Central London* have to be hybrids. Single decks have to zero emission in Zone 1. Some other routes further out have gained them but there's no consistent approach. The new buses on the W9 are to euro6 standard so are low emission. The Mayor's policy re the ULEZ means there will be more hybrid double deckers bought new with a massive programme of retrofitting existing fleet vehicles to bring them to either euro6 or euro6 equivalent. There are simply far too many buses with at least 7-10 years service life left for them all to be booted out of the fleet and replaced with new vehicles. There are also two other huge issues - there needs to be an enormous increase in electricity generation if London is to have a lot of electric buses with overnight charging. There is also a development gap in the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and even fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't think that's very healthy. There are some Optare electric buses but their reliability seems dubious. Single deck hybrids have broadly failed in London - several fleets have had short service lives and then been scrapped prematurely. This poses a big problem for TfL hence the current reliance on buying euro6 spec diesel single decks. It will be interesting to see if the bus manufacturers can produce reliable and affordable hybrid / electric single decks in the range of sizes that London's network needs. -- Paul C via Google |
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
On 21.02.2017 8:05 PM, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thursday, 9 February 2017 09:25:55 UTC, wrote: Or did I get the wrong end of the stick? Some brand new 66 plate single deckers have appeared on the W9 and they're plain old diesel. -- Spud Err new DD buses in *Central London* have to be hybrids. Single decks have to zero emission in Zone 1. Some other routes further out have gained them but there's no consistent approach. The new buses on the W9 are to euro6 standard so are low emission. The Mayor's policy re the ULEZ means there will be more hybrid double deckers bought new with a massive programme of retrofitting existing fleet vehicles to bring them to either euro6 or euro6 equivalent. There are simply far too many buses with at least 7-10 years service life left for them all to be booted out of the fleet and replaced with new vehicles. There are also two other huge issues - there needs to be an enormous increase in electricity generation if London is to have a lot of electric buses with overnight charging. There is also a development gap in the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and even fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't think that's very healthy. There are some Optare electric buses but their reliability seems dubious. Single deck hybrids have broadly failed in London - several fleets have had short service lives and then been scrapped prematurely. This poses a big problem for TfL hence the current reliance on buying euro6 spec diesel single decks. It will be interesting to see if the bus manufacturers can produce reliable and affordable hybrid / electric single decks in the range of sizes that London's network needs. It remains a mystery to me why London spends a fortune on hybrid and battery powered buses (complete with the inefficiency of adding a load of weight in the form of decidedly environmentally unfriendly batteries to every bus) to address a problem that in a sane nation would be solved with trolleybuses. |
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
On Tuesday, 21 February 2017 19:07:06 UTC, Clank wrote:
On 21.02.2017 8:05 PM, Paul Corfield wrote: On Thursday, 9 February 2017 09:25:55 UTC, wrote: Or did I get the wrong end of the stick? Some brand new 66 plate single deckers have appeared on the W9 and they're plain old diesel. -- Spud Err new DD buses in *Central London* have to be hybrids. Single decks have to zero emission in Zone 1. Some other routes further out have gained them but there's no consistent approach. The new buses on the W9 are to euro6 standard so are low emission. The Mayor's policy re the ULEZ means there will be more hybrid double deckers bought new with a massive programme of retrofitting existing fleet vehicles to bring them to either euro6 or euro6 equivalent. There are simply far too many buses with at least 7-10 years service life left for them all to be booted out of the fleet and replaced with new vehicles. There are also two other huge issues - there needs to be an enormous increase in electricity generation if London is to have a lot of electric buses with overnight charging. There is also a development gap in the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and even fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't think that's very healthy. There are some Optare electric buses but their reliability seems dubious. Single deck hybrids have broadly failed in London - several fleets have had short service lives and then been scrapped prematurely. This poses a big problem for TfL hence the current reliance on buying euro6 spec diesel single decks. It will be interesting to see if the bus manufacturers can produce reliable and affordable hybrid / electric single decks in the range of sizes that London's network needs. It remains a mystery to me why London spends a fortune on hybrid and battery powered buses (complete with the inefficiency of adding a load of weight in the form of decidedly environmentally unfriendly batteries to every bus) to address a problem that in a sane nation would be solved with trolleybuses. Well yes but I suspect the prejudices of the Cities of London, Westminster and Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea are as strong now as they were back in the 30s. Can't wires fixed to our lovely buildings - heaven forfend! -- Paul C via Google |
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
|
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
|
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800 (PST)
Paul Corfield wrote: the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and ev= en fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on= producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't t= European manufacturers caught napping. They only have themselves to blame. Though I suppose given the prevalence of trolleybuses in Europe the battery bus market probably isn't huge over there. -- Spud |
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:08:55 -0800 (PST)
Paul Corfield wrote: On Tuesday, 21 February 2017 19:07:06 UTC, Clank wrote: It remains a mystery to me why London spends a fortune on hybrid and batt= ery powered buses (complete with the inefficiency of adding a load of weight= in the form of decidedly environmentally unfriendly batteries to every bus)= to address a problem that in a sane nation would be solved with trolleybuse= s. Well yes but I suspect the prejudices of the Cities of London, Westminster = and Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea are as strong now as they were = back in the 30s. Can't wires fixed to our lovely buildings - heaven forfen= d! Thats probably got a lot to do with it. I can't think of any other reason as to why London doesn't install them other than nimbyism though ironically westminster doesn't mind having garish xmas decorations strung up between the buildings on oxford and regent street on huge wires for 2 months of the year. -- Spud |
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 01:17:34 +0000
Basil Jet wrote: On 2017\02\22 00:36, wrote: They have a choice, wires or choke to death. Simple Wires look like crap. What's wrong with hydrogen buses? Supply and storage. Though there is one hydrogen bus route in london that runs through southwark. Can't remember the number. -- Spud |
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
wrote in message ... On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800 (PST) Paul Corfield wrote: the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and ev= en fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on= producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't t= European manufacturers caught napping. They only have themselves to blame. Though I suppose given the prevalence of trolleybuses in Europe prevalence ? I can thing of a few places but only a very few certainly nowhere near enough to make it a dominant factor for suppliers |
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
|
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
On 22.02.2017 12:30 PM, tim... wrote:
wrote in message ... On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800 (PST) Paul Corfield wrote: the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and ev= en fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on= producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't t= European manufacturers caught napping. They only have themselves to blame. Though I suppose given the prevalence of trolleybuses in Europe prevalence ? I can thing of a few places but only a very few certainly nowhere near enough to make it a dominant factor for suppliers I can't think of a city I visit regularly that doesn't have them, to be honest. |
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
On 22.02.2017 3:10 PM, Clank wrote:
On 22.02.2017 12:30 PM, tim... wrote: wrote in message ... On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800 (PST) Paul Corfield wrote: the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and ev= en fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on= producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't t= European manufacturers caught napping. They only have themselves to blame. Though I suppose given the prevalence of trolleybuses in Europe prevalence ? I can thing of a few places but only a very few certainly nowhere near enough to make it a dominant factor for suppliers I can't think of a city I visit regularly that doesn't have them, to be honest. (Although I do accept that the cities I visit regularly are representative of absolutely nothing ;-). But I do regularly visit a good half dozen cities that all have trolleybuses (as well as living in one.)) |
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
|
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
|
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
On Wednesday, 22 February 2017 11:12:21 UTC, Neil Williams wrote:
On 2017-02-22 09:48:49 +0000, d said: Wires look like crap. What's wrong with hydrogen buses? Supply and storage. Though there is one hydrogen bus route in london that runs through southwark. Can't remember the number. RV1, which has always been rather a test bed for TfL. Wires don't necessarily "look like crap", in any case. Decorative poles can be used to enhance the look. There was an RV1 broken down on the Aldwych this morning, completely blocking half of the road. Central London is constantly dug up and rebuilt with many bus route diversions. A trolleybus wouldn't be able to divert along an unwired road. They're also a nuisance when the pickup arm gets disconnected from the wires. |
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
"Clank" wrote in message ... On 22.02.2017 12:30 PM, tim... wrote: wrote in message ... On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800 (PST) Paul Corfield wrote: the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and ev= en fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on= producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't t= European manufacturers caught napping. They only have themselves to blame. Though I suppose given the prevalence of trolleybuses in Europe prevalence ? I can thing of a few places but only a very few certainly nowhere near enough to make it a dominant factor for suppliers I can't think of a city I visit regularly that doesn't have them, to be honest. I recall you live in Romania (or have I got you mixed up with some else) Hardly a representative sample |
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
On 23.02.2017 2:51 PM, tim... wrote:
"Clank" wrote in message ... On 22.02.2017 12:30 PM, tim... wrote: wrote in message ... On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800 (PST) Paul Corfield wrote: the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and ev= en fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on= producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't t= European manufacturers caught napping. They only have themselves to blame. Though I suppose given the prevalence of trolleybuses in Europe prevalence ? I can thing of a few places but only a very few certainly nowhere near enough to make it a dominant factor for suppliers I can't think of a city I visit regularly that doesn't have them, to be honest. I recall you live in Romania (or have I got you mixed up with some else) Hardly a representative sample I'm not sure how where I live affects whether or not it's a representative sample (clue: this year alone I've visited I think 7 cities in 7 countries other than Romania, across 3 continents. Of those 7, one (Moscow) has, I believe, the largest trolleybus system in the world, I gather, and at least two others have systems.) However, you're right, my sample is no more representative than, say, yours would be. Which you'd know I'd already stated if you'd read my follow-up. |
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
On 2017\02\23 12:11, Mark wrote:
There was an RV1 broken down on the Aldwych this morning, completely blocking half of the road. "Oh the humanity" ;-) Central London is constantly dug up and rebuilt with many bus route diversions. A trolleybus wouldn't be able to divert along an unwired road. .... unless it had a back-up battery or small diesel tank allowing a mile or two off the wires, which would also remove the need to put countless wires and junctions in the garage that were only used once a day. How's the battery bus with charging pad in Walthamstow getting on? |
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
On 2017-02-23 12:11:31 +0000, Mark said:
Central London is constantly dug up and rebuilt with many bus route diversions. A trolleybus wouldn't be able to divert along an unwired road. Many of them have a small generator or battery for precisely that purpose. They're also a nuisance when the pickup arm gets disconnected from the wires. It's not hard to put it back on using the ropes at the back. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the @ to reply. |
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
|
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
|
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
On 2017\02\23 20:27, d wrote:
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:06:42 -0600 wrote: Which trolleybus systems have automated systems which restore booms after dewirements? I've never heard of that and can't imagine how it might work thinking of dewirements I observed in London and later in Brazil. Given the state of image recognition software these days I image having a camera that can spot the wires and then align the booms up with them would be entirely possible. Or just keep trying blind until the power comes back on. It wouldn't take so long or be needed so often to be worth putting in extra intelligence. Does any city put Regent-Street-style Christmas decorations over tram/trolley wires? |
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
On 23.02.2017 11:08 PM, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2017\02\23 20:27, d wrote: On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:06:42 -0600 wrote: Which trolleybus systems have automated systems which restore booms after dewirements? I've never heard of that and can't imagine how it might work thinking of dewirements I observed in London and later in Brazil. Given the state of image recognition software these days I image having a camera that can spot the wires and then align the booms up with them would be entirely possible. Or just keep trying blind until the power comes back on. It wouldn't take so long or be needed so often to be worth putting in extra intelligence. Does any city put Regent-Street-style Christmas decorations over tram/trolley wires? Pretty sure that's a yes. Here in Buc the adage 'less is more' is never applied to Christmas lights, and they're strung over more or less every major street (they make Regent Street look like a set of Argos LED tree lights) - and we have both trams and trolleybuses. L'viv also has both trams and trolleybuses and has lights strung across the streets at Christmas, if I recall correctly. Moscow goes for lights in a big way (albeit more in honour of New Year than Christmas,) although in my observations mostly around pedestrianised streets and squares rather than across the road as such. Next year I'll take a closer look and report back ))) |
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
Basil Jet wrote:
On 2017\02\23 20:27, d wrote: On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:06:42 -0600 wrote: Which trolleybus systems have automated systems which restore booms after dewirements? I've never heard of that and can't imagine how it might work thinking of dewirements I observed in London and later in Brazil. Given the state of image recognition software these days I image having a camera that can spot the wires and then align the booms up with them would be entirely possible. Or just keep trying blind until the power comes back on. It wouldn't take so long or be needed so often to be worth putting in extra intelligence. Does any city put Regent-Street-style Christmas decorations over tram/trolley wires? Perhaps not as elaborate as Regent St, suspended Christmas lights above Bahnhofstrasse are a feature of the Zürich decorations, and Bahnhofstrasse has pretty intensive tram service along its length. https://newinzurich.com/2014/12/chri...-hours-zurich/ Robin |
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