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Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
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Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
On Mon, 29 May 2017 23:14:27 +0100
eastender wrote: Not in Tory manifesto. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...buffers-uncert inties-brexit-election-london#comment-99392666 I can't see the need for crossrail 2. We already have Thameslink and in north london there's the moorgate line. If its simply to improve the public transport in hackney then just build a new tube line or branch off the victoria line but don't spend billions on another north-south mainline railway. -- Spud |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
On Monday, 29 May 2017 23:14:28 UTC+1, eastender wrote:
Not in Tory manifesto. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...mment-99392666 I think it was in difficulties long before the manifesto emerged. The lack of impetus, delayed consultation stages and Grayling's dislike of devolving anything to City Hall were all clear warning signs. Grayling then said he wanted to "investigate" the use of a land value capture tax as a funding mechanism. That is just another way of delaying the scheme and postponing the funding because I don't think we have such a tax mechanism in law and you'd need a Budget and a finance bill to introduce it. The Tories are not exactly fans of introducing new taxes and the government is pretty incompetent anyway so it would be hard to get through Parliament. It is quite clear that the enthusiasm for "infrastructure" held by Cameron and Osborne is not evident in May's administration and even if she wins the General Election there are no obvious advocates for such a scheme in Government. The Chancellor is doing everything he can to avoid expensive pledges because the Exchequer needs maximum flexibility to deal with whatever the impact of Brexit will be. At a minimum, uncertainty about the process, timing and outcome of Brexit will damage the economy and even if there is no slump there will be a weakening and that damages tax income. The government are reluctant to borrow to invest so all they have left as a fiscal tool is to cut expenditure regardless of the impact. I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20 years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport investment. -- Paul C via Google |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
In message , at
04:07:40 on Tue, 30 May 2017, Paul Corfield remarked: I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20 years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport investment. Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2 brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in its alleged benefit. -- Roland Perry |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
On Tue, 30 May 2017 11:25:34 +0100
Mike Bristow wrote: In article , d wrote: I can't see the need for crossrail 2. We already have Thameslink and in north london there's the moorgate line. I think those lines are pretty full in the peak. Are thameslink using ATO in the central section yet? Thats supposed to improve throughput AFAIK. Yes, the moorgate line is busy (I use it once or twice a week) but that unfortunately is down to delays almost all the time which almost always seem to be down to a cockup by the TOC or its staff having a lie in. On the rare occasions the trains are on time they're busy but not crush loaded. If its simply to improve the public transport in hackney then just build a new tube line or branch off the victoria line The victoria line isn't exactly renowned for half-full trains; and I don't think there's much scope for increasing the capacity much. That is a fair point. It also doesn't improve public transport in Chelsea. Frankly I doubt many of the inhabitants of that area give a monkeys about public transport. -- Spud |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
"Mike Bristow" wrote in message ... In article , d wrote: I can't see the need for crossrail 2. We already have Thameslink and in north london there's the moorgate line. I think those lines are pretty full in the peak. If its simply to improve the public transport in hackney then just build a new tube line or branch off the victoria line The victoria line isn't exactly renowned for half-full trains; and I don't think there's much scope for increasing the capacity much. It also doesn't improve public transport in Chelsea. according to the article that I read, removal of the station in Chelsea is being considered in order to keep CR2 on track, and it's something that is actually welcomed by the residents tim |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
On 2017-05-30 11:16:20 +0000, Roland Perry said:
In message , at 04:07:40 on Tue, 30 May 2017, Paul Corfield remarked: I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20 years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport investment. Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2 brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in its alleged benefit. Except that the toffs in Chelsea really don't want a station on CR2. |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
eastender wrote:
On 2017-05-30 11:16:20 +0000, Roland Perry said: In message , at 04:07:40 on Tue, 30 May 2017, Paul Corfield remarked: I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20 years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport investment. Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2 brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in its alleged benefit. Except that the toffs in Chelsea really don't want a station on CR2. Correct. They've been campaigning against it. They don't want the disruption of its construction, nor the subsequent ability of suburban plebs and lowlife to be whisked to their doorsteps. |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
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Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
In message
-septe mber.org, at 15:04:11 on Tue, 30 May 2017, Recliner remarked: Except that the toffs in Chelsea really don't want a station on CR2. Correct. They've been campaigning against it. They don't want the disruption of its construction, nor the subsequent ability of suburban plebs and lowlife to be whisked to their doorsteps. If it's like other such proposals in similar circumstances, what they don't like is the idea that lowlife can easily escape back to their homeland having burgled the premises in Chelsea. -- Roland Perry |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
wrote in message ... In article , (Roland Perry) wrote: In message , at 04:07:40 on Tue, 30 May 2017, Paul Corfield remarked: I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20 years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport investment. Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2 brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in its alleged benefit. The biggest set of beneficiaries are the 100 million passengers a year using Waterloo who will either get alternatives or much needed extra capacity. though it doesn't need to leave the mainline at Wimbledon and take a round the houses route to Chelsea via Balham to achieve that building the tunnel portal somewhere between Earlsfield and CJ would be sufficient |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
On Tue, 30 May 2017 11:57:49 -0500
wrote: In article , (Roland Perry) wrote: In message , at 04:07:40 on Tue, 30 May 2017, Paul Corfield remarked: I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20 years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport investment. Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2 brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in its alleged benefit. The biggest set of beneficiaries are the 100 million passengers a year using Waterloo who will either get alternatives or much needed extra capacity. If all CR2 is is another line into waterloo then they can save half the money and terminate it there. Also its been 10 YEARS since eurostar left waterloo and STILL the international platforms are out of use and if you go down there today you'll find the whole place is a building site. Quite what they needed to do to perfectly servicable platforms that required taking 10 years to design and take half the international section apart is anyones guess. If there was really concern about capacity at waterloo those platforms would have been put back into use within 6 months. -- Spud |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
In article , d () wrote:
On Tue, 30 May 2017 11:57:49 -0500 wrote: In article , (Roland Perry) wrote: In message , at 04:07:40 on Tue, 30 May 2017, Paul Corfield remarked: I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20 years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport investment. Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2 brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in its alleged benefit. The biggest set of beneficiaries are the 100 million passengers a year using Waterloo who will either get alternatives or much needed extra capacity. If all CR2 is is another line into waterloo then they can save half the money and terminate it there. Also its been 10 YEARS since eurostar left waterloo and STILL the international platforms are out of use and if you go down there today you'll find the whole place is a building site. Quite what they needed to do to perfectly servicable platforms that required taking 10 years to design and take half the international section apart is anyones guess. If there was really concern about capacity at waterloo those platforms would have been put back into use within 6 months. Of course it isn't, any more than most of the 100 million annual Waterloo passengers terminate their journeys there. You also seem blissfully unaware of the approach track to Waterloo which is where a lot of the work is needed to allow former International platforms designed for infrequent arrivals and departures to be used for a frequent suburban service. You do yourself no favours overlooking such factors. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
On Wed, 31 May 2017 04:39:38 -0500
wrote: You also seem blissfully unaware of the approach track to Waterloo which is where a lot of the work is needed to allow former International platforms designed for infrequent arrivals and departures to be used for a frequent suburban service. You do yourself no favours overlooking such factors. It didn't take 10 years to build it in the first place so don't tell me its taken 10 years to figure out how to rejig the track. The only reason its been sitting idle so long is utter incompetance at Network Rail. And as this photo proves they could have run trains into it ages ago if they'd wanted to without having to rebuild the thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:S...ng_platforms_2 1_and_22,_Waterloo_station_in_2015.jpg -- Spud |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
On 2017\05\31 09:05, tim... wrote:
wrote in message ... In article , (Roland Perry) wrote: In message , at 04:07:40 on Tue, 30 May 2017, Paul Corfield remarked: I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20 years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport investment. Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2 brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in its alleged benefit. The biggest set of beneficiaries are the 100 million passengers a year using Waterloo who will either get alternatives or much needed extra capacity. though it doesn't need to leave the mainline at Wimbledon and take a round the houses route to Chelsea via Balham to achieve that building the tunnel portal somewhere between Earlsfield and CJ would be sufficient CR2 plans to increase trains between Wimbledon and London, and will allow trains from Chessington and Epsom to get to London without sharing tracks with the lines from Surbiton. Starting the tunnel north of Wimbledon wouldn't allow any extra service to Waterloo... the trains from Wimbledon and the trains from Putney don't share tracks through Clapham Junction, because both routes have dedicated tracks to Waterloo. |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
"Basil Jet" wrote in message ... On 2017\05\31 09:05, tim... wrote: wrote in message ... In article , (Roland Perry) wrote: In message , at 04:07:40 on Tue, 30 May 2017, Paul Corfield remarked: I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20 years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport investment. Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2 brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in its alleged benefit. The biggest set of beneficiaries are the 100 million passengers a year using Waterloo who will either get alternatives or much needed extra capacity. though it doesn't need to leave the mainline at Wimbledon and take a round the houses route to Chelsea via Balham to achieve that building the tunnel portal somewhere between Earlsfield and CJ would be sufficient CR2 plans to increase trains between Wimbledon and London, and will allow trains from Chessington and Epsom to get to London without sharing tracks with the lines from Surbiton. as the bottleneck on the mainline runs all the way back to new Malden, where are the extra paths on that part going to come from to achieve that? Starting the tunnel north of Wimbledon wouldn't allow any extra service to Waterloo... no, but it would reduce the congestion at the throat as there would be less (can I use that word as Roland isn't watching me) trains there each morning It's few years since I travelled the mainline into Waterloo but recall having to wait there frequently in the past the trains from Wimbledon and the trains from Putney don't share tracks through Clapham Junction, because both routes have dedicated tracks to Waterloo. yes, everybody already knows that :-( |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
wrote in message ... On Tue, 30 May 2017 11:57:49 -0500 wrote: In article , (Roland Perry) wrote: In message , at 04:07:40 on Tue, 30 May 2017, Paul Corfield remarked: I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20 years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport investment. Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2 brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in its alleged benefit. The biggest set of beneficiaries are the 100 million passengers a year using Waterloo who will either get alternatives or much needed extra capacity. If all CR2 is is another line into waterloo then they can save half the money and terminate it there. Also its been 10 YEARS since eurostar left waterloo and STILL the international platforms are out of use and if you go down there today you'll find the whole place is a building site. Quite what they needed to do to perfectly servicable platforms that required taking 10 years to design and take half the international section apart they had to wait 9 years for it to become politically acceptable to confirm that the international trains weren't coming back :-) tim |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
In article , d () wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:S...pying_platform s_21_and_22,_Waterloo_station_in_2015.jpg Do you not realise that the approach to those platforms was a single track from and to the Linford St flyover? -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
On Wed, 31 May 2017 13:45:22 +0100, "tim..."
wrote: as the bottleneck on the mainline runs all the way back to new Malden, where are the extra paths on that part going to come from to achieve that? I think the plan was to add a 5th track from the tunnel portal to at least New Malden... Perhaps Hampton Court Junction. Richard. |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
On Wed, 31 May 2017 11:10:10 -0500
wrote: In article , d () wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:S...pying_platform s_21_and_22,_Waterloo_station_in_2015.jpg Do you not realise that the approach to those platforms was a single track from and to the Linford St flyover? Thats south of vauxhall, it has no bearing on the approach to waterloo and it doesn't take 10 years to fit some points between there and waterloo and in fact if you look on google maps you'll see plenty connecting the eurostar lines to the rest of the network. -- Spud |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
On Wednesday, 31 May 2017 12:46:15 UTC+1, wrote:
On Wed, 31 May 2017 04:39:38 -0500 wrote: You also seem blissfully unaware of the approach track to Waterloo which is where a lot of the work is needed to allow former International platforms designed for infrequent arrivals and departures to be used for a frequent suburban service. You do yourself no favours overlooking such factors. It didn't take 10 years to build it in the first place so don't tell me its taken 10 years to figure out how to rejig the track. The only reason its been sitting idle so long is utter incompetance at Network Rail. And as this photo proves they could have run trains into it ages ago if they'd wanted to without having to rebuild the thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:S...ng_platforms_2 1_and_22,_Waterloo_station_in_2015.jpg You seem to think that Network Rail had independence to just splash £700m on reopening Waterloo. It didn't. The responsibility for the delay sits with the DfT who sat on their hands for years and did nothing about expanding capacity into Waterloo. It was only the NR / SET alliance that started to push things along in terms of new and longer trains and the associated infrastructure. If the Government don't put requirements in the HLOS / SOFA process then they don't get done. Government have sat back and left the South Western franchise to toddle along for many years despite the fact that there has been very strong growth in demand including heavy weekend loadings and contra peak commuter flows (e.g out towards Brentford and Kew in the AM peak due to the media businesses located there) growing. The government then killed off the alliance by pulling NR back under DfT direct funding control. They then failed to secure a franchise extension with SWT (suspect both parties were rather awkward to be fair) so the franchise has had to be retendered. Bizarrely the handover occurs slap bang in the middle of the Waterloo blockade this August. I have also read somewhere else that the flyover near Stewarts Lane that Eurostar used to reach the South Eastern line was funded with EU money. If the tracks to that viaduct are disconnected before a certain point in time then the funding has to be returned to the EU. That may also be a factor in the delay on this scheme. Note this last sentence is speculation on my part before people start frothing at the mouth and blaming Brussels. -- Paul C via Google |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
In article , d () wrote:
On Wed, 31 May 2017 11:10:10 -0500 wrote: In article , d () wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:S...pying_platform s_21_and_22,_Waterloo_station_in_2015.jpg Do you not realise that the approach to those platforms was a single track from and to the Linford St flyover? Thats south of vauxhall, it has no bearing on the approach to waterloo and it doesn't take 10 years to fit some points between there and waterloo and in fact if you look on google maps you'll see plenty connecting the eurostar lines to the rest of the network. Yes, the single line runs through platform 1 at Vauxhall. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 01:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
Paul Corfield wrote: You seem to think that Network Rail had independence to just splash =C2=A37= 00m on reopening Waterloo. It didn't. The responsibility for the delay si= The points to NR exist, the platforms were perfectly servicable until they started to demolish part them (for whatever reason, another excuse to waste more taxpayers money) and train information boards were already fitted so apart from putting in some standard ticket gates what exactly needed to be done to "reopen" these platforms and use them? Answer - absolutely **** all. It was just incompetance and indifference all round. -- Spud |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
wrote:
On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 01:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Paul Corfield wrote: You seem to think that Network Rail had independence to just splash =C2=A37= 00m on reopening Waterloo. It didn't. The responsibility for the delay si= The points to NR exist, the platforms were perfectly servicable until they started to demolish part them (for whatever reason, another excuse to waste more taxpayers money) and train information boards were already fitted so apart from putting in some standard ticket gates what exactly needed to be done to "reopen" these platforms and use them? Answer - absolutely **** all. It was just incompetance and indifference all round. As usual, your ignorance is causing you to grossly oversimplify things. |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 15:11:16 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: wrote: On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 01:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Paul Corfield wrote: You seem to think that Network Rail had independence to just splash =C2=A37= 00m on reopening Waterloo. It didn't. The responsibility for the delay si= The points to NR exist, the platforms were perfectly servicable until they started to demolish part them (for whatever reason, another excuse to waste more taxpayers money) and train information boards were already fitted so apart from putting in some standard ticket gates what exactly needed to be done to "reopen" these platforms and use them? Answer - absolutely **** all. It was just incompetance and indifference all round. As usual, your ignorance is causing you to grossly oversimplify things. The infrastructure was in in place. Anything else is down to people. -- Spud |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
wrote:
On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 15:11:16 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: wrote: On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 01:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Paul Corfield wrote: You seem to think that Network Rail had independence to just splash =C2=A37= 00m on reopening Waterloo. It didn't. The responsibility for the delay si= The points to NR exist, the platforms were perfectly servicable until they started to demolish part them (for whatever reason, another excuse to waste more taxpayers money) and train information boards were already fitted so apart from putting in some standard ticket gates what exactly needed to be done to "reopen" these platforms and use them? Answer - absolutely **** all. It was just incompetance and indifference all round. As usual, your ignorance is causing you to grossly oversimplify things. The infrastructure was in in place. Anything else is down to people. No it wasn't. Take a look at what they're having to do in Waterloo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/reclin...57673819851723 |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 19:21:16 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: wrote: On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 15:11:16 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: wrote: On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 01:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Paul Corfield wrote: You seem to think that Network Rail had independence to just splash =C2=A37= 00m on reopening Waterloo. It didn't. The responsibility for the delay si= The points to NR exist, the platforms were perfectly servicable until they started to demolish part them (for whatever reason, another excuse to waste more taxpayers money) and train information boards were already fitted so apart from putting in some standard ticket gates what exactly needed to be done to "reopen" these platforms and use them? Answer - absolutely **** all. It was just incompetance and indifference all round. As usual, your ignorance is causing you to grossly oversimplify things. The infrastructure was in in place. Anything else is down to people. No it wasn't. Take a look at what they're having to do in Waterloo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/reclin...57673819851723 Yes I know they're doing all that, I work nearby. However given local services have run from those platforms on rare occasions these works are clearly a long way from being essential. As I said, the infrastructure was there and the delay was down to people in charge being dicks. -- Spud |
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
In message , at 13:33:11 on Fri, 2 Jun
2017, d remarked: As I said, the infrastructure was there and the delay was down to people in charge being dicks. Not bobs? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU-tuY0Z7nQ -- Roland Perry |
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