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Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
From Anne Maningas' blog:
http://www.version3point1.co.uk/blog...a-for-the-soul " [...] the other day I went to speak to The Boss Man about the possibility of handing in my notice, as I now have an Escape Plan. Boss Man was understandably quite excited that I’d been offered a better job elsewhere, but perhaps that may be something to do with the fact that he is looking to retire – and because it’s quite clear to everyone that The Job is going down the pan, and that people should really have either a Backup Plan or an Escape Plan. In fact, it’s the Boss Man that has been nagging me these last 3-4 years about making sure I have an Escape Plan. " -- jhk |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
On Friday, April 7, 2017 at 2:36:30 PM UTC+1, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote:
From Anne Maningas' blog: http://www.version3point1.co.uk/blog...a-for-the-soul " [...] the other day I went to speak to The Boss Man about the possibility of handing in my notice, as I now have an Escape Plan. Boss Man was understandably quite excited that I’d been offered a better job elsewhere, but perhaps that may be something to do with the fact that he is looking to retire – and because it’s quite clear to everyone that The Job is going down the pan, and that people should really have either a Backup Plan or an Escape Plan. In fact, it’s the Boss Man that has been nagging me these last 3-4 years about making sure I have an Escape Plan. " -- jhk Is there within all that verbiage an explanation of how and why the job is going down the pan? |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
wrote in message ... Is there within all that verbiage an explanation of how and why the job is going down the pan? Take for example the recent train shortages and restricted running on the Piccadilly Line. My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually by refacing the effected wheels on lathes. Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the first place. The first the travelling public knew about any of this were stories of drivers refusing to take out trains. Which immediately put the drivers in a bad light - they were simply being difficult - as with all their actions. If it's not about money then 'its all politically motivated etc. etc. Whereas in fact drivers should never find themselves in the position where they're having to refuse take out trains as a direct result of slipshod maintenance. As its their neck which will be on the line if anything goes wrong. Clearly they were correct in their refusal in this case, and for outsiders there's no real way of knowing how many of their other concerns are equally justified. As their public representatives, union officials etc are either very poor communicators or are denied sufficient opportunities to put over their case. Basically in such a situation when its impossible to have any confidence ether in the management of the organisation for whom you work or in the ability your representatives to put over your case to the public the job is indeed going down the pan. michael adams |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
wrote in message ... On Friday, April 7, 2017 at 2:36:30 PM UTC+1, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote: From Anne Maningas' blog: http://www.version3point1.co.uk/blog...a-for-the-soul " [...] the other day I went to speak to The Boss Man about the possibility of handing in my notice, as I now have an Escape Plan. Boss Man was understandably quite excited that I’d been offered a better job elsewhere, but perhaps that may be something to do with the fact that he is looking to retire – and because it’s quite clear to everyone that The Job is going down the pan, and that people should really have either a Backup Plan or an Escape Plan. In fact, it’s the Boss Man that has been nagging me these last 3-4 years about making sure I have an Escape Plan. " -- jhk Is there within all that verbiage an explanation of how and why the job is going down the pan? or even any claim that they're a tube driver |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
On 2017\04\08 13:41, michael adams wrote:
Whereas in fact drivers should never find themselves in the position where they're having to refuse take out trains as a direct result of slipshod maintenance. As its their neck which will be on the line if anything goes wrong. That sounds like you're suggesting they'll be fired or disciplined if a fault develops, when it's more that they will have a really horrific day if a door opens unexpectedly and a few people fall off a moving tube train. (Brake faults obviously do put the drivers neck on the line in a literal sense.) |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 13:48:59 +0100, "tim..."
wrote: http://www.version3point1.co.uk/blog...a-for-the-soul Is there within all that verbiage an explanation of how and why the job is going down the pan? or even any claim that they're a tube driver http://www.version3point1.co.uk/anne "is a subterranean train driver instructor" Also says she is Vice Chairperson of ASLEF, Neasden Branch, Distirct 8. http://blog.flickr.net/en/2013/06/15...-3-1-maningas/ "At daytime, Anne has made one of her dreams turn into reality and is driving trains for the world’s most famous public transport network: The London Underground." -- jhk |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 13:41:52 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote: wrote in message ... Is there within all that verbiage an explanation of how and why the job is going down the pan? Take for example the recent train shortages and restricted running on the Piccadilly Line. My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually by refacing the effected wheels on lathes. Not eventually, but as soon as possible. But the capacity of the wheel lathe is limited, and it can't deal with a huge number of flat spots overnight. Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the first place. The first the travelling public knew about any of this were stories of drivers refusing to take out trains. No, the trains were taken out of service because of severe wheels flats. Nobody disputes that they needed to be taken out of service. Which immediately put the drivers in a bad light - they were simply being difficult - as with all their actions. If it's not about money then 'its all politically motivated etc. etc. No, the wheel flats didn't put the drivers in a bad light. Whereas in fact drivers should never find themselves in the position where they're having to refuse take out trains as a direct result of slipshod maintenance. As its their neck which will be on the line if anything goes wrong. Clearly they were correct in their refusal in this case, and for outsiders there's no real way of knowing how many of their other concerns are equally justified. As their public representatives, union officials etc are either very poor communicators or are denied sufficient opportunities to put over their case. Basically in such a situation when its impossible to have any confidence ether in the management of the organisation for whom you work or in the ability your representatives to put over your case to the public the job is indeed going down the pan. I don't think the drivers were refusing to drive trains with wheel flats. That was a different issue. They have variously complained of door and brake problems, and you've confused two completely different episodes. The wheel flats were not caused by lack of maintenance. They were caused by drivers locking the brakes on slippery track, causing the wheels to slide along the track, which creates a flat spot. That's a combination of a possible lack of drivers' skills and LU's failure to use the RAT frequently enough after Storm Angus brought down a lot of leaves in a short period. If the trains had been newer, they'd have had WSP (Wheel Slide Protection), which would have reduced the incidence of flats. They would also have had wheels that were easier to swap in the depot. And if they were older, they'd have had tread brakes. So the 1973 stock trains are particularly vulnerable to wheel flats, and they happen to run on a fairly leafy line. See: http://www.londonreconnections.com/2016/wear-and-lathing-problem-with-the-piccadilly-lines-trains/ |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
"Basil Jet" wrote in message ... On 2017\04\08 13:41, michael adams wrote: Whereas in fact drivers should never find themselves in the position where they're having to refuse take out trains as a direct result of slipshod maintenance. As its their neck which will be on the line if anything goes wrong. That sounds like you're suggesting they'll be fired or disciplined if a fault develops, The finger will point at them until such time as the evidence indicates otherwise. Which might take days or weeks. The general public without the requisite technical knowledge are probably more likely as first at least to attribute any such occurance to operator or driver error. As that's something everyone can understand, Wereas the systems they're operating are supposedly designed not to fail. Same as with these wheel flats. As a member of the travelling public I've not a got a clue whether there are any safety implications in driving with wheel flats. Again I can't really believe that drivers weren't reporting this problem, before all of a sudden it became necessary for drivers to actually refuse to take out trains and for the decision to be made to take large numbers of trains out of service . There's plenty in the news about drivers being disciplined or dismissed for various offences. I've yet to read anywhere of a single member of the LT management or Board (if such still exists) being dismissed as a result of their decision to cut back on wheel maintainence and inspections on the Picaddilly Line. when it's more that they will have a really horrific day if a door opens unexpectedly and a few people fall off a moving tube train. How many people other than his fellow drivers will accept that the door opened "unexpectedly" for any other reason than that the driver somehow opened it himself by accident ? michael adams ... |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 14:46:03 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote: "Basil Jet" wrote in message ... On 2017\04\08 13:41, michael adams wrote: Whereas in fact drivers should never find themselves in the position where they're having to refuse take out trains as a direct result of slipshod maintenance. As its their neck which will be on the line if anything goes wrong. That sounds like you're suggesting they'll be fired or disciplined if a fault develops, The finger will point at them until such time as the evidence indicates otherwise. Which might take days or weeks. The general public without the requisite technical knowledge are probably more likely as first at least to attribute any such occurance to operator or driver error. As that's something everyone can understand, Wereas the systems they're operating are supposedly designed not to fail. Same as with these wheel flats. As a member of the travelling public I've not a got a clue whether there are any safety implications in driving with wheel flats. Again I can't really believe that drivers weren't reporting this problem, before all of a sudden it became necessary for drivers to actually refuse to take out trains and for the decision to be made to take large numbers of trains out of service . Drivers would certainly report wheel flats if they became aware of them, but a flat somewhere in the middle of the train may not be audible in the cab. So a member of station staff or even a passenger may report a bad one. That's a fault that is easy to check, and it's part of the driver's job if s/he becomes aware of one. If it's a bad flat, the train will be withdrawn from service. The problem arises with rare, intermittent faults that are hard to reproduce (such as the doors that allegedly opened spontaneously between stations). There's plenty in the news about drivers being disciplined or dismissed for various offences. I've yet to read anywhere of a single member of the LT management or Board (if such still exists) being dismissed as a result of their decision to cut back on wheel maintainence and inspections on the Picaddilly Line. That wasn't what caused the wheel flats. There hadn't been any cutbacks on wheel maintenance or inspections. when it's more that they will have a really horrific day if a door opens unexpectedly and a few people fall off a moving tube train. How many people other than his fellow drivers will accept that the door opened "unexpectedly" for any other reason than that the driver somehow opened it himself by accident ? There's no way a driver could open a single passenger door while the train was on the move, so no-one would blame him if it happened. The question was whether the reports of such door openings were spurious. |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
"Recliner" wrote in message ... The wheel flats were not caused by lack of maintenance. They were caused by drivers locking the brakes on slippery track, causing the wheels to slide along the track, which creates a flat spot. That's a combination of a possible lack of drivers' skills and LU's failure to use the RAT frequently enough after Storm Angus brought down a lot of leaves in a short period. How is LU's failure to use the RAT frequently enough to keep the track clear of leaves, not evidence of a lack of maintenance ? Given that this number of flats and trains being taken out of service had not previously resulted from drivers locking their brakes on slippery track, this can't be the result of a lack of drivers skills as such. It's surely more a case of the drivers not having been trained to drive their trains in situations where the tracks are covered in wet leaves. Possibly as a result of a decision not to run the RAT often enough, or simply as the result of a breakdown of some kind. So that's a clear failure of management on two counts. First a failure to run the RAT often enough in this particular instance. And second a failure to implement a training programme allowing for the possibility that for some reason the line might be covered in wet leaves or similar making it exceptionally slippery. michael adams .... |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
"Recliner" wrote in message ... On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 14:46:03 +0100, "michael adams" wrote: "Basil Jet" wrote in message ... when it's more that they will have a really horrific day if a door opens unexpectedly and a few people fall off a moving tube train. How many people other than his fellow drivers will accept that the door opened "unexpectedly" for any other reason than that the driver somehow opened it himself by accident ? There's no way a driver could open a single passenger door while the train was on the move, so no-one would blame him if it happened. You may well know that, and his fellow drivers may well know that, but do the general public ? If B J's example is allowed as a real possibility, is it realistic to suppose that LU would immediately own up to real possibility that their trains are at fault, without first holding some sort of internal enquiry ? The question was whether the reports of such door openings were spurious. Apparently there were five such reports, the latest Jan 16th one at least involving a light in the cab indicating a door was open. Quite where the spurious element comes in, drivers suffering from hallucinations, deliberately lying, or faulty indicator lights in the cabs I'm not sure. I rather wish B J hadn't raised this as an example as now I'm rather intrigued to know how this issue was resolved. If at all. michael adams .... |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
michael adams wrote:
"Recliner" wrote in message ... The wheel flats were not caused by lack of maintenance. They were caused by drivers locking the brakes on slippery track, causing the wheels to slide along the track, which creates a flat spot. That's a combination of a possible lack of drivers' skills and LU's failure to use the RAT frequently enough after Storm Angus brought down a lot of leaves in a short period. How is LU's failure to use the RAT frequently enough to keep the track clear of leaves, not evidence of a lack of maintenance ? You were saying that the train maintenance was being skimped, which is not the case. LU was at fault for not realising that a big storm when most of the leaves were still on the trees would cause an unusually high incidence of leaves on the line, requiring more frequent RAT runs for the next few days. BTW, where do you think the extra RATs that are compatible with the line would come from? Given that this number of flats and trains being taken out of service had not previously resulted from drivers locking their brakes on slippery track, this can't be the result of a lack of drivers skills as such. There were more new drivers than usual, plus perhaps some of the existing ones were out of practice at the beginning of autumn with driving on slippery rails? It's surely more a case of the drivers not having been trained to drive their trains in situations where the tracks are covered in wet leaves. Possibly as a result of a decision not to run the RAT often enough, or simply as the result of a breakdown of some kind. Don't forget Angus. So that's a clear failure of management on two counts. First a failure to run the RAT often enough in this particular instance. And second a failure to implement a training programme allowing for the possibility that for some reason the line might be covered in wet leaves or similar making it exceptionally slippery. OK, you win, every problem is by definition caused by evil, incompetent management, and the drivers are all perfect human beings, incapable of any human frailty. All of the occasions when they take industrial action are completely justified, and the unions are there purely to look after the safety of passengers. |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
I've always wondered... do the wheel lathes merely subtract metal, so a wheel with a three millimetre dent comes out losing three millimetres of radius, or do they pour some liquid metal on the dent, wait for it to cool and then lathe it down to the same radius as the rest of the wheel? |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
michael adams wrote:
"Recliner" wrote in message ... On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 14:46:03 +0100, "michael adams" wrote: "Basil Jet" wrote in message ... when it's more that they will have a really horrific day if a door opens unexpectedly and a few people fall off a moving tube train. How many people other than his fellow drivers will accept that the door opened "unexpectedly" for any other reason than that the driver somehow opened it himself by accident ? There's no way a driver could open a single passenger door while the train was on the move, so no-one would blame him if it happened. You may well know that, and his fellow drivers may well know that, but do the general public ? If B J's example is allowed as a real possibility, is it realistic to suppose that LU would immediately own up to real possibility that their trains are at fault, without first holding some sort of internal enquiry ? The question was whether the reports of such door openings were spurious. Apparently there were five such reports, the latest Jan 16th one at least involving a light in the cab indicating a door was open. Quite where the spurious element comes in, drivers suffering from hallucinations, deliberately lying, or faulty indicator lights in the cabs I'm not sure. I rather wish B J hadn't raised this as an example as now I'm rather intrigued to know how this issue was resolved. If at all. Have you actually looked at the video this one? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35337580 The door opens just as the train comes to a stop, which is perfectly normal on that line -- the drivers normally do open the doors before the train comes to a complete stop, which is fine. But the report says this happened as the train approached Heathrow terminal 4, and that's certainly not where that passenger video was shot (for one thing, the doors open on the right at T4). So I'm guessing that the BBC just used a random clip showing perfectly normal door operation and thought this was the fault that had been reported. The actual door problem appears to have been acknowledged, investigated and fixed. It was apparently a fault in a single door engine, and no-one blamed the driver. But the union still used it as an excuse for industrial action. |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
Basil Jet wrote:
I've always wondered... do the wheel lathes merely subtract metal, so a wheel with a three millimetre dent comes out losing three millimetres of radius, or do they pour some liquid metal on the dent, wait for it to cool and then lathe it down to the same radius as the rest of the wheel? I'm pretty sure they just skim material off. You couldn't add an alloy with the right characteristics. It would also damage the wheel's heat treatment if you poured liquid steel on to it. Incidentally, it's a flat, not a dent. In effect, a section of the circular profile has been planed off when the locked wheel slid along the track. |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
On 08.04.2017 3:48 PM, tim... wrote:
wrote in message ... On Friday, April 7, 2017 at 2:36:30 PM UTC+1, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote: From Anne Maningas' blog: http://www.version3point1.co.uk/blog...a-for-the-soul " [...] the other day I went to speak to The Boss Man about the possibility of handing in my notice, as I now have an Escape Plan. Boss Man was understandably quite excited that I’d been offered a better job elsewhere, but perhaps that may be something to do with the fact that he is looking to retire – and because it’s quite clear to everyone that The Job is going down the pan, and that people should really have either a Backup Plan or an Escape Plan. In fact, it’s the Boss Man that has been nagging me these last 3-4 years about making sure I have an Escape Plan. " -- jhk Is there within all that verbiage an explanation of how and why the job is going down the pan? or even any claim that they're a tube driver If anyone even made a cursory attempt to read it, you'd know that they were a tube driver who'd also had the misfortune to experience someone jumping in front of their train recently which was at least a part of their reasoning for revaluating things. I'm sure that's not why they feel the job is going down the pan, but it doubtless does colour their perspective of the desirability of the role. A deal of sympathy is deserved. (I'm not sure I know anyone* in any job who has not at some time or another complained that they work for idiots, it's all going to pot, etc. etc. etc... And that's without the added stress of someone using you in their suicide attempt.) * I include the self employed ;-) |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
On 08.04.17 16:21, Recliner wrote:
Basil Jet wrote: I've always wondered... do the wheel lathes merely subtract metal, so a wheel with a three millimetre dent comes out losing three millimetres of radius, or do they pour some liquid metal on the dent, wait for it to cool and then lathe it down to the same radius as the rest of the wheel? I'm pretty sure they just skim material off. You couldn't add an alloy with the right characteristics. It would also damage the wheel's heat treatment if you poured liquid steel on to it. Where are they going to get the liquid steel as they do not have an EAF or a reheater nearby? Plus, it would indeed damage the existing wheel. |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
In article ,
(Recliner) wrote: On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 13:41:52 +0100, "michael adams" wrote: wrote in message ... Is there within all that verbiage an explanation of how and why the job is going down the pan? Take for example the recent train shortages and restricted running on the Piccadilly Line. My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually by refacing the effected wheels on lathes. Not eventually, but as soon as possible. But the capacity of the wheel lathe is limited, and it can't deal with a huge number of flat spots overnight. Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the first place. The first the travelling public knew about any of this were stories of drivers refusing to take out trains. No, the trains were taken out of service because of severe wheels flats. Nobody disputes that they needed to be taken out of service. Which immediately put the drivers in a bad light - they were simply being difficult - as with all their actions. If it's not about money then 'its all politically motivated etc. etc. No, the wheel flats didn't put the drivers in a bad light. Whereas in fact drivers should never find themselves in the position where they're having to refuse take out trains as a direct result of slipshod maintenance. As its their neck which will be on the line if anything goes wrong. Clearly they were correct in their refusal in this case, and for outsiders there's no real way of knowing how many of their other concerns are equally justified. As their public representatives, union officials etc are either very poor communicators or are denied sufficient opportunities to put over their case. Basically in such a situation when its impossible to have any confidence ether in the management of the organisation for whom you work or in the ability your representatives to put over your case to the public the job is indeed going down the pan. I don't think the drivers were refusing to drive trains with wheel flats. That was a different issue. They have variously complained of door and brake problems, and you've confused two completely different episodes. The wheel flats were not caused by lack of maintenance. They were caused by drivers locking the brakes on slippery track, causing the wheels to slide along the track, which creates a flat spot. That's a combination of a possible lack of drivers' skills and LU's failure to use the RAT frequently enough after Storm Angus brought down a lot of leaves in a short period. If the trains had been newer, they'd have had WSP (Wheel Slide Protection), which would have reduced the incidence of flats. They would also have had wheels that were easier to swap in the depot. And if they were older, they'd have had tread brakes. So the 1973 stock trains are particularly vulnerable to wheel flats, and they happen to run on a fairly leafy line. See: http://www.londonreconnections.com/2...em-with-the-pi ccadilly-lines-trains/ That article doesn't identify the reason for not having the portable wheel lathe last year. The answer is that Greater Anglia got in first and were very grateful to have it to cut their wheel flats problem last autumn. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
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Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
In message , at
13:41:52 on Sat, 8 Apr 2017, michael adams remarked: My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually by refacing the effected wheels on lathes. Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the first place. If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a combination of medium term weather conditions plus one of the big storms) the only way to prevent the wheel flats would be to stop running the trains. And passengers already get cross when trains are scheduled to run slower in leaf-fall season. Having got the wheel flats, they literally can't be fixed overnight. -- Roland Perry |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
In message , at
15:17:50 on Sat, 8 Apr 2017, michael adams remarked: The wheel flats were not caused by lack of maintenance. They were caused by drivers locking the brakes on slippery track, causing the wheels to slide along the track, which creates a flat spot. That's a combination of a possible lack of drivers' skills and LU's failure to use the RAT frequently enough after Storm Angus brought down a lot of leaves in a short period. How is LU's failure to use the RAT frequently enough to keep the track clear of leaves, not evidence of a lack of maintenance ? Because in the case last year, the leaves fell pretty much all in one go as the result on one storm. -- Roland Perry |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
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Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
"Recliner" wrote in message ... Apparently there were five such reports, the latest Jan 16th one at least involving a light in the cab indicating a door was open. Quite where the spurious element comes in, drivers suffering from hallucinations, deliberately lying, or faulty indicator lights in the cabs I'm not sure. I rather wish B J hadn't raised this as an example as now I'm rather intrigued to know how this issue was resolved. If at all. Have you actually looked at the video this one? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35337580 What exactly would have been the point of my having watched a video which you yourself along with others suspect is simply a random clip used by the BBC showing normal door operation ? michael adams .... |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 13:41:52 on Sat, 8 Apr 2017, michael adams remarked: My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually by refacing the effected wheels on lathes. Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the first place. If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a combination of medium term weather conditions plus one of the big storms) the only way to prevent the wheel flats would be to stop running the trains. Or how about taking the first two or three scheduled trains out of service, in both directions on the Uxbridge line where most of the problems appear to arise, and run the RAT up and down instead between Acton Town and Uxbridge ? michael adams .... And passengers already get cross when trains are scheduled to run slower in leaf-fall season. Having got the wheel flats, they literally can't be fixed overnight. -- Roland Perry |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
"Recliner" wrote in message ... You may well know that, and his fellow drivers may well know that, but do the general public ? If B J's example is allowed as a real possibility, is it realistic to suppose that LU would immediately own up to real possibility that their trains are at fault, without first holding some sort of internal enquiry ? The question was whether the reports of such door openings were spurious. The actual door problem appears to have been acknowledged, investigated and fixed. It was apparently a fault in a single door engine, and no-one blamed the driver. To repeat "The question was whether the reports of such door openings were spurious". In other words, when supposedly trusted employees of LT, trusted sufficiently to be able to drive trains at least., report a problem with doors, "a question" immediately arises as to whether they're simply telling lies or not. And then it turns out that "apparently" the drivers weren't telling lies or making things up after all. That's what you're saying in effect, is it not ? But the union still used it as an excuse for industrial action. The union didn't use it as an "excuse" for anything. Although possibly they were justifiably disappointed that the first recourse of LT management whenever drivers report a problem who's effects aren't manifestly apparent, is to suggest that the drivers are lying or making things up. Although as I've already said, and in answer to your diatribe in your other post the problem is not that the drivers are always in the right and the management always in the wrong, but even in those cases where they are in the right they're inadequately represented such that their point is not put across. If they employed PR smoothies to represent them in the media as do LU - then possibly they'd come over better. As to management and the board. My 3rd most frequently used line is the Central Line. For the new stock some genius presumably persuaded numerous committees and boards that it would be a nice idea to have wrap around windows up to the ceiling to allow the punters to better view the Essex countryside. Unfortunately it was only after the new stock came on stream that it was realised that in the absence of air-conditioning the insides of the car became unbearably hot in sunny weather. Like little greenhouses in fact. Now who'd have thought ? So that as result all the windows ended up tinted. Which while maybe looking stylish to types attracted to that sort of thing had the unfortunate result that passengers standing outside on the platform are unable to see inside and which carriages are full and which are empty. One possible solution might be to blank out the additional window area with opaque film do reducing it to what it was before. However that's unlikely to happen as it would be a living testament to the monumental cock-up that was seemingly perpetrated at all levels of LT management. Instead Central Line passengers are going to have to suffer a situation where they can't see inside a train before boarding for the next, what 40 years ? Oh and having done a bit of reading up. Apparently owing to the brake thing plus the leaves on the Uxbridge line trains on the Piccadilly Line are the most susceptible to flats. Which is why it was such a great idea to put the only truing lathe in the maintenance pit at Northfelds depot where its use would preclude other maintenance functions. Although of course unlike the stroppy drivers who are all to real to some people this stuff is only "rumours" appearing on blogs etc rather than LU hand-outs michael adams ... |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
In message , at
10:01:56 on Mon, 10 Apr 2017, michael adams remarked: My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually by refacing the effected wheels on lathes. Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the first place. If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a combination of medium term weather conditions plus one of the big storms) the only way to prevent the wheel flats would be to stop running the trains. Or how about taking the first two or three scheduled trains out of service, in both directions on the Uxbridge line where most of the problems appear to arise, and run the RAT up and down instead between Acton Town and Uxbridge ? You are assuming they have such trains for the stretch from Acton Town to Rayners Lane. -- Roland Perry |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:07:57 +0100
"michael adams" wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message But the union still used it as an excuse for industrial action. The union didn't use it as an "excuse" for anything. Although possibly they were justifiably disappointed that the first recourse of LT management whenever drivers report a problem who's effects aren't manifestly apparent, is to suggest that the drivers are lying or making things up. Perhaps if the drivers didn't cry wolf so often people might actually believe them occasionally. Sadly those bridges burned and collapsed long ago. They only have themselves to blame for the publics complete cynicism with anything they have to say which of course emboldens management. It would seem the unions and their members are too dim to see the long term consequences of calling strikes for fatuous reasons. But then I suppose if you're fairly smart you don't drive a train for a living. -- Spud |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:07:57 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... You may well know that, and his fellow drivers may well know that, but do the general public ? If B J's example is allowed as a real possibility, is it realistic to suppose that LU would immediately own up to real possibility that their trains are at fault, without first holding some sort of internal enquiry ? The question was whether the reports of such door openings were spurious. The actual door problem appears to have been acknowledged, investigated and fixed. It was apparently a fault in a single door engine, and no-one blamed the driver. To repeat "The question was whether the reports of such door openings were spurious". In other words, when supposedly trusted employees of LT, trusted sufficiently to be able to drive trains at least., report a problem with doors, "a question" immediately arises as to whether they're simply telling lies or not. And then it turns out that "apparently" the drivers weren't telling lies or making things up after all. That's what you're saying in effect, is it not ? But the union still used it as an excuse for industrial action. The union didn't use it as an "excuse" for anything. Although possibly they were justifiably disappointed that the first recourse of LT management whenever drivers report a problem who's effects aren't manifestly apparent, is to suggest that the drivers are lying or making things up. Although as I've already said, and in answer to your diatribe in your other post the problem is not that the drivers are always in the right and the management always in the wrong, but even in those cases where they are in the right they're inadequately represented such that their point is not put across. If they employed PR smoothies to represent them in the media as do LU - then possibly they'd come over better. As to management and the board. My 3rd most frequently used line is the Central Line. For the new stock some genius presumably persuaded numerous committees and boards that it would be a nice idea to have wrap around windows up to the ceiling to allow the punters to better view the Essex countryside. I assume you're new to London? Otherwise, you might remember the extensive public testing of three different prototype trains before the current Central Line trains were ordered. The trains that were ordered were based on the most popular of the new designs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London...und_1986_Stock As for them being "new", I'm sure the LU management will be pleased that one of its most severe, if uninformed, critics regards 25 year-old trains as "new". Perhaps you've also not noticed that the three subsequent deep tube stock designs haven't had the wrap-over windows you so hate. Unfortunately it was only after the new stock came on stream that it was realised that in the absence of air-conditioning the insides of the car became unbearably hot in sunny weather. Like little greenhouses in fact. Now who'd have thought ? So that as result all the windows ended up tinted. Which while maybe looking stylish to types attracted to that sort of thing had the unfortunate result that passengers standing outside on the platform are unable to see inside and which carriages are full and which are empty. One possible solution might be to blank out the additional window area with opaque film do reducing it to what it was before. However that's unlikely to happen as it would be a living testament to the monumental cock-up that was seemingly perpetrated at all levels of LT management. Instead Central Line passengers are going to have to suffer a situation where they can't see inside a train before boarding for the next, what 40 years ? You may hate LU management, but even they don't try and keep trains in service for 65 years. Perhaps you'd like to comment on the likely designs for the replacement stock? Oh and having done a bit of reading up. Apparently owing to the brake thing plus the leaves on the Uxbridge line trains on the Piccadilly Line are the most susceptible to flats. Yes, I'm glad you've read the document I linked to. Which is why it was such a great idea to put the only truing lathe in the maintenance pit at Northfelds depot where its use would preclude other maintenance functions. As you're such an expert, where would you have placed the wheel lathe? Although of course unlike the stroppy drivers who are all to real to some people this stuff is only "rumours" appearing on blogs etc rather than LU hand-outs Unfortunately, the rail unions have acquired a bad reputation for lying, so the default assumption now is that anything they say is unlikely to be true. |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:01:56 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 13:41:52 on Sat, 8 Apr 2017, michael adams remarked: My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually by refacing the effected wheels on lathes. Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the first place. If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a combination of medium term weather conditions plus one of the big storms) the only way to prevent the wheel flats would be to stop running the trains. Or how about taking the first two or three scheduled trains out of service, in both directions on the Uxbridge line where most of the problems appear to arise, and run the RAT up and down instead between Acton Town and Uxbridge ? How many RATs does LU have that can run on the Piccadilly Line? In fact, LU also ran the A-stock RAT on the Rayner's Lane to Ealing Common section because of the problems. |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:12:35 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: In message , at 10:01:56 on Mon, 10 Apr 2017, michael adams remarked: My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually by refacing the effected wheels on lathes. Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the first place. If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a combination of medium term weather conditions plus one of the big storms) the only way to prevent the wheel flats would be to stop running the trains. Or how about taking the first two or three scheduled trains out of service, in both directions on the Uxbridge line where most of the problems appear to arise, and run the RAT up and down instead between Acton Town and Uxbridge ? You are assuming they have such trains for the stretch from Acton Town to Rayners Lane. They do, of course. |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
|
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 09:00:44 -0500,
wrote: In article , (michael adams) wrote: As to management and the board. My 3rd most frequently used line is the Central Line. For the new stock some genius presumably persuaded numerous committees and boards that it would be a nice idea to have wrap around windows up to the ceiling to allow the punters to better view the Essex countryside. Unfortunately it was only after the new stock came on stream that it was realised that in the absence of air-conditioning the insides of the car became unbearably hot in sunny weather. Like little greenhouses in fact. Now who'd have thought ? So that as result all the windows ended up tinted. Which while maybe looking stylish to types attracted to that sort of thing had the unfortunate result that passengers standing outside on the platform are unable to see inside and which carriages are full and which are empty. One possible solution might be to blank out the additional window area with opaque film do reducing it to what it was before. However that's unlikely to happen as it would be a living testament to the monumental cock-up that was seemingly perpetrated at all levels of LT management. Instead Central Line passengers are going to have to suffer a situation where they can't see inside a train before boarding for the next, what 40 years ? Hey! Less of the ********, please! An advantage of windows going up into the roof space is that passengers can see out at stations more easily and see which station they are at. The original Victoria Line 1967 stock introduced the idea after trials on a 1938 stock car after the War. I can see this is less of an issue with modern passenger information systems which announce each station but does the 1992 stock have such systems? The current system is audio-only, but digital information displays are apparently on the way. http://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOT...6:TEXT:EN:HTML I suppose they're needed for compliance with the new 2020 PRM TSI rules, though it seems like an unnecessary enhancement so late in the life of the trains. |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
In article ,
(Recliner) wrote: On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 09:00:44 -0500, wrote: In article , (michael adams) wrote: As to management and the board. My 3rd most frequently used line is the Central Line. For the new stock some genius presumably persuaded numerous committees and boards that it would be a nice idea to have wrap around windows up to the ceiling to allow the punters to better view the Essex countryside. Unfortunately it was only after the new stock came on stream that it was realised that in the absence of air-conditioning the insides of the car became unbearably hot in sunny weather. Like little greenhouses in fact. Now who'd have thought ? So that as result all the windows ended up tinted. Which while maybe looking stylish to types attracted to that sort of thing had the unfortunate result that passengers standing outside on the platform are unable to see inside and which carriages are full and which are empty. One possible solution might be to blank out the additional window area with opaque film do reducing it to what it was before. However that's unlikely to happen as it would be a living testament to the monumental cock-up that was seemingly perpetrated at all levels of LT management. Instead Central Line passengers are going to have to suffer a situation where they can't see inside a train before boarding for the next, what 40 years ? Hey! Less of the ********, please! An advantage of windows going up into the roof space is that passengers can see out at stations more easily and see which station they are at. The original Victoria Line 1967 stock introduced the idea after trials on a 1938 stock car after the War. I can see this is less of an issue with modern passenger information systems which announce each station but does the 1992 stock have such systems? The current system is audio-only, but digital information displays are apparently on the way. http://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOT...6:TEXT:EN:HTML I suppose they're needed for compliance with the new 2020 PRM TSI rules, though it seems like an unnecessary enhancement so late in the life of the trains. Not that late surely? If memory serves they're due for retractioning too. When are they due for replacement? -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
wrote:
In article , (Recliner) wrote: On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 09:00:44 -0500, wrote: In article , (michael adams) wrote: As to management and the board. My 3rd most frequently used line is the Central Line. For the new stock some genius presumably persuaded numerous committees and boards that it would be a nice idea to have wrap around windows up to the ceiling to allow the punters to better view the Essex countryside. Unfortunately it was only after the new stock came on stream that it was realised that in the absence of air-conditioning the insides of the car became unbearably hot in sunny weather. Like little greenhouses in fact. Now who'd have thought ? So that as result all the windows ended up tinted. Which while maybe looking stylish to types attracted to that sort of thing had the unfortunate result that passengers standing outside on the platform are unable to see inside and which carriages are full and which are empty. One possible solution might be to blank out the additional window area with opaque film do reducing it to what it was before. However that's unlikely to happen as it would be a living testament to the monumental cock-up that was seemingly perpetrated at all levels of LT management. Instead Central Line passengers are going to have to suffer a situation where they can't see inside a train before boarding for the next, what 40 years ? Hey! Less of the ********, please! An advantage of windows going up into the roof space is that passengers can see out at stations more easily and see which station they are at. The original Victoria Line 1967 stock introduced the idea after trials on a 1938 stock car after the War. I can see this is less of an issue with modern passenger information systems which announce each station but does the 1992 stock have such systems? The current system is audio-only, but digital information displays are apparently on the way. http://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOT...6:TEXT:EN:HTML I suppose they're needed for compliance with the new 2020 PRM TSI rules, though it seems like an unnecessary enhancement so late in the life of the trains. Not that late surely? If memory serves they're due for retractioning too. When are they due for replacement? They're not 'due' for replacement for another 20+ years, but probably *will* be replaced within 15 years. LU would like to be shot of them, and they'll go as part of the NTfL programme. So they'll probably do just under 40 years, compared to about 50 for the 1973 and A stock. The 72TS may manage an amazing 60 years! |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
In message , at 14:28:28 on
Mon, 10 Apr 2017, Recliner remarked: My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually by refacing the effected wheels on lathes. Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the first place. If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a combination of medium term weather conditions plus one of the big storms) the only way to prevent the wheel flats would be to stop running the trains. Or how about taking the first two or three scheduled trains out of service, in both directions on the Uxbridge line where most of the problems appear to arise, and run the RAT up and down instead between Acton Town and Uxbridge ? You are assuming they have such trains for the stretch from Acton Town to Rayners Lane. They do, of course. Others say they only have them for the Central and Met. -- Roland Perry |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:28:28 on Mon, 10 Apr 2017, Recliner remarked: My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually by refacing the effected wheels on lathes. Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the first place. If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a combination of medium term weather conditions plus one of the big storms) the only way to prevent the wheel flats would be to stop running the trains. Or how about taking the first two or three scheduled trains out of service, in both directions on the Uxbridge line where most of the problems appear to arise, and run the RAT up and down instead between Acton Town and Uxbridge ? You are assuming they have such trains for the stretch from Acton Town to Rayners Lane. They do, of course. Others say they only have them for the Central and Met. Yes, but the A-stock RATs (now replaced by two newer D-stock RATs) covered that section. Here's a pic (not mine) of the A-stock RAT at Ealing Common, alongside an in-service D78: https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5787/...af4ff4_o_d.jpg |
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 00:14:33 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: They're not 'due' for replacement for another 20+ years, but probably *will* be replaced within 15 years. LU would like to be shot of them, and they'll go as part of the NTfL programme. So they'll probably do just under 40 years, compared to about 50 for the 1973 and A stock. The 72TS may manage an amazing 60 years! I actually rather like them. Good acceleration and good use of interior space especially with the middle seats pulled back right to the window. Its something the designers of the 2009 stock should have looked at before they wasted god knows how many square feet with unnecessary wall cladding behind the seats which could be moved a good 3-4 inches back each side with a resulting increase in standing room. -- Spud |
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