Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

On Wed, 24 May 2017 17:06:22 +0100
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 24/05/2017 09:29, d wrote:
Why? You see a friends brother happens to be an ATC at city airport which is
why I already knew about that plan to lay them off, sorry , "transfer". And
guess what? They use the angled windows to look out and keeps tabs on what is
going on right beneath them when appropriate. So all you so called aviation
experts can shoev your google answers where the angled windows don't reach.
:)


Another of your famous "friends"?

Huh? He's not a friend, he's a brother of a friend.

My sister is an ATC and she reckons the windows are angled to stop
reflections.

"Reckons"? Anyway, there doesn't have to be just one purpose. Perhaps the
reflections was the initial reason and a side effect was it led to better
visuals. Or vice verca.

--
Spud

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

"Recliner" wrote in message
...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after
Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under
contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

or they could just do the simple thing of charging premium fares to LHR

Works elsewhere (even in the UK, on HS1), it's not rocket science

tim

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Ding Bat wrote:
On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 3:03:07 PM UTC+5:30, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
11:37:52 on Sun, 21 May 2017, Ding Bat
remarked:
On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 11:07:19 PM UTC+5:30, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
09:22:54 on Sun, 21 May 2017, Ding Bat
remarked:
If, hypothetically, the judge finds that Heathrow has the right to
levy
this charge, it would be possible to charge less per train by running
more trains by adding more destinations. Heathrow Connect to
Paddington
is slated to be phased out in favor of Crossrail to Paddington.
Heathrow Connect could be continued as a service to Stratford rather
than Paddington; it would become the easiest way to get from Heathrow
to a number of northern suburbs by mass transit. In addition, trains
could be run from Heathrow to busy junctions - Reading

Once a new line is built beyond Heathrow.

What new line? The same line that takes Heathrow Express to Paddington
can be
used to go to Reading. Trains would just have to turn west toward
Reading instead instead of east toward Paddington.

Across a lake and through the middle of a warehouse. What could possibly
go wrong?

It would require some construction. To the east of Heathpark Golf Course,
the railroad is in a tunnel. The tunnel would have to be forked and the
fork routed to some point before West Drayton station, so that there can
be trains from Heathrow to Reading and points beyond.

What's the point of this idea when the *much* more useful Western Rail
Link
is underway?

For comparison, there are trains from Frankfurt airport to cities other
than Frankfurt.

That's because the airport station is on the main line.

Historically not,

they had to build the mainline to serve it, for at least the first 20 years
of its existence it was at the end of a simple spur

tim

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at
05:59:21 on Wed, 24 May 2017, Ding Bat
remarked:
If construction is allowed in this pipe-dream, then the plan is to
extend the line through Terminal 5 towards Slough.

Ah, so there's such a thing already in the works! Thanks for the
information.
The underground portion of that line will be from T5 to Langley,
according
to this:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-berkshire-35803950

Projects like that are a minimum of five years late, so if it was
suggested they might start tunnelling soon, don't hold your breath until
2016 + 5 years work + 5 years standard delay for an actual service.

Has it even been approved yet (genuine question).

As I have posted before,

I started my career working at Feltham and there was a proposal then for
(what is most recently called) "Heathrow Airtrack " to connect to (what I
will call, for the benefit of our obviously American friend) London South
Western lines to Reading/ Woking and beyond, which would be built within 5
years.

I am now with 5 years of retirement, and it is still nothing more than a
proposal and even further away than 5 years from ever being built

Bloody good job I didn't stay living in Feltham on this basis of this
"promised" new service.

tim








--
Roland Perry

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

On 2017\05\25 11:30, tim... wrote:

I started my career working at Feltham

Being a young offender isn't technically a career ;-)

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 6:56:58 PM UTC+5:30, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:37:18 on
Tue, 23 May 2017, Recliner remarked:
"Lots of people fly into Heathrow wanting to visit ExCel? Really??"
During major exhibitions - yes - absolutely. For example, World Travel
Mart (held at Excel) is a "must attend" event in the travel business -
there are loads of people who fly in specifically to attend it. City
airport is much handier for Excel, but there are loads of places
(especially long haul) which don't have flights into City.

I'm aware of that show, and even have friends in that business (from
overseas) who exhibit. They fly in and out of Luton, incidentally.

It is, however, a tiny number of people compared to the million a day
who are predicted to use Crossrail, or the 80,000 a day who use
Heathrow.

Like other shows at Excel, it attracts about 15-20,000 a day, of whom
3,000 a day are actual travel buyers.

Out of that lot if more than 1,000 each of the three days have flown in
through Heathrow, rather than being based in the UK or using other
airports, E* etc to arrive from abroad, I'll eat my hat.

Of course, 1,000 top quality buyers is plenty if you have a selling
booth at WTM, but it's not a number to build a railway timetable around.

No, but we were discussing the attractions of Crossrail vs HEx. Any of
those visitors who currently use Heathrow and HEx will certainly
switch to Crossrail. And some who previously flew to Luton may switch
to LHR and Crossrail, too. Or they can change at Farringdon to
Crossrail.

It's just one example of the many flows that will use Crossrail rather
than HEx.

Yes, lots of "only quite a few" passengers.
--
Roland Perry

Does HEx have to continue to terminate at Paddington? Can't it go nonstop to Paddington and then continue to Abbey Wood with the same stops as what will replace Heathrow Connect?

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 4:01:07 PM UTC+5:30, tim... wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at
05:59:21 on Wed, 24 May 2017, Ding Bat
remarked:
If construction is allowed in this pipe-dream, then the plan is to
extend the line through Terminal 5 towards Slough.

Ah, so there's such a thing already in the works! Thanks for the
information.
The underground portion of that line will be from T5 to Langley,
according
to this:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-berkshire-35803950

Projects like that are a minimum of five years late, so if it was
suggested they might start tunnelling soon, don't hold your breath until
2016 + 5 years work + 5 years standard delay for an actual service.

Has it even been approved yet (genuine question).

As I have posted before,

I started my career working at Feltham and there was a proposal then for
(what is most recently called) "Heathrow Airtrack " to connect to (what I
will call, for the benefit of our obviously American friend) London South
Western lines to Reading/ Woking and beyond, which would be built within 5
years.

I am now with 5 years of retirement, and it is still nothing more than a
proposal and even further away than 5 years from ever being built

Extending the track to T4 further beyond would seem to take it to Feltham; it looks like a natural route on the map.

Bloody good job I didn't stay living in Feltham on this basis of this
"promised" new service.

What's wrong with living in Feltham without this new service? The rich in Belgravia are moving to Fulham to make way for the super-rich. The masses would have to live even further away for affordability; Feltham seems not that much further than Fulham.

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

In message , at
07:14:14 on Thu, 25 May 2017, Ding Bat
remarked:
I started my career working at Feltham and there was a proposal then for
(what is most recently called) "Heathrow Airtrack " to connect to (what I
will call, for the benefit of our obviously American friend) London South
Western lines to Reading/ Woking and beyond, which would be built within 5
years.

I am now with 5 years of retirement, and it is still nothing more than a
proposal and even further away than 5 years from ever being built

Extending the track to T4 further beyond would seem to take it to Feltham; it
looks like a natural route on the map.

AIUI the problem is the extra delays at level crossings which such a
route would generate.
--
Roland Perry

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

In message , at
07:05:05 on Thu, 25 May 2017, Ding Bat
remarked:

Does HEx have to continue to terminate at Paddington? Can't it go nonstop
to Paddington and then continue to Abbey Wood with the same stops as
what will replace Heathrow Connect?

If an agreement is negotiated, then it could go further east, if
something is sorted out to get their trains from the fast to slow lines
approaching Paddington. A flat junction is probably out of the question.

Very politically and commercially sensitive project even then.
--
Roland Perry

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

On Thu, 25 May 2017 15:45:41 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

AIUI the problem is the extra delays at level crossings which such a
route would generate.

Do they have to be level?

--
jhk

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

Ding Bat wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 6:56:58 PM UTC+5:30, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:37:18 on
Tue, 23 May 2017, Recliner remarked:
"Lots of people fly into Heathrow wanting to visit ExCel? Really??"
During major exhibitions - yes - absolutely. For example, World Travel
Mart (held at Excel) is a "must attend" event in the travel business -
there are loads of people who fly in specifically to attend it. City
airport is much handier for Excel, but there are loads of places
(especially long haul) which don't have flights into City.

I'm aware of that show, and even have friends in that business (from
overseas) who exhibit. They fly in and out of Luton, incidentally.

It is, however, a tiny number of people compared to the million a day
who are predicted to use Crossrail, or the 80,000 a day who use
Heathrow.

Like other shows at Excel, it attracts about 15-20,000 a day, of whom
3,000 a day are actual travel buyers.

Out of that lot if more than 1,000 each of the three days have flown in
through Heathrow, rather than being based in the UK or using other
airports, E* etc to arrive from abroad, I'll eat my hat.

Of course, 1,000 top quality buyers is plenty if you have a selling
booth at WTM, but it's not a number to build a railway timetable around.

No, but we were discussing the attractions of Crossrail vs HEx. Any of
those visitors who currently use Heathrow and HEx will certainly
switch to Crossrail. And some who previously flew to Luton may switch
to LHR and Crossrail, too. Or they can change at Farringdon to
Crossrail.

It's just one example of the many flows that will use Crossrail rather
than HEx.

Yes, lots of "only quite a few" passengers.
--
Roland Perry

Does HEx have to continue to terminate at Paddington? Can't it go nonstop
to Paddington and then continue to Abbey Wood with the same stops as what
will replace Heathrow Connect?

Even if that were possible, how could it attract a premium fare in such a
case? And how could such a premium fare be enforced?

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote:
On Thu, 25 May 2017 15:45:41 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

AIUI the problem is the extra delays at level crossings which such a
route would generate.

Do they have to be level?

They already are. The abandoned proposal was for a service to Waterloo,
using existing tracks east of Staines.

The new approved plan is to go to Slough instead. I'm not clear if the
project is fully funded or not.

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

In message , at 17:05:50 on
Thu, 25 May 2017, Jarle Hammen Knudsen remarked:

AIUI the problem is the extra delays at level crossings which such a
route would generate.

Do they have to be level?

For the budget to be reasonable, yes.
--
Roland Perry

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 15:52:40 on Thu, 25 May 2017, Recliner
remarked:

Does HEx have to continue to terminate at Paddington? Can't it go nonstop
to Paddington and then continue to Abbey Wood with the same stops as what
will replace Heathrow Connect?

Even if that were possible, how could it attract a premium fare in such a
case? And how could such a premium fare be enforced?

On-board grippers, like they use today. For the leg from the airport to
Paddington, anyway. The rest they'd have offer interavailable ticketing
with Crossrail, which of course would abstract revenue from TfL.
--
Roland Perry

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

"Ding Bat" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 4:01:07 PM UTC+5:30, tim... wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at
05:59:21 on Wed, 24 May 2017, Ding Bat
remarked:
If construction is allowed in this pipe-dream, then the plan is to
extend the line through Terminal 5 towards Slough.

Ah, so there's such a thing already in the works! Thanks for the
information.
The underground portion of that line will be from T5 to Langley,
according
to this:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-berkshire-35803950

Projects like that are a minimum of five years late, so if it was
suggested they might start tunnelling soon, don't hold your breath
until
2016 + 5 years work + 5 years standard delay for an actual service.

Has it even been approved yet (genuine question).

As I have posted before,

I started my career working at Feltham and there was a proposal then for
(what is most recently called) "Heathrow Airtrack " to connect to (what I
will call, for the benefit of our obviously American friend) London South
Western lines to Reading/ Woking and beyond, which would be built within
5
years.

I am now with 5 years of retirement, and it is still nothing more than a
proposal and even further away than 5 years from ever being built

Extending the track to T4 further beyond would seem to take it to Feltham;
it looks like a natural route on the map.

Bloody good job I didn't stay living in Feltham on this basis of this
"promised" new service.

What's wrong with living in Feltham without this new service?

It's a ****-hole

tim

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

On 25/05/2017 09:40, d wrote:
On Wed, 24 May 2017 17:06:22 +0100
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 24/05/2017 09:29, d wrote:
Why? You see a friends brother happens to be an ATC at city airport which is
why I already knew about that plan to lay them off, sorry , "transfer". And
guess what? They use the angled windows to look out and keeps tabs on what is
going on right beneath them when appropriate. So all you so called aviation
experts can shoev your google answers where the angled windows don't reach.
:)


Another of your famous "friends"?

Huh? He's not a friend, he's a brother of a friend.

My sister is an ATC and she reckons the windows are angled to stop
reflections.

"Reckons"? Anyway, there doesn't have to be just one purpose. Perhaps the
reflections was the initial reason and a side effect was it led to better
visuals. Or vice verca.


It leads to better visibility because there are no reflections.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

Graeme Wall wrote:
On 25/05/2017 09:40, d wrote:
On Wed, 24 May 2017 17:06:22 +0100
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 24/05/2017 09:29, d wrote:
Why? You see a friends brother happens to be an ATC at city airport which is
why I already knew about that plan to lay them off, sorry , "transfer". And
guess what? They use the angled windows to look out and keeps tabs on what is
going on right beneath them when appropriate. So all you so called aviation
experts can shoev your google answers where the angled windows don't reach.
:)


Another of your famous "friends"?

Huh? He's not a friend, he's a brother of a friend.

My sister is an ATC and she reckons the windows are angled to stop
reflections.

"Reckons"? Anyway, there doesn't have to be just one purpose. Perhaps the
reflections was the initial reason and a side effect was it led to better
visuals. Or vice verca.


It leads to better visibility because there are no reflections.

That's clearly (ha ha) the number one reason. The second reason is to
reduce the number of rain drops on the windows. As a by-product, it may
also help downward visibility, but only with control towers that allow
close access to the windows (many have desks and screens in the way). If
they really need a direct view down (irrelevant with most control towers),
a downward pointing camera will be much more useful, providing better
vision without leaving the desk.

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 9:26:07 PM UTC+5:30, Recliner wrote:
Ding Bat wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 6:56:58 PM UTC+5:30, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:37:18 on
Tue, 23 May 2017, Recliner remarked:
"Lots of people fly into Heathrow wanting to visit ExCel? Really??"
During major exhibitions - yes - absolutely. For example, World Travel
Mart (held at Excel) is a "must attend" event in the travel business -
there are loads of people who fly in specifically to attend it. City
airport is much handier for Excel, but there are loads of places
(especially long haul) which don't have flights into City.

I'm aware of that show, and even have friends in that business (from
overseas) who exhibit. They fly in and out of Luton, incidentally.

It is, however, a tiny number of people compared to the million a day
who are predicted to use Crossrail, or the 80,000 a day who use
Heathrow.

Like other shows at Excel, it attracts about 15-20,000 a day, of whom
3,000 a day are actual travel buyers.

Out of that lot if more than 1,000 each of the three days have flown in
through Heathrow, rather than being based in the UK or using other
airports, E* etc to arrive from abroad, I'll eat my hat.

Of course, 1,000 top quality buyers is plenty if you have a selling
booth at WTM, but it's not a number to build a railway timetable around.

No, but we were discussing the attractions of Crossrail vs HEx. Any of
those visitors who currently use Heathrow and HEx will certainly
switch to Crossrail. And some who previously flew to Luton may switch
to LHR and Crossrail, too. Or they can change at Farringdon to
Crossrail.

It's just one example of the many flows that will use Crossrail rather
than HEx.

Yes, lots of "only quite a few" passengers.
--
Roland Perry

Does HEx have to continue to terminate at Paddington? Can't it go nonstop
to Paddington and then continue to Abbey Wood with the same stops as what
will replace Heathrow Connect?

Even if that were possible, how could it attract a premium fare in such a
case? And how could such a premium fare be enforced?

There would be more passengers available to pay a premium, to offset the loss of passengers to the non-express Crossrail. Think Liverpool St to Heathrow with its being express after Paddington. Some proportion of passengers would choose to pay the premium for the time saving and if the express is less full, they'd also be paying the premium for comfort (not having to stand) if the premium keeps passenger count low enough for all, or all in Heathrow designated carriages, to get seats. Remember that standing would be more of a drag for those who have luggage.

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

"Ding Bat" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 9:26:07 PM UTC+5:30, Recliner wrote:
Ding Bat wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 6:56:58 PM UTC+5:30, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:37:18
on
Tue, 23 May 2017, Recliner remarked:
"Lots of people fly into Heathrow wanting to visit ExCel? Really??"
During major exhibitions - yes - absolutely. For example, World
Travel
Mart (held at Excel) is a "must attend" event in the travel
business -
there are loads of people who fly in specifically to attend it.
City
airport is much handier for Excel, but there are loads of places
(especially long haul) which don't have flights into City.

I'm aware of that show, and even have friends in that business (from
overseas) who exhibit. They fly in and out of Luton, incidentally.

It is, however, a tiny number of people compared to the million a
day
who are predicted to use Crossrail, or the 80,000 a day who use
Heathrow.

Like other shows at Excel, it attracts about 15-20,000 a day, of
whom
3,000 a day are actual travel buyers.

Out of that lot if more than 1,000 each of the three days have flown
in
through Heathrow, rather than being based in the UK or using other
airports, E* etc to arrive from abroad, I'll eat my hat.

Of course, 1,000 top quality buyers is plenty if you have a selling
booth at WTM, but it's not a number to build a railway timetable
around.

No, but we were discussing the attractions of Crossrail vs HEx. Any
of
those visitors who currently use Heathrow and HEx will certainly
switch to Crossrail. And some who previously flew to Luton may switch
to LHR and Crossrail, too. Or they can change at Farringdon to
Crossrail.

It's just one example of the many flows that will use Crossrail
rather
than HEx.

Yes, lots of "only quite a few" passengers.
--
Roland Perry

Does HEx have to continue to terminate at Paddington? Can't it go
nonstop
to Paddington and then continue to Abbey Wood with the same stops as
what
will replace Heathrow Connect?

Even if that were possible, how could it attract a premium fare in such a
case? And how could such a premium fare be enforced?

There would be more passengers available to pay a premium, to offset the
loss of passengers to the non-express Crossrail. Think Liverpool St to
Heathrow with its being express after Paddington. Some proportion of
passengers would choose to pay the premium for the time saving and if the
express is less full, they'd also be paying the premium for comfort (not
having to stand) if the premium keeps passenger count low enough for all,
or all in Heathrow designated carriages, to get seats. Remember that
standing would be more of a drag for those who have luggage.

As the trains are going to look like any other train from LSt to Padd with
all the normal use by passengers travelling to/from intermediate points,
they will likely be full at every stop (You've obviously never been on the
Underground)

And even if there are motivations to get on at LSt and pay extra for a
slightly quicker journey for the part from Padd to LHR, how are you going to
enforce that fare?

It can't be done at barriers - and trains are likely to be too full to send
a griper around in the time available.

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

In message , at
01:49:07 on Fri, 26 May 2017, Ding Bat
remarked:
Does HEx have to continue to terminate at Paddington? Can't it go nonstop
to Paddington and then continue to Abbey Wood with the same stops as what
will replace Heathrow Connect?

Even if that were possible, how could it attract a premium fare in such a
case? And how could such a premium fare be enforced?

There would be more passengers available to pay a premium, to offset the loss of passengers to the non-express Crossrail. Think Liverpool St to
Heathrow with its being express after Paddington. Some proportion of passengers would choose to pay the premium for the time saving and if the
express is less full, they'd also be paying the premium for comfort (not having to stand) if the premium keeps passenger count low enough for
all, or all in Heathrow designated carriages, to get seats. Remember that standing would be more of a drag for those who have luggage.

I'm afraid I don't have the same access as you to transport forecasts
which would apply to the various future developments which you have in
mind. So I can't comment.
--
Roland Perry

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44


snip

Judgment published this afternoon:

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/...2017/1290.html

Heathrow Airport's application for judicial review of the ORR's
decision is refused.


Remove 2001. to reply by email. I apologise for the inconvenience.

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

Ding Bat wrote:
On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 9:26:07 PM UTC+5:30, Recliner wrote:
Ding Bat wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 6:56:58 PM UTC+5:30, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:37:18 on
Tue, 23 May 2017, Recliner remarked:
"Lots of people fly into Heathrow wanting to visit ExCel? Really??"
During major exhibitions - yes - absolutely. For example, World Travel
Mart (held at Excel) is a "must attend" event in the travel business -
there are loads of people who fly in specifically to attend it. City
airport is much handier for Excel, but there are loads of places
(especially long haul) which don't have flights into City.

I'm aware of that show, and even have friends in that business (from
overseas) who exhibit. They fly in and out of Luton, incidentally.

It is, however, a tiny number of people compared to the million a day
who are predicted to use Crossrail, or the 80,000 a day who use
Heathrow.

Like other shows at Excel, it attracts about 15-20,000 a day, of whom
3,000 a day are actual travel buyers.

Out of that lot if more than 1,000 each of the three days have flown in
through Heathrow, rather than being based in the UK or using other
airports, E* etc to arrive from abroad, I'll eat my hat.

Of course, 1,000 top quality buyers is plenty if you have a selling
booth at WTM, but it's not a number to build a railway timetable around.

No, but we were discussing the attractions of Crossrail vs HEx. Any of
those visitors who currently use Heathrow and HEx will certainly
switch to Crossrail. And some who previously flew to Luton may switch
to LHR and Crossrail, too. Or they can change at Farringdon to
Crossrail.

It's just one example of the many flows that will use Crossrail rather
than HEx.

Yes, lots of "only quite a few" passengers.
--
Roland Perry

Does HEx have to continue to terminate at Paddington? Can't it go nonstop
to Paddington and then continue to Abbey Wood with the same stops as what
will replace Heathrow Connect?

Even if that were possible, how could it attract a premium fare in such a
case? And how could such a premium fare be enforced?

There would be more passengers available to pay a premium, to offset the
loss of passengers to the non-express Crossrail. Think Liverpool St to
Heathrow with its being express after Paddington. Some proportion of
passengers would choose to pay the premium for the time saving and if the
express is less full, they'd also be paying the premium for comfort (not
having to stand) if the premium keeps passenger count low enough for all,
or all in Heathrow designated carriages, to get seats. Remember that
standing would be more of a drag for those who have luggage.

How could it be express after Padd? The Crossrail tunnels connect to the
Relief, not the Main lines.

Anyway, it's now academic, as HAL has lost the case.

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

"Recliner" wrote in message
...

Anyway, it's now academic, as HAL has lost the case.


until they appeal :-)

(I have no idea if that is likely as the legal arguments on which they lost
are beyond me)

tim

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...

Anyway, it's now academic, as HAL has lost the case.


until they appeal :-)

(I have no idea if that is likely as the legal arguments on which they lost
are beyond me)

No, they have now exhausted the appeals procedures.

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 15:58:54 on Fri, 26 May 2017, Recliner
remarked:

Think Liverpool St to
Heathrow with its being express after Paddington.
....
How could it be express after Padd? The Crossrail tunnels connect to the
Relief, not the Main lines.

I already covered that aspect in my remarks about a flat junction at
Paddington.

Anyway, it's now academic, as HAL has lost the case.

Thanks for the info.
--
Roland Perry

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...

Anyway, it's now academic, as HAL has lost the case.


until they appeal :-)

(I have no idea if that is likely as the legal arguments on which they
lost
are beyond me)

No, they have now exhausted the appeals procedures.

have they?

this was a judgment by a single judge at the high court

is there really not a higher court they can apply to

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

There is apparently an agreement:
https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...sted-services/

"Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport
have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the
airport, including the addition of two new Elizabeth Line trains per
hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019."

Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express

"From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow, meaning
passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and
Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless
device."

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

David Walters wrote:
On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

There is apparently an agreement:
https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...sted-services/

"Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport
have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the
airport, including the addition of two new Elizabeth Line trains per
hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019."

Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express

"From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow, meaning
passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and
Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless
device."

I'm glad sense has prevailed. It's also good that HAL is allowing Elizabeth
Line trains to serve T5 as well as T4.

With 6 tph rather than 4 tph, and the hope to increase it to 8 tph, that's
a big increase in Elizabeth line services to Heathrow, which will also
reduce the number of Paddington reversers. It should take some pressure off
the Piccadilly line, too.

It's not clear if the stations will be in zone 6 for Oyster, the same as
the Heathrow Tube stations. I certainly hope so, or it's going to be very
confusing. I guess a premium fare still have to be paid on HEx first class,
but it sounds like there won't be a premium for HEx standard class.

I wonder if this outbreak of reasonableness has anything to do with
approval for the third runway?

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification
for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after
Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under
contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate
a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

There is apparently an agreement:
https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...sted-services/

"Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport
have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the
airport, including the addition of two new Elizabeth Line trains per
hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019."

Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express

"From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow, meaning
passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and
Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless
device."

So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then?

How will the Oyster machine know that the user is intending to travel on HEx
and not on Crossrail?

I suppose that it could be enforced at the other end, but then what will the
default fare be for people who don't tap out? And that will, of course,
delay passengers alighting from HEx at Padd as they queue to tap out. Which
will somewhat negate much of the convenience that the higher fare is paying
for.

There could be different machines for each train, but that will cause
confusions - I suspect most people would rather the convenience of Oyster
weren't available to HEx passengers if the result is that pax who travel on
Crossrail risk getting charged a premium fare for tapping on the wrong
machine.

I'm wondering if they really mean that oyster will be accepted for travel on
HEx.

tim

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 17:02:09 +0100, tim... wrote:


"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification
for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after
Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under
contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate
a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

There is apparently an agreement:
https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...sted-services/

"Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport
have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the
airport, including the addition of two new Elizabeth Line trains per
hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019."

Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express

"From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow, meaning
passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and
Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless
device."

So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then?

On train ticket inspection? I infrequently travel on HEx but last time
I did my ticket was checked.

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 17:02:09 +0100, tim... wrote:


"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment
funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the
track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification
for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices.
The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after
Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under
contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could
terminate
a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

There is apparently an agreement:
https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...sted-services/

"Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport
have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the
airport, including the addition of two new Elizabeth Line trains per
hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019."

Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express

"From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow,
meaning
passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and
Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless
device."

So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then?

On train ticket inspection? I infrequently travel on HEx but last time
I did my ticket was checked.

I meant:

how is the Oyster machine going to differentiate when you tap on it (at
LHR)?

tim

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

In message , at 17:13:03 on
Tue, 4 Jul 2017, David Walters remarked:

So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then?

On train ticket inspection? I infrequently travel on HEx but last time
I did my ticket was checked.

I'm pretty sure they do 100% on train inspections.
--
Roland Perry

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

tim... wrote:


"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification
for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after
Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under
contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate
a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

There is apparently an agreement:
https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...sted-services/

"Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport
have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the
airport, including the addition of two new Elizabeth Line trains per
hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019."

Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express

"From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow, meaning
passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and
Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless
device."

So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then?

How will the Oyster machine know that the user is intending to travel on HEx
and not on Crossrail?

I suppose that it could be enforced at the other end, but then what will the
default fare be for people who don't tap out? And that will, of course,
delay passengers alighting from HEx at Padd as they queue to tap out. Which
will somewhat negate much of the convenience that the higher fare is paying
for.

There could be different machines for each train, but that will cause
confusions - I suspect most people would rather the convenience of Oyster
weren't available to HEx passengers if the result is that pax who travel on
Crossrail risk getting charged a premium fare for tapping on the wrong
machine.

I'm wondering if they really mean that oyster will be accepted for travel on
HEx.



Every HEx I've travelled on has had a ticket check on the train (there
being none at Padd). The fares difference could be enforced there.

Oyster allows charging of a special, non-zonal fare for certain things.
Notably river services, at present, but also the danglebahn.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

tim... wrote:


"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 17:02:09 +0100, tim... wrote:


"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment
funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the
track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification
for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices.
The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after
Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under
contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could
terminate
a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

There is apparently an agreement:
https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...sted-services/

"Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport
have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the
airport, including the addition of two new Elizabeth Line trains per
hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019."

Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express

"From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow,
meaning
passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and
Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless
device."

So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then?

On train ticket inspection? I infrequently travel on HEx but last time
I did my ticket was checked.

I meant:

how is the Oyster machine going to differentiate when you tap on it (at
LHR)?



If the 'correction' is applied on the HEx train, then the 'touch in' device
doesn't necessarily need to know.

Presumably paper tickets will still be valid?


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
On train ticket inspection? I infrequently travel on HEx but last time
I did my ticket was checked.

I'm pretty sure they do 100% on train inspections.

Nope. I took HeX in from LHR and later back out last Sunday and
wasn't gripped on the way back. There was an agent but she didn't
have time to check everyone's tickets. and didn't seem at all
surprised or upset when we arrived with some of us uninspected.

For Oyster, there are separate platforms at Paddington for HeX and
Connect now which seems unlikely to change since the HeX platforms are
single ended. My question is how you put a discounted HeX advance
ticket on your Oyster. Will there be gates that can handle
contactless, paper tickets, and bar codes on my phone?

R's,
John

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

tim... wrote:


"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification
for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after
Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under
contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate
a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

There is apparently an agreement:
https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...sted-services/

"Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport
have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the
airport, including the addition of two new Elizabeth Line trains per
hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019."

Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express

"From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow, meaning
passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and
Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless
device."

So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then?

It look to me like the HEx premium will go in standard class.


How will the Oyster machine know that the user is intending to travel on HEx
and not on Crossrail?

They won't.

I suppose that it could be enforced at the other end, but then what will the
default fare be for people who don't tap out? And that will, of course,
delay passengers alighting from HEx at Padd as they queue to tap out. Which
will somewhat negate much of the convenience that the higher fare is paying
for.

It'll only need enforcing in the small HEx first class.


There could be different machines for each train, but that will cause
confusions - I suspect most people would rather the convenience of Oyster
weren't available to HEx passengers if the result is that pax who travel on
Crossrail risk getting charged a premium fare for tapping on the wrong
machine.

I'm wondering if they really mean that oyster will be accepted for travel on
HEx.

Yes. That's why the book-ahead HEx price ha been slashed from £22 to £5.50.

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

John Levine wrote:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
On train ticket inspection? I infrequently travel on HEx but last time
I did my ticket was checked.

I'm pretty sure they do 100% on train inspections.

Nope. I took HeX in from LHR and later back out last Sunday and
wasn't gripped on the way back. There was an agent but she didn't
have time to check everyone's tickets. and didn't seem at all
surprised or upset when we arrived with some of us uninspected.

For Oyster, there are separate platforms at Paddington for HeX and
Connect now which seems unlikely to change since the HeX platforms are
single ended. My question is how you put a discounted HeX advance
ticket on your Oyster. Will there be gates that can handle
contactless, paper tickets, and bar codes on my phone?



HConn use any electrified platform at Paddington other than the HEx
platforms.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

John Levine wrote:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
On train ticket inspection? I infrequently travel on HEx but last time
I did my ticket was checked.

I'm pretty sure they do 100% on train inspections.

Nope. I took HeX in from LHR and later back out last Sunday and
wasn't gripped on the way back. There was an agent but she didn't
have time to check everyone's tickets. and didn't seem at all
surprised or upset when we arrived with some of us uninspected.

For Oyster, there are separate platforms at Paddington for HeX and
Connect now which seems unlikely to change since the HeX platforms are
single ended. My question is how you put a discounted HeX advance
ticket on your Oyster. Will there be gates that can handle
contactless, paper tickets, and bar codes on my phone?

I don't think the new discounted HEx fares from £5.50 are aimed at Oyster
users, as it's more than the usual z1-6 Oyster fare.

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

In message , at 18:17:07 on Tue, 4 Jul 2017,
John Levine remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
On train ticket inspection? I infrequently travel on HEx but last time
I did my ticket was checked.

I'm pretty sure they do 100% on train inspections.

Nope. I took HeX in from LHR and later back out last Sunday and
wasn't gripped on the way back. There was an agent but she didn't
have time to check everyone's tickets.

They try, 100% of the time.

--
Roland Perry

Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
 

Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
John Levine wrote:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
On train ticket inspection? I infrequently travel on HEx but last time
I did my ticket was checked.

I'm pretty sure they do 100% on train inspections.

Nope. I took HeX in from LHR and later back out last Sunday and
wasn't gripped on the way back. There was an agent but she didn't
have time to check everyone's tickets. and didn't seem at all
surprised or upset when we arrived with some of us uninspected.

For Oyster, there are separate platforms at Paddington for HeX and
Connect now which seems unlikely to change since the HeX platforms are
single ended. My question is how you put a discounted HeX advance
ticket on your Oyster. Will there be gates that can handle
contactless, paper tickets, and bar codes on my phone?



HConn use any electrified platform at Paddington other than the HEx
platforms.

And, of course, the Elizabeth line will use its own low level platforms.
But HEx standard class and Elizabeth line Oyster fares will presumably have
to be the same. Or maybe they'll still charge a small premium on Oyster on
HEx, enforced through the different Paddington gate line?